January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

@TremendousTurnip - Trying to work out the “why” is a waste of time. It’s like that story about the scorpion and the frog crossing the river. Look it up. And keep talking here. You are in good company.

@FreeRider - I expect FIL’s house is rapidy becoming a tip and he’s wondering how come the house doesn’t clean itself. Then thinking, oh right, it needs a female domestic appliance thing, and of course, you’re female so…..

@binkie163 - Our stories are so similar. I relate to every word you say.

@MonkeyfromManchester - sending all the wine and gin and hang on in there.

Hag update

She is now refusing food (they can’t feed her by drip because of the pneumonia and risk to her lungs), and her meds and painkillers by mouth. She has to get stronger to have the operation…

Ah Monkey, my father-in-law did that too at the end. He'd had enough and just stopped eating and drinking. Given the Hag history I'm not sure if she's the same and ready to go, or attention seeking! Whichever it is, I hope this doesn't go on for too long, for all your sakes.

@MonkeyfromManchester at least she is only hurting herself now....as mm says 'its her choice' it's such self defeating behavior but she is desperate to ramp it up, she believes you will all cave eventually.
My mum always did the refusing food theatrics expecting someone to coo over her, coaxing and spoon feed her....no one ever did so she soon stopped. The hospital just let her get on with it.

Attention seeking/ill. @Parentalalienation

it’s just so Fucking BORING now.

She knows exactly what she’s doing. Soaking up the attention. She’s deranged, but there’s a still that streak of real poisonous nastiness there. Little sneaky eyes. She is a Fucking cunt both in her scabby little armchair in her disgusting flat and equally vile in her hospital bed. Always best to make life shit for others.

This evening, Mr Monkey said he can’t sit by her bed every day, day in, day out. NO, YOU CANNOT. You need to step back from this BS. I’ve told him.

If Slave Son wants to go everyday to sit and soak up her heartwarming bedside tableau, then go for it, mate.

SIL and nephew are with her.

But, of course, once he left to come home, the Hag demanded that SIL phone MM and pass the phone to her.

”where are you?”

A mere two calls. I thought they were going to go on all night. Give her time. 😂

when will this utter bullshit end.

I note that none of the wider family - nephews/nieces etc have been to see her. I don’t blame them. I imagine there are MANY stories unknownst to MM of her hideous behaviour when they were all growing up.

Off to google when they withdraw care…

@binkie163 exactly! Not caving to the theatrics. The more they gather round the sick bed the more this shit will happen.

What’s unforgivable is my nephew is 22 with a learning difficulty and, of course he has agency and wanted to see her, but she’s now turning nasty with him.

Because my SIL is very emotionally literate (unlike the twat of an ex-husband golden boy), nephew is able to articulate “that’s not my granny, but I’m glad we’re going back to Scotland tomorrow.” I predict major drama tomorrow as the farewells take place.

I never thought I’d be glad of the flu, but this prevents me going and TBH I’m keeping out of it with no hospital visits going forward.

I don’t need the toxic bitch in my life.

I will support MM and guide him to self-preservation - which he’s doing himself - but not taking part in WW3 at her bedside.

Bitch in life, bitch at end of life.

this has dominated my life for THREE Fucking years. NO MORE.

And THANK YOU for all the support. I’ll jump back tomorrow to catch up with everyone. With lots of love and solidarity xxx

Have a restful night @mm xx

Sorry to hear that, poor nice aunt. Is there anyway a care home could still be an option especially if it’s what she would prefer? It’s not something I know anything about though.

@MonkeyfromManchester thank you. I’ve explained to my mum for four years now my siblings do not speak to me they don’t want me in their lives. She tells me I’m wrong etc etc etc, I have evidence well lack of it like date of last texts etc etc etc. but she will not stop telling me about them. My son (adult) had a chat with her and explained how it makes him feel last year too and that he doesn’t want anything to do with them because of how they have treated me, and yes then for a few weeks she left it alone as she listened to her grandson. The only way to not know is to not speak to her, so I am sticking to LC as much as I can.

