Are there any good men left?

[TeamCurlies]

I'm in my late thirties, two children and 2 years post divorce. I'm ready to find love again.

I'm on two dating sites and I've been on one date in the last 6 months and all I see is red flags everywhere.

I can't help feeling that first marriages for most men have failed for a reason. I know you could say the same for women but it's well known and experienced that most marriages fail because of men. I can't imagine there are many men my age yet to commit for the first time?

Looking around at my friends, the ones in happy marriages are generally with Christian men who have strong moral and family values and take their marriage vows seriously. I am not a Christian.

I went on a date with one man who was still bitter with his ex wife 5 years post divorce which I felt was a major red flag.

I feel like I've missed the boat.
My ex was a disappointing choice from the beginning I now realise.
What is the likely background for a good man who might make a good husband at my age? I can't imagine that many men are wanting to commit for the first time? Has anyone found a good man post divorce at my age? Where might I find one?! Surely if they were a good family man, their wives would have kept them in the first place?!

Maybe I'm just being cynical but I'd love some advice!

Exactly that! 💯 And it just shows how statistics can be easily misinterpreted.

My friend's husband left her for another woman. He now has a new family with her but still couldn't be bothered to file for divorce.

Initially my friend wanted to wait for him to do it but she gave up after a while as she didn't want to have financial ties with him.

According to statistics she "indicated divorce ", when in reality it was him who left and ended relationship. She only did the admin.

I agree. I’m in my 30s and date man slightly younger than me in their early 30s although I did one date one man 5 years older than me who was lovely.

My reasoning is mainly I’ve never been married and have no kids and there’s more chance of an early 30s man being never married /no kids than men in their 40s.

Are the divorce rates for all male marriages very low and the divorce rates for all female much higher?
There is something going on, but what it is is open to interpretation.

@Sweden99

Marriage is generally much harder work for women

That makes sense, and would explain why same sex marriages with women have a high divorce rate.
I am not sure it is definite.

google 'mumsnet left a good guy' - I often see threads with people asking about leaving a partner who is 'decent' but just don't feel they are in love anymore. loads of threads about people who want to leave is prefaced with 'no cheating, he is a good dad, no abuse ect'. Women can be massive romantics - when the 'spark' goes from a marriage, they question it, they want to be with 'the one'.

I also see threads constantly where people advise to LTB over potentially smallish things in 10+ year marriages, without even working on them.

(There is def an issue with men on the dating scene, but I also wonder about increasingly high standards in relationships. We all come with baggage, being screwed up in our own particular ways. Working on that together and growing as people is part of relationship imo)

You need to be fussy! But maybe change your outlook if possible. I am in a similar situation to you. At first I saw dating as a tick box exercise to get myself out there. But I have had around 10 first dates in a year. I now go into it thinking if I have a fun night great. I have met a few possibilities that could be bf material. A few decent guys who just weren’t t for me.

I met my husband when we were 35. I had a child. He didn't anf was happy not having any. Online too. I met some right arseholes before then.

No need to date crusty 10-20 years older than you when you can date crispy 10-20 years younger. I dated both demographics- younger men win by miles- more generous, better personalities, better bodies and better performance in bed. There is no upside for me personally to date an older guy.

The good men settled down in their 20s while you were chasing bad boys.

Totally agree. People divorce for many different reasons and not all of them are a huge drama like an affair or abuse.

Often a LTR just runs its course as we get older and go in different directions.

The majority of my divorced friends are still amicable with their ex.

The one pattern i definitely see in my circle is that regardless of who instigated the divorce, it’s always the man who moves onto another relationship quicker whereas the woman stays single and embraces her freedom.

Gay marriages are different issue.
The fact remains, that in many cases women don't initiate end of marriage, they just do the paperwork. That doesn't mean women are not more likely to end relationships but statistics are hugely exaggerated based on who does the admin.

It really depends where you live.

That's true - none of my London based school friends are married or have kids at 34

Haha! Even if we extend this to early 30s, looking at the DPs of people I know I would not describe all of them as the best... Depends. Maybe you meant that the women settled?

Same for men I think , why date a middle aged woman, when you can date a younger,more attractive one , better in bed etc etc

It really does.
If a man's career is as good as it is likely to get at 22, he will likely get married then. If not, later, it seems. I think @User135644 is over from a red pill site.

@Bibi12 I am sure it is very complicated. I also think it is more complicated than you review also (because you summarised in a few words rather than because you do not have the depth of thought, which I am sure you do). Danish men are more likely than Englishmen to initiate divorce, British women more likely than Danish women. It seem to stay than way in Danish British marriages. So I think there are a few factors. The issue here is that it often gets attached to a moral judgement, which is not helpful.

