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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Really worried about my relationship with my daughter...

185 replies

TiredTeacherToday · 22/12/2024 08:29

My daughter is 18 and came home from university for Christmas last weekend.

She has always had quite a volatile personality and, although we've always been close, her mood has tended to dictate the atmosphere in the house at times. She can switch from delightful, reasonable, personable and loving in one second to the opposite in an instant without warning. There are no tangible or predictable 'triggers'. She switches without warning and once the black cloud/red mist has descended there's no way of de-escalating.

I'm a teacher, I know how to de-escalate a dysregulated child - what to and not to say and do - and how not to escalate it further but it's never been easy. This improved massively once her A Levels were over and she had matured hugely over the last 6 months before turning 18. We had a really lovely summer with relatively little conflict.

However, she has one friendship that seems to bring out the worst in her. I am NOT blaming this friend for my daughter's choices or behaviours but they are worse when she has been with her.

They have been friends with since starting secondary school. I don't really know her because she hadn't been round to the house at all until this summer. There are many reasons for this and none are because she hasn't been welcome. They are mainly because my daughter has wanted to keep some distance between her friend and her family. I'm only describing her circumstances because they feel relevant and give context to my daughter's behaviours. NOT because I am judging her based upon them.

Her friend is a very troubled young woman and has been dealt a really shit hand by life - she was removed from her parents care at 3 months old (drug use, DV and chaotic lifestyles. One parent and an older sibling are in prison). She has spent her teenage years being hospitalised for suicide attempts, absconding from care, moving children's homes etc.

She left care at 18 (she's just recently turned 19) and was allocated a room in supported accommodation - like a halfway house towards independence for careleavers. She left school with no qualifications but found a job. My daughter and another friend helped to make her room homely. She was really excited about a fresh start and it all seemed really promising. This was the first time I met her.

However, she only stayed there a few weeks before losing the room because she left. Ultimately, she is a very lost little girl who has experienced deep trauma and is desperate to be loved. She absconded from her various children's homes and this accommodation because she travels across the country to find her birth mother. Her mother moves between HMOs and areas and has no stability so she can't live with her. She has since left two more accommodations for the same reason.

Since leaving school, the disparity in their lives has become more amplified and more apparent.

Her friend has now moved to a completely different area of the country and in with her boyfriend of 6 or 7 weeks and his dad and I'll admit, I'm very concerned for her welfare. She's had a couple.of pregnancy 'scares' since my daughter left and a few of the girls she was in care with have had babies since leaving care - at least one has been removed and another is on a CP Plan - and she has talked about creating her own family. It's terribly sad and my daughter is understandably concerned that she is intending to become pregnant and can see how much their paths have diverged. She is very worried about her friend.

Her friend's life now centres around the 'drama' associated with a trauma informed chaotic lifestyle - bouts of homelessness; problems with benefits; problems with 'the social'; hers and her other friends' dysfunctional and often abusive relationships; day drinking; her pregnancy scares and her other friends' involvement with CP SWs; and her (understandable) anger towards her mother. There isn't much fun in her life. It's all bouncing from one crisis to the next, conflict, hostility and confrontation and her experiences are really the only conversation she has. Like I said, she is surviving. Not living. This is her normal and it's terrible.

So how does this impact the relationship between my daughter and me?

Well, when they have spent time together, my daughter expresses the same level of anger, aggression and hostility towards me as her friend does towards her own mother and 'authority figures' in her life. She can't seem to separate their different experiences.

She reacts to really inocuous things I say to her angrily and with hostility. She uses 'fighting talk' when she engages with me, and it comes out of nowhere. Eg she went out with this friend the other day to do chrostmas shopping and buy some toys for our pet (my daughter has really missed him while away). They both came back to the house and showed me what they'd bought. All full of happiness and fun - just like two 18/19 year olds who have spent a nice afternoon together.

One of the toys, our pet already has so, after saying all the right things about everything and it all being lovely and nice, I suggested she put that one toy away until he the other needed replacing expecting her to say, "Oh, ok. No problem." Instead, she unnecessarily argued with me that he didn't already have one and then started 'posturing' and accusing me of trying to be a 'bigman' (which, my son tells me, is language used by certain groups of people when they are spoiling for a fight). Just out of the blue and unnecessarily aggressive. She went upstairs and sent me texts telling me she wasn't coming home at Easter and as soon as she was out of university, I'd never have to see her again. She didn't speak to me for nearly 24 hours. She frequently threatens going nc with me.