But I’ve had a TERRIBLE day today. None of which is actually linked but all happened in one day. Firstly I heard the news of a death of a close friends beloved parent. Then my ‘best friend’ who doesn’t really speak to me let me know no she won’t be free to see me at any point this year, it’s my ‘big’ birthday this year so I was hoping to make some plans.

Then had another dreadful call with my mother (she had a funeral to attend this week so I wanted to check she was alright as these things can be hard) and we got on to the topic of my siblings not speaking to me and my ‘big’ birthday instead. Mum and dad are divorced and have no contact whatsoever and she decided to voice her opinion on my dads treatment of me recently (which yes hadn’t been the best but I’m worried sick about him). This is not a subject matter she should bring up with me as both of my parents are completely useless and should not be comparing themselves as neither of them were fit parents to me.

So anyway the subject of my birthday has been broached she made it clear her ‘suggestion’ to me to celebrate my birthday is to just do something with my DP. I did point out we live and work together 247 and I was hoping to be able to plan something with other humans too. And then to cut a long story short she made it quite clear in no uncertain terms she doesn’t want to see me, that none of my siblings will want to see me as no one wants to know me and it’s not an important day to any of them and then made nasty comments about my father. Then the phone call ended with her thinking we’ve had a really nice chat and me utterly devastated. I’ve been worrying about this birthday for months now as even standard birthdays are so hard when no one treats me well. I know you ladies will all understand how hard these special dates are. So now I know I mean nothing to anyone, well I knew that anyway deep down, but I just was hoping for a nice birthday this year. The only consolation is that I’ve got it out of the way early as my birthday is not until later in the year so at least I know now.

It’s even harder as mum knows last year I had told her of something I wanted to do in confidence as I thought I had come up with something really nice and I’d manage it with my MH symptoms, so I was being really positive and felt a bit excited. I was going to be a girls only sort of thing so I could invite my long distance aunts and female cousins too that I’ve not seen for years. And she vetoed it instantly and told me I could do no such thing and not invite my male relations (bearing in mind she won’t be in the room with my father). And then went around telling all of her friends all about my ridiculous plans and for weeks on end kept giving me feedback from all of them that they’ve never heard of such a thing and of course I can’t do that as I’d be causing problems in the family. So I gave up on that idea there and then so didn’t need to hear today that no one likes me or wants to know me 😰. Some days are just too much to bear tbh.

The end bit made me giggle 😂 what’s the story about you not being able to buy a plant! Sometimes the dark comedy bits in the middle of the crappy stuff make my day.

Last year, whilst we were on holiday at home and going to the shops with my mum to try to have a nice day, as expected I was not allowed to buy anything without toddler tantrums outside of the shops so I gave up. For example loudly telling me in a very quiet bookshop to put the book back on the shelf….books are my safe things. My partner still laughs that he was ‘allowed’ to buy a kitchen item (think can opener) 😂😂😂every time we use it he smiles as he was allowed to buy a ‘gift’ from our holiday and I wasn’t!

ps feel better soon

Hi everyone. Wording this carefully.

I've had to amend my identity from the Lugger of Bugs.

My previous marital partner has located a Fred I started about our shared child. It was shared by MN on the social media platform about a book and a face.

I'm okay. It wasn't a bad Fred but has put me on edge as he is employed as a person that catches bad people and is good at looking into things.

God that was hard to write! Hope it makes sense.

Anyway. The plant / can opener story made me chuckle. I have similar stories about my Mother absolutely going mental when I wanted to invite another family member to a meal for my birthday! Totally nuts but looking back now it wasn't the first tantrum.

Well, today will be deeply unpleasant, but that's nothing to do with mum.

I'm about to have a coffee and prepare for a day of stressful meetings.

I don't talk to mum about my voluntary work. I work with vulnerable young people. (Like I was once and no one helped me) She's just not interested. My golden balls brother otoh...he phones her every morning on his break to complain about his job and his wife 🤣

It's actually pretty sad. He'll never leave either job or wife as he has never really had to grow up. A very protracted adolescence. Its really stunted him. He's a 50 year old 17 year old iyswim?

Dead end job he hates, shrill harpy of a wife, drinks too much...

