Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

ps. DH has never slapped her before - this is about the fifth time she has physically assaulted him leaving significant marks. I know this sounds a bit defensive of DH but I also know that it's very unusual and hard to imagine a scenario where a young girl is so aggressive and physical. I am not condoning or justifying the slaps. In 18 years neither of us have ever raised a hand to any DC - but i don't know how i feel about it. DD is absolutely beside herself that he slapped her. She keeps telling me she can't believe it.

Does your daughter believe that it's ok to kick your dh in the balls?

@Bogeyes No. But she says she has no control. I don't know if that's true or not.

I think that fair. I wouldn't be paying for her to go to Mexico. I would repurpose the money and pay for private counselling for her. Maybe come to an agreement whereby if she attends the counselling you with give what you can afford towards the flight? Obviously your DH needs to apologise to her. He was completely out of order hitting her. I would maybe call the boyfriends parents explain the situation and say that you understand if they need numbers for Easter now but unless and until she gets help it's a hard no from you both. I get she's 18 and an adult but she's behaving like a toddler.

When she says that she can't believe it, does she acknowledge that she was already physically attacking him including kicking him in the balls?

He reacted after severe and persistent provocation and in defence. Although not ideal and he realises he was wrong it is in some way understandable. I would support your DH is letting her know there are consequences to her actions.

Frankly the noise whilst he is wfh and preventing him making his call blocking his way would justify his refusal to fund her holiday. Interfering with his work could have financial implications.

Don't make excuses for her unacceptable behaviour.

She assaulted your husband and then you. His slap, imo, was justified to stop the violence.
I wouldn’t have her back in the house, one person cannot upset 4 other people to the extent of violence.
Just as a thought has she had blood tests for thyroid and all other hormone levels? How is she at Uni with friends and colleagues in the jobs she does?

You've enabled her behaviour by not nipping it in the bud the first time she attacked your dh. You should have called the police. Did she even get any consequences?. If you were talking about a man treating you the way yours is treating her dad then everyone here would tell you to kick them out, that they are abusive.

If this was my dd she would have been put out on her arse!. I certainly wouldn't be scrambling for an excuse to still give her the luxury of this holiday. You seem scared to upset her. She's obviously not scared of tipping her isn't family apart is she.

Time for some tough love op

She grew up with an angry father. She learned volatility from him. I can't help but feel very sorry for her and what she's lived with, and very sorry for you OP living with them both. I think his rages in her early years have had a deeply scarring effect on her and it will take years of untangling - there will be no quick fix. And now he's hit her, it's so much worse.

I wouldn't think she could ever possibly get over being left with nothing at Christmas after this has happened. If he insists on doing this, I can't see their relationship being retrievable. It might not be anyway.

So she manages to keep a lid on work and uni behaviour, but has had massive blow outs with friends and BF. If she feels close to someone and feels that she has been hurt or wronged by them - she will flip. It's always when she feels 'wronged' or rejected. She seems to feel things so hard and cannot control her response

Hitting her isn’t justifiable, but I can also understand the reaction in the moment to someone who’s intentionally caused the level of pain she will have caused him. He does however need to apologise for that.

The rest of it, he sounds like he’s handled as well as any human could and I think he’s right to remove the funding as a consequence. Even if there is ‘something’ else going on with her, she must understand that all actions have consequences.

I think your daughter needs to learn that if she kicks a man in the balls she might get a slap. Does she really think she can keep on physically assaulting people and nobody will ever retaliate.

As to the holiday, I don’t think your husband can say she is not going as she is an adult. But I think not paying for it is reasonable. You are far too tolerant of your daughters awful behaviour.

Also I do wonder if your reaction to this would be different if genders were reversed - if it was an older teenaged boy attacking his mother in this way, would you be similarly conflicted?

@ByTheTreeWithTheGoldenClock Yours is a loan voice, but the one that most resonates with how I feel. And this is the problem. Everyone else is saying what DH is saying "tough love" and this is why I am conflicted. I have always felt that her behaviour was her upbringing/DNA and possibly something else at play and this has tempered my response to it. I feel sad for her.

And this is why I posted. I don't know if that's right. It seems from this thread, that it isn't.

From the responses, OP, I don't think people have read the part about your DH's years of rage throughout her childhood and the lines you say he has crossed in the past, or joined the dots between that and her depression and self harm, and her violent behaviour.

Your posts suggest there are no issues apart from these 'rages' she goes into - but what has she said about the fact that she assaulted you and her father? You have only mentioned that she keeps talking about the fact that she was then slapped in response - to be going on only about that in the aftermath seems astonishingly lacking in self-awareness?

She has said she is sorry/ashamed she hurt me, but she doesn't seem as sorry about DH. She loves him a lot but there is definitely an element of carried over resentment from past years.

I wouldn't stop her paying for herself but I wouldn't be paying. Like a pp said, tell her the money will be spent on therapy, there definitely needs to be consequences to her behavior. She's an adult now. No your dh shouldn't have hit her but how many adults genuinely wouldn't react to that sort of goading and physical attack?

Cross-posted, OP. I'm sure - reading between the lines - that if you described his behaviour towards her growing up (and please don't feel you have to) that people would feel differently. She's 18 years old and has had an adult man, the father who should make her feel safe and loved, be terrifying and explosive for her entire childhood. That's tough enough. If you go for 'tough love' now I think you'll lose her forever.

I think your DD is totally in the wrong here and I feel for your husband being pushed to such a limit.
We are all human and while I don't condone his actions your DD instigated a series of events that were going to happen at some point.
Does she lash out this way with friends, her uni teachers, her work colleagues? If no, then that makes it more than clear she's aware of a line that shouldn't be crossed.

Neither you or your DH or her siblings should be a punch bag (literally and metaphorically) for her emotional outbursts.
And how hypocritical of her to be shocked and upset by her dad finally lashing out when she doesn't seem to think its equally as upsetting and shocking that she can physically abuse him and you.

I don't have the answer for your dilemma but why should she be rewarded when she is abusive and cruel and nasty when things are not going her way.

Underlying issues or not she is still physically assaulting those she is supposed to love when she is stressed, why is that even remotely acceptable. I wouldn't have her back in the house tbh.

There's no excuse for violence.

Why do you think you are the only person that saw that?

It does not make her behaviour now ok.

I do understand what you are saying about the impact of the past, but I would suggest there is something very wrong here if she physically attacks someone and doesn't even seem to really be remorseful. Surely at this point professional help must be a top priority (including redirecting funds from any and all other plans to get it if needs be)

Also OP, you stress that he's never hit her before, but emotional abuse is damaging as well as physical abuse. I really urge you not to take the consensus on this thread at face value but to think about what she's lived with - the things you aren't sharing here.

She goaded him into it - blocking his work call, jabbing him, physically assaulting him and then shocked he snapped back after all that? He wouldn't be paying anyway if he lost his job as a result of missing important work calls because of her bullshit. She is an adult and is responsible for her actions - she can't just shrug and say she has no control. She clearly does as she'd have been arrested for assault before now acting like that with those not family!

I agree with not paying, put that money towards therapy. I wouldn't stop her paying herself but she seems remarkably lacking in self reflection and remorse if all she's saying is how shocked she is that he finally retaliated when she was blocking his way and assaulting him and you.