January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

@AttilaTheMeerkat how awful. Sounds like they want her to stay in her home (care homes cost £££ off the estate) but make it really hard for her. BASTARDS. Sending you all good wishes.

@MonkeyfromManchester no deff not mental illness she was just a cunt! It was always just to get a response. She used to trash the house as well. I remember being really upset as a teenager when I came home, house looked wrecked, my sewing machine on the floor, I turned on my dad and said you can fucking replace that. Mum puffed up her chest and said fooled you, she had gently placed it on floor to upset me to pretend she had broken it. I saved a year to buy that machine. Just an awful awful cunt, she was always a cunt and died a cunt.
God save us from the eternal fuel of narc supply.

@TremendousTurnip I don't think it helps to put a name to it, you understand it as not right. We can't change what has happened, we can change how we respond to it moving forward. I spent my life rising above my shit alcoholic parents/childhood but in hindsight can see how it affected decisions in my life.
I remember being told that neglected/abused kids do not form many cohesive memories, have few memories of school, birthdays, holidays etc I thought that's not true, I hardly remember anything about my pre 17 year old life ...... And so it began. I am a big believer in avoidance and not dealing with stuff. I used reading as another way of avoiding sitting with the memories and feelings because they hurt. My mum was a straight up narcissist and made mine and my family's life miserable, she messed up all our lives.
The one thing I learnt was to protect myself. Not sure I will ever be at peace with it but have accepted it is what it is and grateful for the life I have now.

My partner has definitely inherited a couple of the shittier aspects of both his parents - his mother was a hypochondriac and partner is too... he also has a weird/poor attitude to money, his parents never shared their respective incomes and as an American would say, he's got a tendency to 'nickle and dime' you to death.

I'm already seeing signs that he thinks that his mother's death has somehow changed the way I should interact with his father - I've been no contact with both his parents for nearly a decade after years of shit from both of them....his father thought he could control me (a woman then in her 40s) like he does/tries to with everyone else in his family, and didn't take it well when I basically ignored him. His parents live 200 miles away, we don't have children and as I've always said, I see a good relationship with 'in laws' as a bonus, not mandatory. As I also told partner, I didn't put up with that shit from my own father, what made him think I would take it from his?

Partner has already dropped hints about me going down to visit his father...yeah not happening mate, it's your mother who has died, not mine, nothing has changed for me and her death might have wiped your memory, but mine's perfectly intact.

Ugh. Families.

@AttilaTheMeerkat that does sound deliberate - messing things up for her in her own home. What a nasty thing to do. Trying to protect a vulnerable elder from a two-faced shitbag son is nigh-on impossible because they hold all the cards. I spent 3 years banging my head against a brick wall in a similar situation, so I feel for you.

@MonkeyfromManchester - deep breath, hold your course. MM will be experiencing some inner turmoil and probably not thinking straight. Best to give everyone a wide berth for a while perhaps. Stay in your room with hot toddies and munchy snacks.

@MonkeyfromManchester If the pneumonia doesn't kill her - and it's more likely to be it - then the operation probably certainly will. My partner's late mother was more than a decade younger than the Hag and she basically didn't wake up from an op. Turned out she had a massive tumour on her ovary that ruptured her bowel. If partner's father hadn't been such a control freak and had stormed in telling hospital staff 6 months earlier - when she went to A&E with severe stomach pains - that they weren't to discuss her health without him being present (?) it would have been caught earlier and she'd still be alive. Hence the performance grieving, he's feeling guilty as shit about that - and also the way he treated the poor cow when she was alive.

You’re right about the memories @binkie163 - I do not have a single good memory from my childhood. The only vivid memories I have are of some of the beatings and having to stand there and take it. Watching her coming at me in a rage with a stick. Remembering the flannel going red with the blood. Having absolutely NO IDEA what I’d done wrong. The beatings stopped at 14 when I hit her back one day.

My good memories start when I was 17 and left home with the paltry savings I’d scraped together by working in some shitty job for a year. I only wish I had found the strength to go NC right there and then and never look back, but of course I was already totally entrenched by then and immersed in the FOG.

I had some very conflicting emotions to work through when she died 18 months ago but I was over it pretty quickly and left with the realisation that I never liked her (not surprising) and was glad she was dead. All those years I'd spent trying to make her life better were a complete waste of my time and resources.

I am totally at peace now.

@FreeRider - I'm totally with you on the FIL stance. I set out my stall early doors with DH that his parents were his department, not mine. That generation is marinated in misogyny and my in-laws were unable to compute that I wasn't a highly-obedient domestic appliance.

@binkie163 Thanks for the reply. I am quite interested in the psychology of people, the 'why' behind behaviour. There were some awful things from my childhood, but also some really good things, which is why I am struggling to really make sense of my feelings towards my parents, how I should feel now (we do have a relationship which is on the surface is okay but quite superficial), how to balance the crap stuff against the good. I guess that's why I was thinking about 'scale' of 'badness' and whether there are categories and which one my parents would fit into.