He took mum out on Sunday, so I magine cash had been given to him again 🙄

I hope @mm and MrM had a restful night

Dh making noises about fils bday in March. He wants to go out for a meal. Dh obviously expects me to go. I'm pretty pissed he expects me to go. It feels like he's just not listened at all. This is the Xmas day dinner "contact creep" I was concerned about. Sigh.

I think I'll just make an excuse. A training session or some such. Dh won't be pleased but...tough.

@Tbry24 how horrible! Birthdays have been times my siblings have been extra toxic so I hear you. I’ve been trying to switch the birthday trauma by planning something nice the past decade. Kind of messed up on my 40th a couple of years ago and learnt yet again to not involve family. Hope you make plan something lovely for yourself. 🤗

It's really wonderful that you are doing that vital work, @user8800. Thoughts with you for today.

It reminds me of the quote, "Be the person you needed when you were younger.” Ayesha Siddiqi

It has really stayed with me. I try to do it for my nephews, even that is really hard at times.

Think we’re in for a treat today as The Hag has just phoned me. Twice.

Laughed as she is in my contacts as The Mad One. She was blocked previously until I got some anonymous calls and I had to do some detective work to establish it was her. So, she’s stayed on my phone and I hadn’t reblocked her.

I won’t be mentioning this to Mr Monkey this morning as it will setoff yet more drama.

She’s now phoned me five times.

She must be LIVID that I’m not answering. This is pure spite as she rings and rings off and then rings again.

I can imagine her furious piggy little eyes in her hospital bed as she rings me.

Or she’s deluded thinking I’ll be drawn into the lunacy and ‘help’.

Spite, I think. She’s not phoned MM.

Thank you...
Another coffee I think whilst I go over key documents one more time...
I love that quote too. I try to live by it. I'm trying to be the mother I needed too. I'm sure I get it wrong sometimes but my kids know they are loved unconditionally
Which is all any kid needs,really
@mm omg...I'm feeling much more cheery now imagining the hag lying in her bed of impotent spite 🙌🤣
Love to all x

Monkey I have read and lurked over the years and been appalled and amused by your posts about the Hag. This is her extinction burst, you are so strong, Mr MM is very lucky to have you. Sending you all the best.

@Tbry24 ah I thought I was the only one who had birthdays etc ignored. I realised on my 40th that like everything else in my life, if I want something I'll have to sort it myself and that includes gifts etc

@user8800 I love your positive attitude towards your volunteer role and your children. I've tried to do exactly the opposite of everything my parents did and I know sometimes I haven't got it right but they know I love them and I have their back

@MonkeyfromManchester it sounds like the hag is determined to go out with a bang. Thinking of you and mr m at what must be a very difficult time

I made myself a resolution last week after discovering this thread and another dreadful Christmas with my mother. I'm going to have a me afternoon one day a week. Today is my first me afternoon so I'm currently trying to decide between a walk around the shops or a sit on a coffee shop with some cake and a book.

It might sound daft but this is a big step for me, I never go anywhere socially alone my confidence is so low thanks to my toxic upbringing. Wish me luck ! I'm going to do this and I'm NOT going to have a panic attack!

Mr Meerkat and I saw nice aunt yesterday at home. He spoke with Dumb as he was also there when we arrived (he did not mind us being there at all) then he thankfully left.

We saw one of the carers whilst there and we asked her some questions that she was happy to answer. She made it crystal clear to us that her remit was 15 minutes consisting of taking the user to the toilet, heating up microwawable food and making them a cup of tea. Nothing else. Aunt needed to use the toilet so the carer helped her with her personal care whilst we said we would make her team and dinner later on as nice aunt said she was not hungry at that time. We have forwarded all this info to dumb for he to deal with. There was some clothes in her washing machine which had been put in there by Dumber and not dealt with , I mean who in their right mind does that?. I took it out and brought it home.

Monkey

So sorry to read the Hags been calling you repeatedly.

I would turn the phone off and or bury it in a bucket of sand. I would also block her. She’s certainly doing this out of spite.

@AttilaTheMeerkat that’s awful. I’m so sorry to read your post. Your poor aunt. Some family members are just foul, aren’t they? It’s so brilliant that you are there helping her.

