January 2024 - Well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' back in December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.
Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society

There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be given with warmth and support"

I've also now added the post written by Escapingafter50years as detailed below:

"I've copied these links I posted in the last thread and hope they are useful to people here. In addition to therapy and the Stately Homes, I've found them really useful in getting my head around the toxic mess I grew up in".

Podcasts
Helen Villiers & Katie McKenna – incredibly informative and validating, over 70 free weekly podcasts (these, combined with seeing a therapist, have been transformative for me)
https://uk-podcasts.co.uk/podcast/in-sight-2

Videos
Dr Ramani – has been highly recommended here regularly
https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani/videos

Instagram
Useful for bite-size snippets which are supportive and help you feel you’re not alone
https://www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/
https://www.instagram.com/patrickteahantherapy/
https://www.instagram.com/the.holistic.psychologist/
https://www.instagram.com/gottmaninstitute/
https://www.instagram.com/scapegoatchildrecovery/

Facebook
Peg Streep, has written a book called Daughter Detox
https://www.facebook.com/PegStreepauthor
Narcwise, like Instagram, this account has bite size snippets, often very insightful
https://www.facebook.com/narcwise

Twitter
Nate Postlethwait
https://twitter.com/nate_postlethwt
Ryan Daigler
https://twitter.com/Ryan_Daigler

Websites
Out of the Fog (lots of information & tools on this website)
https://outofthefog.website/
Mary Toolan Scapegoat Child Recovery (was recommended here, there’s a useful free e-book)
https://www.marytoolan.com/

Short-read Articles
Psychology Today “Narcissist”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissist&op=Search
Psychology Today “Narcissism”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/archive?search=narcissism&section=All

Books
I haven’t read all of these yet, but have read most and would recommend them
Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Toxic In-Laws by Susan Forward
Emotional Blackmail by Susan Forward
Mothers Who Can’t Love by Susan Forward
Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay C. Gibson (probably a good first book to read if you're not sure your parent/s is/are narcissistic)
Daughter Detox by Peg Streep
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk
Pulling Your Own Strings by Wayne Dyer (written a long time ago but has good strategies for dealing with people who don't treat you properly)
A couple of other books I have seen recommended by the wise AttilaTheMeerkat and are my to-read list:
Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Karyl McBride and
Codependent No More by Melody Beattie
Amazon.co.uk

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Legacy-Reclaiming/dp/0553814826?amp%3Bascsubtag=mnforum-

Yes mine keep sending money at Xmas and birthday even though they’ve not spoken to any of us in 2 years , I never get any money or presents though 🤣

Minnie Mountain

Your child has every right to not like his grandfather. your dad was no parent to you when you’re growing up and he has not fundamentally altered in all the years since.

I would stop facilitating the relationship between your son and your dad because he will go onto use your son somehow to get back at you. I would certainly not acknowledge anything he sends because that is a response and to disordered of thinking people like your father, that is the reward because he knows he has you then.

The truism again applies here that if a parent or relative is too toxic or difficult for YOU to deal with, it’s the SAME deal for your son too. If other grandparents are nice, and importantly emotionally healthy, then concentrate your efforts on them.

Shortbread49

i would urge you to not acknowledge such items when sent. Money and gifts are often used by toxic people to further control their chosen target. Again they are trying to use the kids here to get back at you. This is called “hoovering”: they want to suck you back into their dysfunctional world. Do not fall for such attempts.

Blimey @AttilaTheMeerkat I hadn’t thought of that. Dad actually asked for details of a bank account just in DH’s name to send money to (yes, he was that petty), but all our accounts are joint.

Atila I used to acknowledge but now I don’t she tends to send cash so I take them for breakfast but don’t let in where the money came from

@MonkeyfromManchester I am still NC with siblings but calling dad few times a month, we were once close.
He has said how he can now chat on phone without mother dearest snatching the phone and dominating conversation, he can watch the snooker in peace, sit and read without being expected to run around after mum, get up when he wants, see his friends, go shopping and without the arguments, he was at her beck and call. He is angry at how much of his pension was cashed in to cover her repeated debts. He acknowledges the shit she has caused. He talks fondly about his life and friends before my mum. So yes definitely vocalising it.