But maybe I need to stop thinking like that and just acknowledge that things were done and said by my parents were due to toxic traits and they don't have to fit in a box for me to be able to process/deal with them.

I would say that the job I have had since being a young adult has helped with my emotional resilience massively. Having read the likely emotional out-comes for children of toxic parents as described by Susan Forward, I don't recognise many of those in myself, which is a good thing. We just had another episode of poor behaviour over Christmas which has triggered some of my anger over past events and made me stew for the past couple of weeks.

Not really sure what I'm after, posting on here, maybe just an opportunity to talk through some of the stuff that happened when I was younger and see if from other people's perspective? Sometimes you do doubt yourself and your reaction to things that have happened (gaslighting yourself almost!)

@Sicario Pretty much how 'FIL' saw late 'MIL' - as a highly-obedient domestic appliance. Very very misogynistic...I've been amusing myself thinking about the possible state of their house now because late MIL did everything - all the cleaning, cooking, etc. I know from partner that his father has been going out to eat just about every day since she died. I'm sorry for my partner that his mother has died (even though I didn't like her) but zero for FIL.

@TremendousTurnip
I am quite interested in the psychology of people, the 'why' behind behaviour.

😂😂There is enough on this thread to keep you going a lifetime. I found 'The Why' utterly pointless, who knows why they are crap & toxic, they just are, there is no excuse for them. I made excuses for my mum for years, its part of the family toxic dialogue. I think if you are triggered there is more to it than surface stuff, to be triggered still many years later is deep stuff. We all doubt ourselves, it was the norm for us, we have been gaslit for years by family and by ourselves.
@AttilaTheMeerkat says at the beginning, it isnt 'how bad' it was, it is how it made you feel and still makes you feel that is the problem. I never thought my shit was that bad compared too many but then tbh I had never been really honest with myself. I have done very well for myself and preferred not to dwell on it, pity parties are not my thing, if I started wailing 'its so unfair' I doubt I would stop! I went no contact with my family and all the unpleasantness hit me like a tsunami, it was unbearable, rage, anger, hot tears, snot, constant headache, no sleep, why? why? why me?...........then it just dissipated to indifference.
I no longer give a shit about my family, they have never been a source of comfort or support, just a huge drain on my energy which I need for more fun things. You will find you will work out what you need from it, bit like stages of grief, denial, anger, negotiation etc leading to acceptance. xx

Oh @mm I'm so sorry
The hospital staff know the score, as does your sil
Just concentrate on getting better x

Didn't see mum for long today. Took her some groceries.

I've got an afternoon of admin ahead of me for meetings tomorrow and then I'm out tonight helping at my dc hobby

I would very much like to hibernate atm 🥶

@binkie163 wtaf. HOW HORRIBLE. Hag did similar giving away MM’s toys and bike. He lost his cuddly panda (huge comfort as a neglected, scared child), I'm not sure it was ‘lost’. The abusers know how to hurt and torment, even through objects. Vile.

@freerider that's your DP’s trauma bond coming to call, isn't it? It will fade. Good on you for refusing to visit. Your DP’s dad will need someone to torment. Not going to be you. I guess he needs a replacement woman to torment after his wife died.

Lovely Dr friend keeps messaging me regard to ‘Outcomes’. If Hag has Op and survives, or survives pneumonia, she's facing a 3 - 4 week hospital / respite spell. Apparently, hip ops have an even poorer outcome when people are moved to care homes. Going to do EVERYTHING possibke for her to head off there.

@Sicario yep, hiding in my room. Reading, snoozing. I love SIL, but, although she knows Hag is abusive, her culture means family is everything. I can't deal with the love fest.

Jesus H Christ Re the beatings. Awful.

@TremendousTurnip gaslighting is a huge factor. Xmas is hell for so many of us. This thread filled up remarkably, but unsurprisingly, quicky between Dec and Jan. People were dreading it, experiencing hell during the festive period, guilt, and were shocked to the core by it. Often all four.

Sorry, ladies, but Mother’s Day countdown begins soon. We’ll need all our strength and self-compassion and BOUNDARIES.

One year when I was not talking to my wagon of a mother I still felt I needed to buy her something so I got her a deep fat fryer. She loved it and I loved the picture in my mind of dunking her head into it.

For moters day I mean.

@MonkeyfromManchester Yes I did see more posts on here over December! Luckily I already have strong boundaries in place for Mother's Day- I haven't had a Mother's Day with my own mother since my DC was born 4 years ago. I will see her before and do something, but not on the actual day. I am too scarred by a lifetime of Mother's Days being ruined (mostly by my mother, but sometimes by my father- presumably because the attention was not on him for a day).

