January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

@IAAP ha! Not too dark at all!

I thought you'd appreciate the Halloween thing, Monkey.

@binkie163 Thank you! I am sorry you went through this too and I am glad you managed to break free after getting lured back in.

I don't miss them, but I miss having A family, not them. I miss having A mother who loves me or A family that is emotionally healthy. My life was really lacking not having that when I was younger and it did set me up horribly for life.

@junebugalice your post resonates with me so much. I know exactly what you describe. My therapist says some wounds will never heal, and I can accept that, but just a couple of weeks ago I was fine but I have had a new shock, as you describe it and it's like back to square one in terms of grief. It really does come in waves and feels like it's starting all over again.

I do think the neglect and abuse will always be part of someone's story. How could it not? I believe there could be vast improvements, as you have experienced, but I struggle to see how there could be a complete reset. I can parent myself now, but it will never fully undo the fact that a basic sense of trust could never be developed by the age of say 5. I too always carry this lack of trust in the world with me. The sense that something horrible is just around the corner and that I have no control over it. I know this can improve but I am not sure it will never not linger inside of me.

My friend and his sister having nothing to do with the people that abused them. Somehow they came out of it together. it's a horrible story and I do not want to carry what he experienced for a second. I am surprised he is alive and functioning ok, but this jealousy that his sister stayed on his side is so, so strong. My brother turned on me when very young. I know he had to in order to survive too. He had to be on my mother's side and also look at me as the family idiot in order to earn our mother's love, or whatever it was. But still. He's still not questioning it as an adult.

It's nice to communicate with you here and feel understood. I feel like you truly get it and people in my life just don't. So I don't share much with them. It's such a blessing that you have your husband and kids.

I know this can only get easier by the day and is a hundred times better than staying in old patterns and stay connected with the dysfunctional family, but yes it is very, very hard too. I'd say it is the second hardest thing I have done in my life with the hardest being my childhood.

@Twatalert I am 63 and that fear of losing everything I have worked for has always been with me, still is sometimes. Covid lockdowns I feared my business would fold, in fact I did my top 2 years business, it's the anxiety. I have had imposter syndrome since my 20's all of this comes from an unsafe childhood.
I can see exactly where my childhood has affected decisions and relationships Iv had, it's why I don't forgive my parents.
However I have done really well in life. My shitty childhood is the price I paid for my friends, husband, farm, dogs, career, travel and now my peace, my beautiful garden and good fortune. My husband loves me and understands my insecurities. Had my life started differently would I have everything I have now, would I have been as driven and successful? Is it the butterfly effect. It's part of my life but thankfully my family are not.

@binkie163 This fear is strong, isn't it? It comes from a very young place.

I have done well for myself in some areas of life, but I couldn't credit my abusive childhood with it. I am no believer in 'it made me stronger'. I only survived and went on to do what I did because of who I already was. I knew from a young age that I can be incredibly persistent and do not give up until I achieve what I want, but this didn't develop because of what happened to me. It was already there or I would be dead.

Looking at what I have achieved despite everything just makes me wonder what my life could have been without all the crap. I don't want things or money, I already have it, but I'd give all of it to not have struggled mentally through every single year. To have had happy childhood memories and to have felt safe. I only understand this now as I have moments during which I feel safe and secure and understand what I missed out on. I'm feeling things I have never felt before. Good things. And I'm grieving this so much. I also know realising this is setting me up for the bigger and better but right now I am going through this period of grief and it's fucking horrendous. Excuse my language please. I am glad this thread exists and people here get it.

I feel like taking bereavement leave from work as I just cannot concentrate. But nobody has died.

@binkie163 I'm another one who just can't forgive my parents. I honestly don't see why I should, as my mother has never shown the slightest remorse, or taken any personal responsibility for what happened...all she does is blame my father, when I know for a fact that she was as equally (if not moreso) to blame (I've read her diaries from the time).

I bloody hate the 'forgiveness is for yourself' saying. So fucking patronising. Even at the age of 55 I'm still dealing with the legacy of what my parents did, both physically and mentally. They neither know, or care about that...any time I've tried discussing it with my mother (too many times) she just starts off very defensive and ends up throwing around very nasty personal insults.

@Twatalert

I don't want things or money, I already have it, but I'd give all of it to not have struggled mentally through every single year. To have had happy childhood memories and to have felt safe.

Exactly how I feel. My older brother has told his wife he has no happy childhood memories. The grief that comes with that...I find that those who had 'normal' childhoods find that aspect of what we go through very very hard to understand. I've been having counselling for C-PTSD and grief for the last few years and I still sit there thinking the counsellor must be thinking 'how pathetic is she, still making a fuss about stuff that happened over 40 years ago'...even though I have been told numerous times that isn't the case. It's is like I feel like I have no 'right' to feel the way I do...which of course is another legacy of my childhood. My mother used to get very angry if myself or my two brothers ever dared show - especially to other people - that we were upset or angry, or any other 'negative' emotion, because of course that might mean she didn't look like the 'perfect Catholic mother'.