I checked the time stamps of her messages telling me they were in a taxi 5 mins from home and the one of her telling me she wasn't coming home at Easter and there were 11 minutes between them.

I have no problem with her moaning about me to her friends - we all do that. But she also talks to her older brother and he is also very concerned.

He says that the person she describes when talking to him about me isn't one he recognises at all. He doesn't ever tell me what she's said, because she speaks to him in confidence, but he has said it has gone way beyond gripes about me reminding her to keep her room tidy and she speaks about me quite venomously. And with all the anger and hostility her friend talks about her life. He describes it as though, when she has spent time with this friend and been exposed to her high conflict conversations and relationships she sees our relationship through the same lens. Yet, she has also told me that she knows this friendship won't survive long term because of her friend's dysfunctional world view.

I don't know what to do. After living without any conflict for 3 months, I'm finding its return quite difficult. I feel anxious all the time and, when I hear her key in the door, my heart pounds because I don't know which version of her I'm going to get, whether or not it's going to change or what's going to trigger it.

She's thriving at university - doing well on her course so far, has settled in well. She has a boyfriend who she describes as treating her well, lovely friends, has some great flatmates, has joined a couple of clubs, and has a part time job she can return to in the holidays. We speak on the phone and message each other.

She worked hard to save for university and is is loving the independence. I'm so bloody proud of her and I have told her so.

But she's come home and I feel like I'm living in Trainspotting. It's gone way beyond normal returning from university and being an arse-ness.

I don't know what to do but I'm really concerned that the narrative she has created in her head is the one she will remember. She's battling an adversary who only exists in her imagination!

She refuses to do anything family related with us (and has for some.time now). But then accuses me of not including her. She is creating a narrative of dysfunction that no one else recognises.

I'm worried that, we won't reach the other side of this because she will have withdrawn from me so much and created such a distance that she won't know how to get back.

I don't know what to do.

I'm really sorry this is so long!

OP posts:
Lemonbreath · 22/12/2024 11:01

BambiOnIce80 · 22/12/2024 10:52

This is interesting. My GM was a model employee too (although she worked part-time rather than full time, so maybe easier to regulate herself?). She was a really hard worker and really in demand from her managers.

I don’t know all the ins and outs I don’t understand enough about it. My DD does not really treat anyone else badly apart from me and her sister. She finds having a boyfriend really tough as she wants to act out towards me at times but doesn’t want him to see it. She can’t combine me with her normal outside life well at all. So often you see she is incredibly tense if the 2 lives meet and like a coiled spring. Even when I was getting along with her dad around her she would be the same way

The only time she’s really relaxed with me is if she hasn’t had a bad or overwhelming day, there is NO overlap with her other life, I am not ‘provoking’ her and I am giving her 100% my undivided attention. We have actually even been on short breaks away together and we had a great time.

TiredTeacherToday · 22/12/2024 11:08

Newgirls · 22/12/2024 10:37

I think remember it is term 1 (is that right?) and she has a lot to process. Sounds like she is doing well with friends, boyfriend, course etc

so very early days for her and she is probably exhausted from it all

I worry if you rush to suggest a diagnosis from her she will think ‘Aghh mum interfering again’ so maybe just ride it out this holiday with food and films etc and the sensible suggestions above about how to handle rude comments

The problem is that these personality traits have been observable since she was a young toddler and the behaviours have been present throughout.

The only reason I'm talking about her being at university is that that is where we are now.

This isn't a new thing but its definitely become increasingly obvious over the last 10 years.

It's just that, having had a 3 month total break from it, it's a shock to the system to be back in the middle of it. Beforehand, it was just daily life, and now it isn't.

OP posts:
Mmhmmn · 22/12/2024 11:11

It sounds like the key might be your DS. The fact she confides in her brother who doesn't recognise her characterisation of you, and that she presumably looks up to him to some degree suggests to me that it will be up to him to give her a dose of reality: that she's behaving like an arsehole, that she has a loving mother and safe home life and to get a grip and stop the tantrums.

