Are there any good men left?

[TeamCurlies]

I'm in my late thirties, two children and 2 years post divorce. I'm ready to find love again.

I'm on two dating sites and I've been on one date in the last 6 months and all I see is red flags everywhere.

I can't help feeling that first marriages for most men have failed for a reason. I know you could say the same for women but it's well known and experienced that most marriages fail because of men. I can't imagine there are many men my age yet to commit for the first time?

Looking around at my friends, the ones in happy marriages are generally with Christian men who have strong moral and family values and take their marriage vows seriously. I am not a Christian.

I went on a date with one man who was still bitter with his ex wife 5 years post divorce which I felt was a major red flag.

I feel like I've missed the boat.
My ex was a disappointing choice from the beginning I now realise.
What is the likely background for a good man who might make a good husband at my age? I can't imagine that many men are wanting to commit for the first time? Has anyone found a good man post divorce at my age? Where might I find one?! Surely if they were a good family man, their wives would have kept them in the first place?!

Maybe I'm just being cynical but I'd love some advice!

The thing is, what are you looking for? The red flags for someone in their 20s looking to settle down, have a family and buy a first home with their partner are totally different to the red flags for someone who already has children and a home and just wants some nice sex and to go out and have some fun.

Objectively speaking a man might think exactly the same about the dating he has to deal with🤷🏻

@SE473 whilst I'm glad the lowering of standards worked for you and your relationship, you are still in the honeymoon period.

The real hard work comes in post-baby. When you have a C-section and can't drive for 6 weeks and neither can your husband and you run out of nappies and the nearest store is 2 miles away, you may regret him not having his driving license.

When you get to 3 months post-partum and have to return to work because you're the bigger earner and you really want a bit more time at home with your baby and for your body to recover.

When your DP refuses to do night wakings because his physical job leaves him too tired and he never hears the baby cry, so you're doing every night shift as well as a full day's work.

When childcare is more than his take home salary, but he still wants to work and so you're using your salary to pay for two adults and a child. Or he does stay at home with the baby, but you wish it could be you, even if just for a few months more, and you start to resent him.

When you end up doing all the organising, life admin and paperwork, because you're "just better at it" and essentially you end up being the sole adult in the partnership.

I'm hoping none of the above happens to you, but it does happen to lots of women, you read about it on here all the time. And I'm not saying women with equal/high earning partners don't suffer the same issues, but many are made a lot easier with a bit of savings, a driving licence and a decent set of educational qualifications.

I think most women on here haven't got too high standards, they're just looking for a man who brings an equal amount to the table.

Surely if they were a good family man, their wives would have kept them in the first place?!
"Kept them"? How do you do that? Dog collars? Obviously there are also men who leave their disappointing wives.

You're a divorcee. The men you talk to don't have any guarantee that the divorce is all your ex's fault and you are a "good woman".

Your on mumsnet, of course its his fault. One of the main things I learned on mumsnet is how many seem to not communicate with their partners or don't tolerate differences. Its not uncommon to hear of posters deciding to leave their partner because he's boring, settled into dad mode, or they want more fun sex. I'm surprised so many men willingly date divorcees, but then again what's the alternative.

@Aquamarine1029

"Far too many women choose unsavoury/unsuitable men because they think these men will change for the better once married/they have children. This is rarely ever the case. If all women fully realised that what you see is what you get, a massive amount of failed marriages could be avoided. "

Sound advice.

Thank you for your concern, but we’re fine. He has his driving licence now, we’re living in a lovely home which we own. We’re planning to share parental leave 50:50 (my choice because I love my job and don’t want to me a SAHM) and we share other tasks equally. I do more of the admin because he struggles with it, but he does all of the cooking, for example, because it’s not what I enjoy and am good at.
I don’t feel at all that I’ve lowered my standards as you say, my standard was always to find a loving, supportive, loyal partner and best friend. But of course different things are important to different people. If someone wants a rich man that gives them a luxury lifestyle so they can stop working and love is secondary, then by all means, these women should go for that. Good for me that many think like that, otherwise my DH wound probably been snatched up in this twenties.

Why is it that single men in their 30s-40s are labelled as dregs, serial cheats, wrong'uns, etc, but there's no self-reflection on single women after that age?