I hope slave son gets some peace. When your whole life revolves around a narc it takes a massive adjustment. There is a hole, we underestimate the sheer amount of time, energy and effort those fuckers take and the anxiety they cause.

@MonkeyfromManchester

I haven't been through what you have had to endure but I feel like my head is so fucked up right now.
I have had to go NC with my sister. The funeral was the final straw when she blanked me then got all her friends to call me as I didn't show up at the wake. That was twisted, she made ME look bad.
She has got worse with age. Took me a long time to admit it and finally realise that she isn't good for me.
I stupidly allowed her to move in last year to help care for DF. She lasted 6 weeks before I told her to get the fuck out. She then left me to care for DF on my own & didn't offer to help. Then had the audacity to say she is relieved she doesn't have to plan her days around dad anymore.....she saw him once a fortnight if that as 'it's all she could manage with him'.
Every time she said or did something that would make me question my version of events, I would go and write it down so I knew I wasn't going crazy. She's always urging me to get help for my depression, but it's almost forceful. She's extremely judgmental of me unless I am doing exactly what she thinks I should do. So many times I have blamed myself and allowed her to guilt trip me. She starts fires and plays the helpless victim. She did a lot of that when DF was alive, he couldn't see through her BS. She was so nasty to him, jumped on every word that came out his mouth. He couldn't see it.
I know deep down she genuinely believes she is a good person, & that I am the one with severe mental health issues & paranoia that makes me behave this way toward her.

I know deep down she genuinely believes she is a good person, & that I am the one with severe mental health issues & paranoia that makes me behave this way toward her

OMG that's exactly the same mind-set as my older sister.
Word for word.

She truly believes that I'm mentally ill. She has spread this belief amongst all our relations.

It's sickening.

Thanks to all those who posted back to me. Sorry that others are having troubles too…

I am going to follow my instincts and go nc with this ‘friend’ I do feel utterly betrayed and very sad as I thought this person was my friend, I even gave them a heavy discounted rate for what I do which has upset me even more, I can afford to lose them as a client thank goodness and have temporarily shut my business due to illness so just won’t tell them when I’ve started back up and I’ll deal with any fall outs later.

I’m now trying to focus on to looking forward to my mum actually not knowing anything about me going forward. I’ve also finally blocked my mums number so at least something good has come of it :-) . All the best to everyone.

@TheShellBeach Yes!
I had started to believe it myself, that I was unwell. Maybe it's their way of trying to weaken us so they feel more in control.
I remember the patronising voice she would use whenever I would call her upset, like I was a mental patient or something.
I would love to know what she tells her friends about me, I was approached with caution at the funeral....

Whenever we used to argue and then talk about it, she always found a way to make me feel sorry for her. She would cry & run to DF, who would believe her and didn't want to hear my side. Pure manipulation.

She is so quick to bite my head off, she loves embarrassing me in public & showing me up in front of people to belittle me. I'm the oldest but she treats me like her annoying little sister.

Hi everyone, lurker here in need of a handhold tonight as all RL friends have perfect mothers and just wouldn't understand.

Backstory- mother with trauma history and narcissistic traits. Grew up subjected to frequent angry outbursts, being told I was fat and ugly from a young age. Controlled in every aspect of my life. Told I was never good enough. No allies in flying monkey weak DF (just do what she says, don't upset her) and brother with ASD (still lives at home and every aspect of life controlled by DM). Managed to escape to University. Very low contact in 20s and 30s lots of therapy. NC for a few months after first child born due to her actions. Slightly more contact over past few years as she seemed to mellow and genuinely care about the children but ongoing upsetting comments towards me.