It doesn't sound lke she's going down the same life route as her friend at least.

I just think she needs someone outside of your relationship to point out that she's behaving badly to make her think. Re. the dog toy thing, beware of criticising unnecessarily - instead of pointing out that it already has one, you could maybe just have said he loves that. That said, I'm not a fan of people having to self-censor to avoid an unstable person kicking off. We weren't there so it's hard to know what your tone and communication style is like.

You might also consider asking 'why are you behaving like that?' when she kicks off but only you will know whether that's likely to give her pause or not.

devilspawn · 22/12/2024 11:14

missod · 22/12/2024 09:08

Some vastly differing views on here, I think I'd go down the shit sandwich route.

I love you very, very much.
Your present behaviour towards me is unacceptable and it has to stop.
I'm always here for you if you need me.

I'd be tempted to put it in a text.

I hate things like that, it always comes across as blatantly manipulative and insincere. It's almost like a form of emotional abuse.

DownThePubWithStevieNicks · 22/12/2024 11:24

Is it the done thing now to put up with, indeed pander to, rude and abusive behaviour from teen (adult!) children? She follows you around verbally abusing you, and you just la la la?

I’d be challenging it at the time, and when she goes back to uni in Jan I’d agree with her that it’s best she doesn’t return at Easter unless she can be a civil housemate. Her uni housemates wouldn’t put up with that crap, so it’s a choice to take it out on you.

Newgirls · 22/12/2024 11:28

maybe then after Xmas have a chat out on a walk about some of her comments. When she’s had some sleep and rest. They grow up and leave home for a reason and im
sure you will have lovely moments again

RandomMess · 22/12/2024 12:18

@TiredTeacherToday all of this description and the ones with similar DDs is my youngest ADHD and highly likely ASD.

It's horrendous and heartbreaking. I occasionally get the acknowledgment that she was a VERY difficult teenager (to a lesser extent still is at 19).

My eldest loved more with her Dad and did grow out of it and we have a lovely relationship since her later 20s. Also ND.

My diagnosis has come late in life too, it's been difficult. Menopause has highlighted to me loud and clear that we had/have PMDD.

Fortunately the middle 2 present their ND differently.

Bee23 · 22/12/2024 12:57

💐 to you OP, there are no easy answers.

One thing to add to the thoughtful and supportive comments you’ve had - look up RSD (rejection sensitivity). It might go some way towards explaining incidents like the dog toy.

Secretriver · 22/12/2024 16:34

@TiredTeacherToday I feel bad that I have found your post (& others with similar experiences) almost comforting in that my dd sounds very similar. We have managed the walking on egg shells, sudden mood changes, following around to continue an argument all while presenting beautifully in other settings (kind, hard working, thoughtful). However in our case dd had a late diagnosis of autism at 17. She’s now 20 and has also been away for her first uni term. I am also finding the behaviour so much harder after a relative break and am noticing how much I accommodate and ‘work around’ her to avoid a problem.

I work in mental health and felt/feel very ashamed of not realising that she was ND. However I also know that I have probably always accommodated her needs quite a lot without even realising I was doing it.

I’m now trying to work out how much of that accommodating is “healthy” and will be part of her learning to manage her own needs to avoid overwhelm in the future and how much is “unhealthy” in as much as it allows her to treat us very badly in a way no one else would probably ever tolerate. It is very very hard to know!

Lemonbreath · 22/12/2024 20:24

@Secretriver dont feel bad. Along with OP I am in the same boat, when they DONT grow out of things as you expected them to, and they are different to their peers you have a WTF realisation. These girls expend all their efforts to mask their symptoms, it’s awful for them but this is what has made it so much harder to identify. I kicked myself for years at not pushing my health visitor - by age 2, I knew something wasn’t right but they kept fobbing me off, it was all about boys with autism back then. All they asked me was did they like repetitive play with things like wheels or obsession with cars. No she didn’t! But she had so many more traits that now, are so obvious and wouldn’t be missed.

These girls of ours that are late teens/early 20’s did miss out, because we didn’t know what we know now.