Various past incidents include constantly complaining about the standard of the food no matter where we had picked (even high end places), getting shit faced drunk, crying, presents being of an unacceptable monetary value. The best one was my mum saying she did not want any presents etc however my sibling and I saved up to get her a framed print as surprise (I was newly working and my sibling was just at uni so we made an effort to save), which we were going to present to her at the restaurant. In the morning we gave her flowers, made breakfast etc but by mid morning she was shouting and crying that we'd not got her a present, telling us she didn't mean when she said not to get her anything. Eventually had to tell her it was waiting for her at the restaurant just to shut her up, and then we had to trot off and pretend to enjoy ourselves having just been shouted at.

I am not having a day for me and my DC ruined by any of their hysterics.

Hope others can find strength for boundaries on Mother's Day this year and not have it ruined by toxic family

Hope everyone is ok. @MonkeyfromManchester crikey, the hag makes my mum seem wonderful!

I’ve felt a bit like I’ve been exaggerating because Evil Edna hasn’t been too bad. I’ve made the ghastly mistake of being ill for a few day though. I’m autistic and have to conserve my energy so have to try to avoid my mum even more when I’m ill. Every interaction with her uses at least one spoon and when she draws me into arguments it uses many many spoons.

I was going to type the whole conversation but don’t have the energy. She had a tantrum because I’m ill and it’s making her ill apparently🙄🙄🙄. She’s tried really hard making me cups of tea but it hasn’t made any difference…I’m still ill!! She’ll have to go out on her own and she might not come back!

I’ve sent her a message saying that I wasn’t impressed with her behaviour and even when I’m well, I have the right to go out by myself without her having a tantrum. Last time I sent a similar message she said “Oh I didn’t read that rubbish - I deleted it”! And (for anyone who remembers her storming out of Lidl because I wanted to buy a plant) I’ve bought a yukka plant and some hyacinths🤣

I'd like to just vent, briefly.

A life time of this shit has come to a head, finally. I've ended up as the seriously bad person, my sister is literally "an angel" (having done a few weeks of care for family; I've done years of it, left to sink or swim by my sister) and my mum is both very old and vulnerable, but also the cat that got the cream.

I'm alone now, completely.

Oh, I forgot, the worst thing about all this is that I am now witnessing the dynamic being passed down to the next generation, my sister's kids. The chosen one and the rejected, othered one. It is so painful to watch. I am doing what I can but JFC it's evil. No child deserves this.

Hi all - first time posting here but have posted about my toxic father elsewhere on MN.
I have since gone very LC with him - first Christmas in the new situation, which passed off ok. (He isn't bothered about seeing me anyway unless it's for some sort of supply or boasting fodder if me or my kids have achieved something that he deems valuable).
My mother is in a co-dependant marriage with him and won't budge, despite several offers from me over the years to move in.
I have to let her make her own decisions.
She and I have an ok relationship as she accepts the shit stuff they both did and tries to make up for it in her own (sometimes clumsy) way. My father accepts nothing and is a gold-plated arse who makes any conversations about my childhood painful and retraumatising.
So, has anyone managed to maintain a relationship with one parent while being LC/NC with the other?
(Love the title of this thread btw! In my case it would be museums or nature reserves... 🙄)

@PeoniesLilac yes my brother has no problem passing any of his parental responsibility onto his 2 daughters. Both have ft jobs and young families. He is every bit as selfish/misogynistic as my parents. I keep telling them do boundaries now so he doesn't expect to be looked after the rest of his life.

Hi ladies I'm just catching up with the new thread.

Reading your posts makes me realise that I'm not alone and I can identify with so many fellow posters

Beatings were not a regular occurrence but the threat was always there from my mother. A functioning alcoholic she could and still can present herself as a god fearing upstanding and caring parent when needed but behind closed doors I was so frightened of her it was ridiculous. I'm in my 50s and I still feel sick if I need to tell her something I know she won't like.

Constant appointments, bullshit shopping trips are done on demand because I'd rather put up with her than cope with the stress induced illness I suffer from due to the stress of confronting her. I know I'm pathetic but I have had issues in the past where I take my anger and frustration out on my little family which isn't fair on them.

I've never been good enough. On the surface I'm a successful business owner, confident and articulate but the years of constant criticism have left me with crippling anxiety .

As an only child it's taken my husband to make me realise that her demands and incessant criticism of me and everything is not my problem, it's hers. One day I'll say no but for now my biggest rebellion is wearing the iPods under my hat so I don't have to listen to the verbal diarrhoea she constantly spouts

It's not that dynamic, but simply the golden child and the unchosen one.

I'm so sorry, @Davina69. I hope you can cut ties with this women very soon.

Anyone else notice that the narrative changes to suit.

Things that happened many years ago are regurgitated and the story changes to they are the hero, the wonderful parent. Then I was completely wrong, the naughty little girl.