So..last week I found out she'd done something awful behind my back and confronted her. She rang me in a rage 2 days ago screaming that I'm no longer her daughter. Dad just called to say she had a stroke after this and is in hospital. I feel sick and numb. Instead of feeling sorry for her all I can think about is how her anger has hurt me over the years and how I will be blamed for this. Am I an awful person?

@Twobigbabies
No, you're not an awful person - not at all.

I'm sorry you're feeling so bad about the news of your mother's stroke but you didn't cause it and you shouldn't blame yourself.

I'm outraged on your behalf that your dad has made this accusation.

Thank you @TheShellBeach he didn't really accuse me he's not really like that more just giving me the information. He hadn't been sure if her symptoms were extreme anger related at first. She'll be the one blaming me later and rest of family. I don't really know if I'm even blaming myself more sadness. I feel like it happened because she just hates me so much.

I feel like it happened because she just hates me so much

She sounds awful.
And yes, if she survives, she might blame you. But strokes don't happen because of hatred, honestly.

@Twobigbabies - her stroke is nothing to do with you. You know that. We know that. We also know that angry toxic people will point fingers and allocate blame for every single thing that ever happens to them. Their flying monkeys do this too, because that is their role.

Regardless of how you feel about your mother, news of her stroke is bound to be upsetting to you. Don't confuse this upset with guilt. Stick to your guns and stay away from the chaos.

@Zebraslippers - well done. Good choice. You won't have to deal with any fall-outs later if you block all the contact methods (phone, email etc). The fall-outs will be nothing to do with you anyway. It will be them getting angry and frustrated because they are no longer able to access you to feed the narc supply

@JellyWellyBoots - NC was your only option to shut down the shit that kept coming your way. It's hard, but it is the only way forward. And you're absolutely right - they do get worse as they get older.

@Twobigbabies sorry but I am going to say it serves her right. That level of anger, screaming and nastiness produces a lot of cortisol, high blood pressure etc, its not healthy. We are not responsible for their behaviour. My mum would work herself up into a frenzy, I don't know where these old buggers get their energy from! The old 'your not my daughter' suited me just fine, NC was the best thing I ever did. Stick to your guns and if she wants to blame anyone leave her to it.

Hi everyone,

I wanted to ask what your grief feels like? What's it like for you to grief the parents you never had? The family you never had? The family connection you never felt? The sheer disbelief at what your parents left you to deal with growing up?

I have been grieving for a whole year. Sometimes I am almost ok, but then I remember a new detail or get reminded of the total loneliness I have felt all my life and it just floors me.

This weekend I went back to when I was about 14 and suicidal and my parents knew that. I kept a knife and razor blades in my room. I spent many nights contemplating to k**l myself. I wondered how long it would take or whether they'd find me before I could go. I worried about the consequences if it was not successful. I worried about what my parents would do to me if I survived.

This last part especially is killing me. Only now as a 40yo woman do I realise how messed up this is. I am so so sad for that 14yo girl that she thought she'd get in trouble for it. I am so sad that I told my joke of a mother how I felt and that they did nothing to help me.

I know now she's a narcissist but I was just a child and she treated me like she could not stand me. I know she could not.

I have no close family connection to anyone. I am totally on my own. It is so utterly, utterly painful I cannot describe it. I am bawling my eyes out over this time and again. Will this ever get less? When? I know this is grief.

I get so jealous at my friend who has a close relationship with his sister. They come from an abusive home but always have each other's back. I don't have this with my brother. My mother divided us early on and he's too far gone to ever wake up. I have no hope of ever having anything remotely normal with anyone in my family. It's so hard to move past.

Oh @Twatalert never have I related to a story as much as I do yours. I just want to say that I’m so sorry for what you have been through, and are still going through. It’s funny, I needed to see your message today as I too am struggling with the same things you are.