I only managed to get my DD diagnosed with ADHD because her school work got so bad and I had to fight for that. She never got to the ASD assessment stage. My DD has what I believe to be very strong PDA traits. It could help to read up about PDA as there is a lot of helpful support about how to navigate it

Wayk · 22/12/2024 22:02

Do not feel bad. Just ignore any rudeness and keep the door open for her.

kittybiscuits · 22/12/2024 22:13

I identify very much with what you've said, @TiredTeacherToday and with many of the other comments. I'm also a mental health professional, @Secretriver Eerily familiar. Would anyone be up for a supportive thread in a quieter place? Love to everyone who is struggling with this.

TiredTeacherToday · 23/12/2024 02:29

Mmhmmn

I hate involving her brother, tbh, but she does trust and look up to him. She's not able to take.on board what he says when she gets angry though. I don't know if she can't control ot or whether she chooses not to. It's true that she doesn't behave like it with anyone else though. So she can control it to some degree. Challenging her at the time doesn't help. It just escalates the situation.

OP posts:
TiredTeacherToday · 23/12/2024 03:03

Newgirls · 22/12/2024 11:28

maybe then after Xmas have a chat out on a walk about some of her comments. When she’s had some sleep and rest. They grow up and leave home for a reason and im
sure you will have lovely moments again

The problem now is this.

She has been home for a week. Due to our respective work schedules, I've only seen her to say goodbye to her Sunday, Monday, Tuesday and Wednsday mornings amd not at all those evenings because she was working.

I didn't see her on Wednesday evening because she went to her dad's. On Thursday, she had this friend round, and they stayed in her room. That's OK because we had vague plans to spend Friday evening together (she wouldn't commit to them or even talk about how we could spend the evening). But Friday she brought this friend around again and I saw her for approximately 5 minutes before she went upstairs and sent the text about not coming home at Easter and I didn't see her for the rest of the night.

On Saturday morning, she was very cold/hostile when I spoke with her and she wouldn't engage at all. I saw her for a couple of minutes in which she refused to speak to me and left with her friend to meet her brother.

She came home around 2.30 with her brother and was absolutely fine with me. Like nothing had happened. The three of us had a lovely hour together before she left for work. I didn't see her after work because I went to bed at 12.15 and she wasn't home.

Today, I went out with my partner, his mum, and my son. She was, of course, invited but (as anticipated) made plans with a diffeent friend because she refuses to go anywhere or do anything with me.

I was expecting to see her this evening but she didn't come home. Her brother advised that she had gone to her dad's and has told them both that she's not spending Christmas day at home as planned and is going to her dad's instead because she refuses to spend Christmas day with me. She hasn't communicated any of this to me.

She has made arrangements to see my brother and her cousin tomorrow. My brother is picking her up from here so she'll get home in time for him to pick her up and then she is working in the evening.

She is spending Christmas Eve working and will then be going straight to her dad's for dinner and then, presumably, staying there.

She already had plans to see her dad on Boxing Day. We are going to my brothers on Friday. She isn't coming because she is working. We have plans for my son and my partners children (all in early 20s) to come over on Saturday evening. She will be working until 10 and has already told me that she's got no intention of spending any time with any of us.

So that'll be the second week.

She already has plans to go and visit her boyfriend for a few days in week 3 and will be working too.

Week 4, I'll be back at work and I won't have spent any time with her at all. She has planned to go back to university on Saturday 11th.

She doesn't want to spend any time with me. And, all she will remember of this holiday is that she didn't see me at all because she.was so angry with me.

My son didn't tell me what was said when they went out on Saturday but he said that, in summary, my assessment of the impact of the relationship with this particular friend isn't far off the mark. He spoke with her and challenged some of her assertions but she was so angry that she wouldn't even consider what he was saying.

For those asking about boundaries and discipline. Of course those were in place when she was at home and younger! She hasn't just been allowed to ride roughshod over other people (well, me) but it was unbelievably difficult at the time because these outbursts and threats aren't new but she's now an adult.

Other than telling her she isn't welcome to return at Easter, there isn't much I can do. And, as much as I want to do that right now because I don't want to be living with this and walking on eggshells again, it isn't going to help.