When I was 13 my cat was run over and I was the one who found him... it was a holy day of obligation and we attended Mass that same night...anyone who has been to a Catholic Mass will know how emotive they can be, even if you aren't a believer. I spent most of it trying not to cry. Afterwards we visited my grandmother, and she happened to comment that I looked upset. I burst into tears and she gave me a cuddle (something my parents never did). My mother was utterly FURIOUS with me and I got told off afterwards. 42 years later and I still cry when I think of that day...not only for the loss of my beloved pet but at how fucking horrible my narc mother was that day...

Would you be able to get signed off from work by your doctor and get a break that way?

@Twatalert I wonder what a good childhood looks like. Tbh if anyone asked me between the ages of 20-50 I wouldn't have admitted how shit my parents were, I suspect many like us don't outside the family due to the stigma but also we are indoctrinated not to, that keeps families close but in an unhealthy way.
I have a close friend my age who grew up Amish. Big family, strong family and community ties, wonderful barefoot, farming, happy, safe, secure and yet disastrous marriages, left the family behind and she wouldn't care for elderly parents.
I also made it clear to friends and boyfriends I had no interest in meeting their families, doing family get togethers etc. one long term boyfriend, his 2 siblings, their partners plus siblings all stuck together, socialising, holidays etc but they were highly dysfunctional and had alcohol issues. I'm not sure I know any 'normal' families. Obviously most would have been better than mine. Had my life been different I wouldn't have met my lovely husband. Grief is hard but what you are experiencing is right at your core, I think just saying it/writing it out loud takes the power out of it.

Sorry I can't highlight the relevant paragraph but Yes yes yes to the fear of having everything taken away and fear of daring to be happy. It has literally ruined my life. I just can't get past it !

@binkie163 I too questioned whether that many healthy families even exist. I think they do. I do think there are many emotionally healthy people out there. People who take accountability for their actions more often than not and who know they are responsible for their own feelings.

Apparently more than 50pc of the population has a secure attachment style. I often laugh at this and think I have yet to meet one. But I think they are there. I just haven't felt drawn to them. They also say parents need to get it right like 30pc of the time so the child has a secure attachment. Just shows how much mine fucked up.

To whoever said forgiveness is nonsense - I agree. It's a scam and is usually said by people who haven't experienced abuse or don't understand they have been abused. I won't forgive my parents. I'll forever shake my head thinking of this fuck up.

@FreeRider you parents were cruel with the cat incident and I'm sure on many other occasions.

My parents have form for moving on quickly and pretend nothing happened. I'd experience some major upset and my mother would behave like the most stable (composed or shall we say ignorant) person when I needed her to comfort me. They'd literally leave me to it. Apparently the only appropriate response to anything is to say 'stop crying'. Bitch.

A classic is example is that their relationship to their daughter, me, has completely broken down and my mother seems to be in a jolly mood. The kind of mood that says 'i havent done anything wrong and this isn't on me'. This has been like that all through my life. She would upset and betray me deeply and then turn into this psycho that exudes this weird confidence and self assurance, which I know is a mask.

@Twatalert its been so reassuring to talk to you here as I find there are so few people in my life who understand it on this level. Practically no one if I’m honest. I don’t even think my therapist really understood the depth of my feelings tbh or maybe she did but was aware you could only ever heal so much.

I agree with you that I don’t think it’s possible to escape the effects of childhood abuse and neglect, it’s a wound that incurable but can heal, I think. Even if it heals it’s still there. I have all the tools too, deep breathing, meditation, positive self talk etc and I’m surprised that I have to still rely on them at times. I think I need to accept that the scars of my past will always be with me and will always impact on me, but I find that acceptance hard and lonely.

Oh I hear you on the pain of your sibling relationship. You were the family idiot and I was the family drunken slag ( so not reality but that was my label). I behaved as a very typical teenager and what my parents did was shame me, when my sister behaved the same way (or worse) the behaviour was ignored. I can’t express the level of hurt and frustration I experienced growing up like that, as that was the way my life was. She was the perfect princess who could do no wrong and I was the horrible sister, in every way. So, in my case, I understand now why I have no relationship with my sister, it’s simply not possible. She has been programmed to hate me and she’s been told her life that she’s never wrong, never makes mistakes and that she is flawless. I’ve recently accepted that she too is highly damaged by our childhood but is unwilling or unable to really look at our childhood in any way. She has read all the books and knows all the lingo but, literally, cannot see the dysfunction. I also understand that no two kids experience the same childhood but her lack of empathy disgusts me. My sister is a narcissist, I believe, so that’s our relationship fucked.

I agree with you on this being the hardest thing I’ve ever done. For me acknowledging the truth and then the recovery has been excruciating at times. If there’s one thing I wish for, for my kids, is that they don’t have to recover from their childhood.