I had a visceral reaction when you mention the “sheer disbelief” of what your parents have put you through. I get it. The shock at discovering your parents could be so intentionally cruel and abusive is unbelievable. Have you tried therapy? For me it was a life saver. I remember when the therapist pointed out that I had been horribly abused and neglected that it, literally, took my breath away. I was shocked, and I still am tbh. Four years on I can’t believe it. I’ve come to terms with it but I’ll never be not shocked if that makes sense.

Im a similar age to you and the sorrow I feel for younger me is huge. However, I found therapy so good at processing this, I was allowed to feel anger at the injustice of my life. I was given permission to direct it at the appropriate people. Now, I look back at my younger self and realise how strong I was to have survived the environment I did. And you survived too, you’re amazing for doing that.

Im so sorry that you had suicidal thoughts and got no help, that’s horrific. The horror and reality of that needs to be processed by you. Your feelings about this are 100% valid. As a teenager I too went to my parents asking for help with crippling depression and anxiety and they turned their back on me. The effects of that will never leave me I don’t think. However, having this experience validated by a therapist was, again, life saving. It changed my perspective, which really needed to happen as anxiety was ruling my life as a result.

Finally, what you say about your friend and her sibling, l can relate totally. I too have a friend with whom I grew up with. We both knew our mothers were a bit mental but didn’t know it wasn’t the norm if you get me? She actually experienced worse abuse than me, as did one of her sisters and now they all act as if they’re the closest family. Compared to me, my sister is the same as my mother and we have no relationship. She’s the golden child and I’m the scapegoat so there is now no hope for a normal relationship there. Something happened over the last couple of weeks that has forced me to confront the reality of my situation and that is, like you, I have no extended family. I’ve tried all I can to make an impossible situation work and I now accept that I can’t. My family are too disturbed and I’m starting to accept this but Jesus Christ it’s hard. Check out In sight- Exposing Narcissism, this is invaluable (if you haven’t already)

Apologies for the essay but I want you to know that you are worth so much more than what your family made you feel, you never deserved any of this. Get the help you deserve so you can move on x

@Twatalert I didn't want to read and run. Someone more qualified will be along soon.
I left home at 17 I didn't have good parents or sibling relationships, can't miss what I didn't have.
I have been mostly LC all my adult life until last 10 years when I was hoovered back in because of my mum's 'poor health'. I did have a ridiculous idea that we may have all changed for the better!! No they were still rotten to the core.
I felt overwhelming grief and pain for first 2 months of NC but after that nothing, I don't miss any of them, they were nothing but trouble in my life. I was definitely deeply wounded and affected by my childhood but it's not something I dwell on. I was in denial most my life.
I couldn't rely on a single person in my family, not then and not now. I am quite hard hearted but not surprising given my childhood.
I wish I could make it easier for you ❤️

@junebugalice I'm so sorry you went through this too. Thank you for your reply. I had a good cry earlier and got it all out and feel better, but I was hoping it would start to hurt a bit less. Instead, the more I understand what healthy relationships look like and what a normal childhood looks like the more I need to grieve. The more I realise how far gone my parents and especially my brother are. I was still hoping to have some relationship with my brother but I need to accept it's not possible.

In their minds I will remain the crazy one and they'll still tell themselves they don't know where it comes from.

I went back to therapy last summer. It's helped quite a bit as I no longer dread being abandoned all the time so I am generally ok on my own. But the deep loneliness, that's nothing anyone can ever fill. I don't think. I have had it all my life. I still need to swallow so much pain when someone is going to see their family or similar or someone is asking whether I'll go and see my family for Easter or so. It takes so much to remain composed.

How long have you in therapy for if you don't mind me asking?

I hope that you are okay. It wasn't fair back then and it still isn't fair how they view us.