OP posts:
TiredTeacherToday · 23/12/2024 03:26

Secretriver

That all sounds so familiar! 😕

I know it's hard because you can only ever know one side of a story on here, and it's impossible to accurately communicate a lifetime with someone in a few words. And mother and daughter issues are pretty much always regarded as being the mother's fault.

I'm not sure she'd be receptive to the suggestion of being ND or being assessed at any point tbh. I think she'd see it as a way of me trying to 'blame' her for something that is really down to me being a shit mum.

But it's been on my mind today and I can see how there are other things I could have missed over the years. Eg she does typical 'bridge burning' with her friends. She has cut all of her friends off for the slightest of transgressions and now really only has 3 friends left here - all are ND (2 ASD and 1 ADHD). I assumed it was because she gave these friends more leeway but I'm wondering now if there might be more to it.

She shops for clothes and buys thing she likes the look of but pretty much always wears oversized joggers and hoodies because they're more comfortable and she doesn't like the feel of other clothes.

She feels hugely empathetic towards other people and told me when she was younger that she experienced physical pain when she felt empathy. I know that there are times when she's been angry and verbally aggressive towards me when she's actually felt empathy towards me (eg like her dad's wedding) but hasn't been able to handle it and taken it out on me.

There are probably other things too.

OP posts:
ThatWildJadeTurtle · 23/12/2024 03:56

It really sounds like this so called friend of your DD is having a very negative affect on her. All of the things you sheltered her from in her life, it seems this friend has brought about front and centre to your DDs perceptions of other peoples worlds. This friend could also be very slyly manipulative in how she portrays her own situation to mirror your DDs life. The fact that she feels comfortable to basically square up to you by calling you a ‘bigman’ shows concerning signs of a lack of respect towards you despite the life that have provided. I think the fact that your DD keeps bringing this friend up is telling you that her life is affecting your DD negatively, she must think this friend is ‘cool’ so is trying to mimic her life and attitude towards people with who she feels safest with: you. Your DD sounds like an extremely caring, bright young lady just by you saying that she helped this ‘friend’ settle into her new room and made it homely. Please don't be hard on your DD and know that this will pass, keep reassuring and loving your DD and she will soon see that it is you who will always be there to love and protect her. Also, it might help to counter-act any possible manipulation by the friend to illuminate to your DD just how lucky she is to have an active role of parents in her life. She had witnessed first-hand how many others have not been as fortunate as she is, she doesn't need to adopt street lingo or create drama. Perhaps because she has not been exposed to the kind of lifestyle required to adopt these traits she's acting out of immaturity, she is only 18 and will eventually realise this through her own journey but always stand by her as her own personal counsel that gently reminds her of how lucky she is ❤️

Octavia64 · 23/12/2024 04:01

I have a child with AuDHD

Diagnosed late (at uni)

You could be describing my daughter.

I would echo others that there is likely some neurodiversity here.

In which case standard "consequences" are not likely to work.

In many ways the fact that you are identifying it after she has been away for some time and you are now recognising it is not a NT presentation is classic.

However she is at uni and at least semi independent. I suspect you are not in a position to discuss potential neurodiversity with her and in any case there is no treatment for ASD and the meds for adhd can be complex.

I understand that you have a perspective on her behaviour. ND people often see the world significantly differently and one of the classic signs is a deficit in social understanding, as well as problems expressing and understanding their own emotions.

The knickers incident is classic. You understand her emotions and where her behaviour is coming from. She does not. You are trying to communicate at a level that she just isn't capable of accessing.

Individuals with ND usually need to go through a process of trying to identify emotions as they experience them, this can take months to years (to never in some cases) to reliably happen.

Once they have that (if they have that) then they can start to look at what triggers various emotions.

I think you may need to rebuild your model of how your daughter thinks.

Colinfromaccounts · 23/12/2024 04:03

Honestly I think you need to be tougher with her. She’s got issues with her Dad but takes it all out on you. Rules and boundaries. No more sympathy. Either she’s nice to you or she’s not welcome in your house. Not in a punitive way, let her know this is how it’s going to be and set clear boundaries.