@flapjackfairy its horrible isn’t it? At times I have it under control but right now all I can focus on is that something bad will happen to take away my family and I’ll be alone (aka abandoned) again. Luckily, I know what has triggered this, an awful interaction with my mother and finally accepting that she truly doesn’t give a shit about me. It brought back all those feelings betrayal, pain, fear and abandonment. Anyway, it’s time for me to put my mental and physical health first as being around these nut jobs is soul destroying. Look after yourself.

@junebugalice it's totally conceivable that your parents may have created a narcissist in your sister by raising her the way you described. I agree golden children are also severely damaged. I'm sorry you have lost her too.

You said this beautifully that you hope your children won't have to recover from their childhood. I know how hard this recovery is and what some parents went through the way they became but I often think all children need the most is to feel accepted and be emotionally safe. To feel and be told they are good as they are and their feelings and needs are valid. It's so so simple and yet so difficult to do for many people. I'm often bewildered at the fact that my parents could never see that.

I often wonder why I'm the only one in my family to have struggled with severe depression, anxiety, insomnia and an eating disorder. Maybe if things hadn't been so bad that I had to decide whether to off myself or get better I would never have woken up either.

@Twatalert its like you’re reading my mind! What you’re saying about kids deserving to be validated and told they’re safe and “good” is so true. My job involves working with teenagers and I have found it so healing to see the child in front of me and not just the “problems”, it’s cathartic to validate another person and, in my case, that age group because my teenage years were fairly shit so getting to be “that adult”, the one tries to understand them is so healing.

Oh I hear you on the illnesses too! I’m the only one who has experienced depression, anxiety and has been diagnosed with an autoimmune disease. Funnily enough my quite severe autoimmune disease resolved itself by about 90% when I started therapy and I let out all that hurt and pain. I was actually listening to a podcast earlier where Gabor Mate (I sound obsessed with him, I’m not 🙈) was saying that often developing an illness (physical or mental) can be lifesaving if you are able to acknowledge that it can be linked to childhood trauma and then do the necessary healing. In my own experience I find this to be so true.

@junebugalice
Thankyou. it really helps to have other people putting into words the nebulous feelings I struggle with so much. I am tired of working so hard to keep my head above water with it all. It really helps not to feel so alone though I am sorry for everyone else's pain . x

@Twatalert its so validating to have a place to come to where people get it. Unfortunately, you’re definitely not alone in feeling the way you do. But one day at a time (that’s what I tell myself). X

Recent posts resonate so much with me.

Grieving the family you wish you had is an ongoing process. I’m similar, in my 40s, have had a few years of therapy and am still working through it!

“Now, I look back at my younger self and realise how strong I was to have survived the environment I did. And you survived too, you’re amazing for doing that.” - this thought helps me too.

🤗

💐to all.

I have now started up a March 2024 thread as this thread is nearly at the 1000 mark so please use that now.

New thread:

March 2024 - But we took you to stately homes www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/5032064-march-2024-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes

settles down for a good catch up

OK WHY does MN always put you in the middle of a random page from a month ago or something. V aggravating.

My Mil is the devil incarnate and textbook definition of a narcissist. She physically and mentally abused my husband when he was a child and if that’s not bad enough she never went to his school to report him being bullied and instead started to call him the names that the bullies called him at school 🥲 he left at 17 and joined military as if he didn’t he would’ve gone down a very wrong path. He has done so well for himself after leaving school with nothing, not once has she congratulated him. Even now she refuses to admit any wrongdoing and says he is over-reacting and needs to get over it! This has massively affected his entire life and for that I totally despise her. He has delayed PTSD which started 5 years ago once she came back to the uk from Spain and she deliberately goads him and just talks about herself constantly. She love bombs him and her grandsons only if we invite her to ours as she never makes any effort or goes out her way to do anything for us. If we didn’t invite her every weekend she would get the hunp and say he was abandoning her and she can’t do anything herself apparently!

She’s 73 and apparently a guy in his thirties is after her totally deluded to fuck. She has never bought a house in uk when she came back from Spain as she’s holding out for a lottery win to get the house she feels she deserves She claims to us she counts all her pennies but looks down her nose at absolutely everyone with her misplaced snobbery and I can’t stand people that think they are better than others.
She is very jealous of what we have but we’ve worked bloody hard for it. She hates me and constantly brings up stories about my husbands first wife even though apparently she never liked her,
She constantly nit picks at my husband and I for words we may not use correctly and apparently because I’m from Scotland I don’t use correct terms in some sentences FML!!! Anyway husband has now seen the damage she caused him clearly and has stopped speaking to her after their last argument when she stormed out our house.

Wow @Hereforthechat79 she sounds self absorbed with no ability to self reflect.

May I recommend this book I read at the weekend (I'm not endorsing Amazon or related to the publisher).Your husband might find it particular useful as her son. I 've been more susceptible to PTSD my adult life and now have CPTSD that I'm working to heal. The book should dot all the i's and cross all the t's for him.

You will probably find it really enlightening as well and help you manage the relationship with his mother and heal from her!

I forgot the link 🙄

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Youre-Not-Problem-Narcissism-Emotional/dp/1399719238