@Twatalert I was in therapy for three years with a 4 month break. I found the process so unbelievably painful but I had to do it. I always knew that I would “sort myself” out when I got out of my family home, it’s weird but I knew I needed help but would have to be away from them for that to happen. To be honest with you I still feel like some days I should go back to therapy as I’m not “over it”. Having said that I’m 90% better than before so maybe that’s how it will be? Again, when you say how “far gone” your parents and sibling are, I get that. I’m now accepting that I can’t help them in any way, you’re right, they’re just too far gone.

on the topic of grief, it comes in stages doesn’t it? I’m four years in and, as I said, vastly improved but I’m still prone to new hurts and shock. I think I’m in the acceptance phase now.

omg, I hear you on the abandonment thing! That’s always been my fear, I fear that all the good things in my life will be taken from me. This clearly comes from childhood when we were abandoned by our parents (I find this betrayal so difficult to overcome) and, for me, creates a fear of losing control. Things I can’t control scare me, I was never a risk taker, total people pleaser as result. Therapy and reading has helped with the people pleasing though, another horrible affect of my childhood.

I will say that the pain of people saying what they’re doing with family over holidays has definitely lessened. It’s clear that there are loads of people out there (our friends that were mentioned above) who don’t even realise what they have been through and will most likely repeat the cycle with their own kids. I no longer have that nice innocence that most people have happy families etc, some people do and I’m genuinely happy for them, but lots don’t so I focus on that. Also, I recognise how lucky I am to have my husband and kids.

I was listening to something Gabor Mate said last night and he said being lonely and alone are different things, I never felt so lonely in my childhood and I’m so grateful that I saw the light and escaped. Keep strong, it will get easier.

@binkie163
Wow! That’s a huge life change for your dad. I'm really glad for him. All those years, though….very sad. And the damage you've suffered too, of course.

@JellyWellyBoots
It sounds very much like your sister is rewriting history. She owned the funeral, she was taking on the dog (although it was you!) to position herself as the caring daughter. Your sister is adept at starting fires. Nightmare. Keep clear.

@Zebraslippers
Good decision.

@Twobigbabies
Hugs to you. She shouldn't have abused you or been screaming down the phone. Her stroke is NOT your fault.

@Twatalert
I'm really sorry you're feeling low. We're all here for you.

Better day today.

I felt crap with ROARING RAGE later on last night.

I may / may not have thrown a lot of toxic family photos in a plastic bag into some bushes near us late last night. I may / may not have had to walk into the bushes on retrieval duties on the way home from a meeting this afternoon as Mr Monkey rang and asked where I'd put them….

No you aren’t. This could be a stroke and could also be her being melodramatic (my mother has had a number of heart attacks but not phoned an ambulance but insists she has had them). I would suggest you send her your regards (if you feel like it via a trusted third party) and ‘respect her wishes’. Hand hold

@MonkeyfromManchester

You could always put the pictures of the hag onto like Christmas decorations only put them out for Halloween (sorry if that’s too much dark humour) I just had visions of you throwing photos randomly into a hedge and them having to retrieve them in the dark and someone asking you what you were doing and you saying I’m just finding pictures of hags….

I totally agree with this.

When we moved to be near them in December 2020 we lived with them whilst my house sold and it was hell on earth. My hair fell out.

But the money thing - bloody hell yes. We left in March 2020 and tried to leave on good terms but my parents wouldn’t have it that we had dared leave. We then had radio silence for a few months. In June one of the children had a birthday and she had a phone - they didn’t text. In July my father waited down an alley way and tried to give her rolls of £10 notes - she was crying and they plied her younger sibling with sweets telling them not to phone or tell mummy that grandpa was here. They also offered my daughter money to live with them etc looking back I can’t really believe it. She said no and I returned the money and sweets and asked them if they wanted to see the kids to arrange it through me. They haven’t bothered since but presents are total weird my parents used to send presents when they weren’t talking to me - now we have moved they can’t. They hate that they children won’t be brought and don’t want money. So ask your children if they want them ask them if they think this is healthy etc - of old enough. Personally if their don’t acknowledge their mother or speak to the family or are capable of respecting boundaries it is a no here. I encourage mine to talk about feelings and healthy relationships and boundaries etc