@Bibi12 Gay/lesbian marriages and divorce rates are interesting. But you can draw whatever conclusions you want to suite your argument.

Gay men are far less likely to get divorced, But married/coupled up gay men are far more likely to have (e.g.) open relationships of one form or another than lesbians. They also (in my purely personal non-statistically relevant experience) seem to see cheating etc as less of a deal breaker in a relationship. Whereas women only couples are more likely to see cheating as a reason to split up but also maybe less likely to seek other partners (or maybe they are just really good at hiding it).

Of course these are generalisations. Not all gay men are promiscuous. Not all gay women are monogamous. But if you were to use it try to draw conclusions about men/women in general: maybe women rate e.g. fidelity higher than men. But even if you extrapolate to straight couples** I don't know if that really helps decide who is "at fault" for the divorce rate. Is it Ian's fault for constantly cheating on Sandra, or is it Sandra's fault because she divorced Ian for cheating even though Ian would never have actually left Sandra. Is it Claires fault for divorcing Adam because they have grown so far apart/she thought she would be happier single or should she have stayed married to him but had affairs and long emotional romances behind his back. Or at the very least moved in with another man and let Adam decide whether to start divorce proceedings

**Also I don't know if it does work for straight couples - because lots of men would NOT be happy if their wife was off seeing other blokes (reasonably). And have concerns about paternity of children etc which aren't an issue for 2 men.

@biscuitandcake Thanks, very well written.
There is a danger in a association with certain groups and divorce equates to shame for those groups.
My ex-wife now has a job, does her own housework and have to take responsibility for herself. She is massively better off without me.
Certainly groups are more associated with divorce, roughly by sex, nationality and generation (though not sexuality so much). That is not a moral judgement on them.

I was just joking really but tradtionally most serious people settled down when young and then stayed together. These days people don't settle down young and they often don't stay together either when they do.

Yes.
I actually know someone from another country/culture who doesn't believe in divorce. Her husband is truly awful though. She has arranged things so that they are in different countries to each other and is living a very happy life (he doesn't know how carefully this was arranged. I think he is quite happy too living in another country, having affairs his wife "doesn't know about" while she looks after their kid etc)
So statistically they are a long-term married couple...

@Fs365 If you can get it- go for it .

I guess my point was, that filing for divorce is not the same as initiating end of marriage, yet that's how statistics are misinterpreted.
For example men who leave their wives and start new relationships, will often wait for their ex to deal with admin of divorce. She's the one taking legal action but the man already left. He was the one who ended the marriage and moved on, not her. I know countless examples of the above scenario.

Divorce statistics don't tell who left the marriage, they only tell who took care of legal affairs. And its ofen women. Maybe because legal side of divorce concerns and benefits women more then men and maybe because women do more admin or maybe both.

It doesn't surprise me at all that Danish men are more likely to initiate divorce then English ones. Danish marriages are more financially equal and divorces are 50/50.

But then again, I think divorce procedure it's just that - a legal procedure. The breakdown of marriage usually happens much earlier and the person who finally files for legal divorce is not necessarily the same person who initiated the break down of marriage. Women are generally much more concerned about legal side because they are more vulnerable and have more to gain.

@Bibi12 You make very astute points and thank you for this discussion. There does seem to be positive association with divorce and British women far more than with British men.
This is either:

1. British men make the world's most amazing spouses (amy we agree to rule this out)
2. Something else

I am going for option 2.
From my own experience of only a few nations, only as a Gen Xer and typically in a middle class environ, I can make a guess, but it is likely wrong. Sorry about that.
My own experience was that I was in a completely one-way marriage and I as a man felt like an utter failure because of that. That is (and it is an embarrassing confession) toxic masculinity. Our (Scandinavian) marriage counsellor encouraged me to accept I only had half the responsibility and power and my ex-wife to accept that she did have some power and responsibility. Our marriage counsellor considered emotional labour of the housework that my wife did worthless as I had the responsibility for doing it physically.

Had it been less patriarchal in my attitudes, I would not have had the toxic masculinity to take full responsibility and kept a miserable marriage alive that was good for both of us.

Had I been more patriarchal, I would have seen it as her being useless and told her to sling her hook straight off, without bothering with understanding, self-examination and trying to work it out.

I think I had the Goldilocks British level of patriarchy which kept the marriage alive until I got over it. But it was not a positive attribute and I learnt a lot from Nordic attitude.

...In conclusion (sorry for hte thread drift) there are great patners out there, but they are hard to find. Good luck to the OP!