Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

Nobody can stop her going, she’s an adult who lives independently. She can fund it herself like every other adult going on holiday.

Agreed I suspect that she possibly saw more. And I'm not sure how recovered DH is if this sort of outburst is occurring despite wife and other kids trying to break it up.

She needs to be assessed properly, potentially for emotionally unstable personality disorder, and complete dbt fully. She will not be considered for dbt if she is not fully invested however as it would be a waste of a space that someone else might benefit greatly from. I’d also consider organising a few family therapy sessions for you, her and dh to attend. It will be important that as part of this dh takes accountability for the impact he had on her as a child and his at times inappropriate responses. Dh would also benefit from independently completing work around regulating his emotions. You should have a local service called iapt he can self refer to and they often offer courses online.
In terms of consequences there absolutely has to be some. Your daughter will before long be arrested, either for assaulting you or her partner, and have a physical assault charge on her record, which will impact her. She’s very unlikely to make the significant changes at the moment as she has little motivation to when she can do as she pleases without any consequences. I do believe she has the capacity to change though because she regulates herself in other situations, such as at uni. In terms of the consequence I think it’s reasonable to say to her that because of the significance of her behaviour on this occasion, and the fact it’s behaviour displayed time and time again, yourself and your husband have to have a serious think about the consequences, and it may take you a few days to determine that. Don’t be afraid to communicate your options could include reporting her to the police or removing privileges such as a phone contract (if you pay it) or holiday. If you’re set against the holiday being taken away what alternatives are you proposing as a significant enough consequence?

He had tried to leave , repeatedly. The daughter kept on blocking his way. She then went on to assault both him and his wife. Should he really have left his wife alone with the woman who had just assaulted her?

True though

She probably is traumatised and scared by her father's behaviour. I know my primary age DC has been deeply effected by her Dad's angry and at times scary behaviour. My DD has self harmed and had suicidal ideation. She's doing a lot better now with antidepressants and counselling and her Dad moving out.

The fact there's probably a cause for her behaviour doesn't change the fact that her behaviour is abusive. It doesn't make it ok and it won't stop her being arrested if she acts to someone else like her boyfriend the way she did to her Dad. The wrong consequence though isn't necessarily better than no consequence at all. I would be seeking a genuine heartfelt commitment to starting to make some changes, to owning her behaviour and she would need to start counselling ASAP as conditions of getting her return flights to Mexico. Her university might have counselling services. The one I went to had cheaper subsidised counselling for students.

Whether she can control herself or not in the moment she can still learn how to manage the anger before it becomes blind rage. How to step away and disengage and de-escalate. She will need support and help to learn this. It requires a real commitment and she will need to practice the techniques when calm so they can be accessed when angry. She will need to learn to recognise the signals that she is getting to that place so she doesn't end up there. Whatever the cause of these rages she is still responsible for her behaviour and if she won't accept that or blames others then nothing will change.

100% your daughter has autism.

Your posts are all excuses and trying to minimise how awful she is.

She has assaulted her parents, but her Dad had a temper too!
She has smashed things in the house, but she works really hard!

She might have ADHD or PCOS so all of this is forgivable. Oh and she might be depressed so that makes it all understandable. Utter bollocks.

This is unacceptable behaviour. At 18, she is an adult and she doesn't get to go through life beating up on people!

You should have your husbands back. No Mexico. If she raises her hands in the house again, you kick her out.

Stop enabling this! It is HER responsibility to go see a doctor and therapist and engage with them. She is 18 not 8. Excuses after excuses from you won't help her.

The next person she hits could be the one that lands her in prison and it would be deserved. She sounds awful and you all center life around her. Maybe it's time she learns that she isn't the most important person in the room and if she doesn't get help in regulating herself soon, there will be consequences.

100%?
Really?

I would be reminding DD every time she says she can't believe her Dad hit her that she hit you and kicked him in the balls first and that she has physically injured him on other occasions too.
To me, they are two adults and he was provoked and defending himself. Your daughter needs to seek anger management for herself. She is old enough to get help and learn to recognise what triggers her and how to behave.

I would not be paying her ticket until she successfully under goes treatment.

Christmas needs your houshold to be civil and forgive each other. Wrap up a small gift forDD. She knows why there is no other gift; the other gift is retracted due to her violence.

If she becomes horrid ask her and the boyfriend to leave. Have a plan so that you request they go and DH disappears to a quiet place until they've left.