I think others have hit the nail on the head though. Chances are the single men are choosing to be single, while the single women (statistically) are going to be mothers by that age, and most men don't fancy that complication.

I think you may be right. So they try to date younger women. Which works for many men in their 30s and 40s.

It stops working when men hit their 50s and 60s because it's then the women in their 40s who would rather stay single than date these old men.

Yes there are good men left.

We've been left jaded after a messy separation/ divorce.

We've managed to square our finances, come to some kind of arrangement to see the kids (often with a not particularly reasonable ex), have decent jobs and kept in reasonably good shape. Take away the group of men that all women swipe on and I suspect that's the group you're realistically looking at unless you're lucky.

But this group of men have been through it and are too smart to be caught out in the same way. Whilst the scales will in theory always favour women on the apps the reality is often these types of men get enough likes and dont need many dates as in person there's a recognition they are a good catch. You're better in person etc.

I think there's often a failure for women to really recognise their own faults. They often see themselves as the prize, how can they possibly be the red flag etc.

whilst I'm glad the lowering of standards worked for you and your relationship

it’s good to see that Hypergamy is alive and well in 2024, just because a man has a lower educational record than yourself, or reading comprehension issues, does that mean he is going to be less of a partner or are you just a snob?

@SE473 you've misunderstood my post. I'm not saying that women are looking for a luxury lifestyle, I'm saying they want equality from a man.

If a woman owns a home, has a driving license and earns £X per year, why shouldn't want to match with someone who has/does the same? I'll bet you find life easier now that you can both drive for example.

And again, I'm really pleased it's going well for you, but you're projecting a version of your future that may not happen when the baby arrives.

You say you don't want to be a SAHM, but many women change their minds (or at least want a longer Mat leave than they'd planned) when the baby arrives.

You're assuming that you and the baby will both be healthy post-birth. What if that's not the case and you need a longer time off work, does his income allow for that?

Again, I think you're right that a caring, kind man is exactly what you want in a life partner, but during the tough times you also need someone that can match your energy and accomplishments, otherwise you end up feeling let down by them.

I'm all for women widening their search, but most women want a partner, not a pet project they need to nurture and help grow and it's the equal partner men that are in short supply as the OP points out.

You're saying take a rough diamond and buff it up, which seems to have worked in your case, but not all rough diamonds do buff up, and not all women have the time or inclination to do the buffing, which is why they're looking for an equal to begin with.

Do you think men want equality from women, a man will happily date someone who earns less or doesn’t have a car or a license because he might actually like her ?

I’m not saying that women should take on projects, but some things, like a driving licence, can easily be fixed once the need to have one arises. And not earning equally or have the same qualifications doesn’t mean being incapable of supporting a family. If my health requires me to stay off longer after birth, we’d still be able to make it work. But I think this is derailing OPs thread, all I was trying to say is that if we focus too much on minor imperfections, particularity if these could easily be changed and/or don’t really matter in the great scheme of things, we might miss some good ones along the way.

No and I'm very happy this is not my worry anymore.
However, it's just my opinion and I can be a miserable b*h.
😁

@SE473
We live in a patriarchal society, of course men (en masse) don't want equality for women. If they did they'd be marching in the streets demanding that we are paid equally, that we have autonomy over our bodies.

It's men who have dictated that we earn less, are seen as less, our invisible labour around the home and caring for children/elders, is seen as valueless.

It's men who have dictated in some countries that women aren't allowed to drive.

But this isn't a thread about social equality, it's a thread about women wondering where the men are who can bring as much to the table as they do. We're not asking for more, we're asking for the same.

Sorry, my last post should have been directed to @Fs365

I met mine on a dating site when I was 33 and he was 38. He wasn’t previously married, but had one former long term relationship. We were both on that site for less than a month - we met, clicked instantly and deleted it. I think the good ones get snapped up quick.

He’s a kind, committed and caring soul, but a late bloomer - never considered marriage or kids with his ex, although they were together for 12 years and had a dog.

We are expecting our first in October. I think we both felt not ready for family life in our twenties, bumbled through bad relationship years in our thirties, and met at a good time.