Fluffycloudsfloatinginthesky · 23/12/2024 04:09

My DD is ND. She will also overreact to a normal comment asking her not to do something. It turns into you hate me I'm a horrible person.

I also see that when she's worried about something it comes out as anger about something else - when she was little it always came out as sensory issues - in her case socks.

I would say most of her friends are ND.

Fluffycloudsfloatinginthesky · 23/12/2024 04:14

@kittybiscuits I would be up for a supportive thread. My DD is diagnosed Dyspraxic but I am getting nowhere trying to get a referral for anything else despite family history.

BarkLife · 23/12/2024 04:53

Btw OP I agree that the friend is the problem. Your DD has great empathy but poor personal boundaries, and she 'becomes' the person she's closest to. This is classic ASD behaviour.

I hope you manage to have a peaceful Christmas.

kittybiscuits · 23/12/2024 05:12

The comments are very close to home for me. Issues going back to very early childhood. DD is late 20s now and I have hoped so much things would settle down and she would grow out of them, but although they have slowed, the outbursts continue. Any challenges to awful behaviour are met with attack, rage, suggestions she is being abused, periods of estrangement, telling others about perceived abused. Any attempt at reconciliation is met with an expectation that I apologise for things that simply didn't happen. Not difference-of-perception - much more extreme than that. It's all played out quite publicly with posts on social media. Always saying she's being abused and suggesting I have estranged from her. I wonder about ASD and EUPD, but she does seem to be able to contain her emotions much better around other people. There is a lot of simmering rage and resentment though. It seems only I was ever on the receiving end of full attack, as far as I know. On one occasion mid 20s she spoke about it, acknowledged the issues and asked me what I thought was wrong with her, but went through the whole cycle again after on several occasions and continues to talk about being abused.

I echo the comments about how exhausting it is to walk on eggshells. It's had a devastating effect on her sibling's mental health. A trusted person at school, where her behaviour was immaculate (but she alwaysstruggledwithfriendships), introduced me to the phrase 'street angel, home devil'. So many posters on this thread have made comments that are absolutely on the money. I especially think there's someone in my DD's life who has influence on the narrative. When he perceives his parents are being difficult, my DD invariably starts to act out. When DD is around, I never know where she will be, she disappears for hours sometimes when we go places together, then says it didn't happen.

I think it's only now that self preservation is starting to kick in for me. I just can't live with the stress of visits, the uncertainty and unpredictability. When she's good, she's very very good.

theculture · 23/12/2024 05:56

I have 14 year old being suggested by the school to follow up on possible ND (out of UK so she has started high school and is not coping with her behaviour but doing well in exams)
This thread has resonated so much, the knicker situation, the flipping into anger and the unjustified blame
It has been really good to hear the experience especially that of giving space for her to explain her situation rather than jump in and try to manage it. I have seen that my comfort setting of 'diagnose a problem' followed by talking through possible solutions, actions, tasks overloads her and inflames the situation but it's so hard to stop 

I think I would in your case back off and accept that she won't be visiting at Easter and she hopefully she will come to a more rounded way of thinking. It sounds like she is working hard at maintaining her relationship with the wider family who love and respect you so perhaps you could let them parent a bit by proxy, keeping communication open with her.
. . . But only an opinion on the internet!

@kittybiscuits would like to join a thread

BonneMaman77 · 23/12/2024 06:32

About Christmas, as she believes you don’t care, how about asking to have coffee telling her that you do care. That you miss spending time with her. That you would like her to spend Christmas as planned. Nothing else. Just that topic.

If she wants to tell you what an arse you’ve been, great then ask her to explain it to you. Your response ir behaviour she finds rude and what and how she would prefer that you do respond. Don’t defend yourself or explain yourself at any point.

A time for her to talk and feel listened? I think you both may benefit from therapy but to get there you’ll need to emphasise you do care and listen.

user1492757084 · 23/12/2024 06:40

It's hard. You are doing your best. You are being thoughtful in your engagements with her.
Maybe stick to your calm usual plans but also, this year, ask DD what she would like to do for part of Christmas/Boxing Day and go along with that. (It will surprise you.) Show her that you can all hear her and spend time with her.
You could also ask her which food she would mostly like for Christmas and help her make it to add to the feast.