@Tbry24

I'm not surprised you feel hurt. Do you feel your mum either consciously or unconsciously through her parenting created this unhealthy dynamic with your siblings? I think even in sane families there are roles. Me? I'm the older sister with a will of her own. 🤣 AND THANK GOD I HAVE WILLPOWER. The roles are FAR worse in dysfunctional families and how those roles circulate round siblings because of triangulation is hard to keep up with, unsettling and highly damaging. Does your mum enjoy the drama? You, obviously, have a brilliant son (A CREDIT TO YOU) who is emotionally literate. I’m increasingly realising that some people can’t or won’t listen or do empathy. I think being LC is very wise.

I’m so sorry you had an awful day. Your mum behaved really badly. She can’t tell you how you choose to celebrate YOUR birthday or with whom. Or whether you have contact with your dad. Read up on yellow rock, it’s a way of seeming polite and engaged whilst protecting yourself emotionally. It’s really helped me with The Hag.

@Trappedwitheviledna I am imagining your house has a veritable jungle. PLANTS ARE A PROTEST. Love it. Seriously, where do these people get off? You can buy what you effing want!

@user8800 without having a ton of sympathy for the Golden Children - as very few have stepped into protect their abused siblings or call out foul family dynamics - some of them end up trapped into an utter web of batshittery like your brother. This is Slave Son’s life, apart from now he has no job and his last relationship was in the 1980s. Despite your mother being utter hell, you have crafted an independent and fulfilling life against all the odds. Be proud.

@PeoniesLilac

Love that quote.

@MintyChops thank you. It so is the throwing the nuclear warhead teddies out of the pram time.

I told MM when he was heading out the door that I had EIGHT missed calls, including THREE that went to my voicemail which were silent and then the phone was slammed down. WTAF. Who does that?!? I have fantasies of going into her hospital room with a sledgehammer and smashing the phone up in front of her. She is DERANGED. Her tremendous spite and fury keeping her alive. Imagine if she’d put that energy into positive things in her life and the lives of others?

@Davina69 thank you. The Me time is really, really empowering. Have a lovely, lovely time.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

I actually find it funny now. She is that mental. Once upon a time I would have picked up and got an earful. Now I might answer the call to listen to her furious breathing. 🤣 It’s also useful to have the evidence.

Me this AM:
“can you mention this to the doctor, please, Mr Monkey as this is really weird behaviour. On a personal level, it’s really upsetting*.”

I’m not entirely convinced that all the ‘delusions’ stack up and it will be hilarious if she gets sedated or put on anti-psychotics. The doctors are now considering this.

As SIL and nephew are leaving her bedside to drive the eight hour journey back to Scotland in…looks at watch…at 11.30am precisely, all HELL is going to break loose. Mr Monkey is leaving at the same time as them and not going to the heartwarming bedside again today or tomorrow. I'm going to keep him to that.

*I’m angered by her now, rather than being hurt or upset. If she hurts MM, then I’m furious.

@Tbry24 I wonder why you still bother with your mother when she brings you nothing but heartache and grief. I realise of course that these things are complicated, but at what point do you free yourself from her toxic influence? Why go back to the same well when you know it is dry?

I went NC with my entire Family Of Origin. It was the only way. Sadly it meant losing some dear nieces and nephews, but the NC decision was impossible without a degree of collateral damage. This was part of the price I paid to free myself. It was very hard, but was definitely the beginning of a long road towards healing. I don’t regret it for a moment.

@tonewbeginnings is right about toxic behaviour ramping up for birthdays and other special events. My Highly Toxic Sister would go to great lengths to ruin surprises and party gatherings. It took me a long time to see that there was a personality disorder at play and a willing enabler in her arsehole (definitely gay) husband.

@user8800 Your DH will just have to suck it up. He wants you to be there so that he doesn’t have to explain your absence and then listen to your FIL tell him what a disobedient wife he has.

@MonkeyfromManchester I would be so tempted to answer the phone and prop it up against the radio so she gets an earful of popmaster or whatever each time she calls.

@Davina69 Good luck and enjoy yourself!