I often think how lucky I am to have found him. But he is a diamond in the rough, and you have to know what’s important to you. I just wanted someone genuine and caring. He hasn’t got the big career, and was actually in a really transitional phase when we met rebuilding his life after an injury that left him jobless due to a long recovery. He is now back on his feet (literally). He’s an equal partner and a genuinely kind, caring man. I adore him. I can see that he wouldn’t be everyone’s cup of tea, but his wonderful soul just shines through all his slightly strange ways 😂 And he kindly puts up with all my strange ways too!

@S00tyandSweep - totally agree with everything you say.

Polishing a rough diamond - well I tried that and still had a rough diamond at the end, along with nothing but anger and resentment for someone who was less than useless. I'm still trying to extricate myself from the marriage too.

I do also agree with @Aquamarine1029 who also said it's the woman's fault for picking these useless men in the hope that they change. In my experience, they don't. I was naively blinded by love. I would be much more practical about a relationship now, if I could be bothered!

OP if theen you admire are ones with solid Christian values perhaps you should bite the bullet and go to church.

You are late 30s, 2 kids, so I am guessing reluctant to have anymore. What are you looking for? You say "good" men, but what does that look like to you?

I would advise to just get out in the real world because there are men out there, not on the apps, who you might connect with. Some you wouldn't dream of swiping on I would guess.

For every divorcee woman there is a divorcee man and it isn't always because he was thrown back it can be that the particular pairing didn't work for either party but they found out after marriage and kids. Paired with someone else he would be fine.

So go out and take a chance.

Maybe we should stop blaming and judging women for their poor choices in men.
No woman chose a walking red flag of a man because she enjoys pain and suffering. Usually, there is a lack of loving and supportive background or some other issue in her upbringing.
I honestly think that this needs to be thought at schools. If we manage to teach "relationships" to kids then they will pass it on to their kids and so on.
Unfortunately children experience a lot of trauma which moulds them into what they become - abusers, victims, etc.

I met my (3rd husband) when I was 39 and he is the same age as me. We have been married now for more than 30 years. Is he perfect? No. Am I perfect? No!

But we complement each other very well. In some ways we are opposites, but those opposites actually are good for us. Our similarities, in the things we like to do and how we think are also the good things needed by us in a relationship.

He had never been married (so would perhaps be a reject by MN as to why he was still on his own at age 39). I already had 2 kids who were 15 and 19 when we met, and the whole issue of 'will he be a good Dad' never really has had an impact on our relationship as a result. He and my (now very adult) children get on very well and that's fine

My last (ex) and I were not very compatible as it turned out, but in many ways he was a 'good' man too - and he remarried someone else, who he also was married to for about 30 years before she died. So he was marriage compatible, just not with me!!

I guess what I am trying to say is that if you are looking for the 'perfect' partner, you are probably doomed to disappointment. We all have faults. If you write someone off on 'paper' because of their background, you might miss the right person. There are, of course, certain red flags which anyone should avoid, but just because a man is divorced, or still single, does not necessarily mean that he isn't a 'good' man

Surely if they were a good family man, their wives would have kept them in the first place?!

Not necessarily. My ExH is a great family man who is a brilliant dad to our (young adult) son and we’re still very amicable. We just drifted in different directions and our relationship no longer worked.

He would be a great partner for the right woman - though he’s not actually that fussed about meeting anyone now.

Not all marriages end because one or other party is an arsehole - sometimes good people just grow apart.

I’m going to sort of disagree with you

in the last 40 years girls and women have outperformed boys and men in education in the west, girls do better at all levels and getting better jobs and higher incomes and better future, men are doing worse than ever in the UK and the entire western world

A good analogy is that women are getting taller and taller each year and they still want taller men, so when you say you want a man who can bring as much to the table - that group of men is now smaller than the group of women and that trend will continue ( in the west), unless society deals with the issue of boys being left behind in education

we will have a large cohort of educated young women and small cohort of educated young men, in 20 years time you will see gender equality in reverse to what we see now

to back to the question of “why are no good men”, because we ( society) are failing our young boys and men , especially young men from underprivileged areas.

I personally think that most people are purely still working out what a healthy relationship even looks like in the their twenties.

Absolutely- 100%
Relationships should be taught in schools. It could improve the divorce rates and impact on children/society massively. I didn't have a clue what a healthy relationship looked like in my 20s.