There are many days until Easter and DD might have earnt her flight by then...or not..it's her call.

sorry but shes 18... she wouldnt be getting shit from me. Shes an entitled brat, either that or quite severly SEN in which case you should have been on that way before she reached 18!! Her attitude i personally dont think is normal. She cant just assault people!!

Are you joking?! She pushed and pushed saying vile things, then she kicked him in the balls! Not only excruciatingly painful but bloody dangerous, she could've caused him serious injury! I'm not surprised he slapped her. She is a grown adult, if she can moderate her behaviour at work she damn well can at home. Tough shit if growing up it wasn't perfect, time to put big girl pants on and grow the fuck up before she turns into an abusive, violent partner herself.

So she grew up with a father that was emotionally abusive and has struggled with mental health - it sounds like she has experienced trauma as a result of growing up this way and this needs to be dealt with through counseling.
Your husband is unreasonable threatening to take away her access to education if she goes around his punishment.
Whilst her behavior is completely out of line, his punishment is to not give her her Christmas present. He can't then double punish her if she decides to buy the plane ticket herself.

Your husband also needs to accept his accountability and saying oh he's changed and is better now doesn't take away the trauma he has caused her.

Also no she wouldnt be getting anything for xmas from me if she had done that.

That's a great post @EliflurtleAndTheInfiniteMadness and I'm so glad your daughter is doing better. I really understand the link between angry fathers - (but not violent so considered ok!) - and self harm, suicidal ideation, eating disorders, low self-worth all pushed down behind this high achieving hardworking exterior. It's about never feeling safe, whatever you do. But it can get so much better, and patterns don't have to repeat themselves, the cycle can be broken.

ALSO yeah she is basically an adult and if another adult assaulted me id be slapping them too.

Your DH is right that the cycle of violence and rage in his family's generations needs to stop, but the way to do that isn't through a kneejerk reaction to this latest blow-up. It's through a calm and sensible mutual plan to address this. Taking her holiday away will only escalate the conflict between them. The wiser move is to come to an agreement with her - she can go on holiday and then needs a proper assessment, counselling, possibly medication and whatever else comes out of that process. It's not on for her to chalk it up to 'losing control' and it's not a matter of 'punishment' being the solution.

She's still only 18 and she absolutely needs to stop this before she assaults her boyfriend or someone else, because that is what is going to happen next if she doesn't address it. The DH's issues, going back into his past and the way he was parented, are all part of this, but again can't be dealt with in a "all his fault" way nor in a "DD needs to stop it even though I couldn't until I was older" way. You need to take the lead here, OP, not be dominated by these louder voices. It needs a grown up approach that is long-term, sustained and agreed. Which is very much not about taking her holiday away or her student funding, as if she's a toddler who can be put on the naughty step and learn a lesson. This is her nature and nurture and it will take time and maturity, not tit for tat. That is just playing the same game all over again and putting fuel on the fire.

My best friend has 3 children, her daughter has the exact same traits as yours. Violent outbursts aimed directly at her dad (to the point neighbours have called the police as it sounds like someone is being murdered), she is fine with her siblings, and mainly OK with her mum. She's been diagnosed with autism. She can't hold a job down and has few friends because eventually they walk away as its so unpredictable how she'll be any particular day.

That was meant for @queenofallqueens

But is a lovely kind girl who passed her driving test etc. She's very literal, is your daughter?

Because Christmas is so close, the withdrawal of her gift is an obvious, easy threat to make. What consequences would you be using if this fight had happened at a different time of year?

I think it is reasonable not to pay for her trip, but it isn't reasonable to prevent her from funding it herself.

I'm so sorry, what an awful time for you all 🙁 I would definitely look at having her seen privately by a psychiatrist, she sounds as though she is really struggling and it won't get better without serious intervention. Could it possibly be Borderline Personality/Emotional Unstable Disorder?

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/borderline-personality-disorder/overview/

DD was the same. We had a truly horrendous few years

She ended up leaving home at 17, She has since been diagnosed with Bipolar disorder and we are starting to rebuild our relationships with her

It sounds to me like RSD.
She also reminds me of my dd 33 who is autistic. This is the sort of thing that she does. Last month she hit me very hard with a metal drinking bottle. I had to call the police to protect myself. I'm 70 and I'm very afraid when she has a meltdown. Has your daughter been assessed for autism or adhd?
Sending hugs 🫂

Your dh is absaloutely right and good on him restraining her when she went for you. How she's got this far without anything proper being done I don't know. 4 children and if one even physically hit me there would be severe consequences never mind from and screaming etc. I cannot blame your hubby at all. You know which side you should stand on sorry it's plain and simple. Even if there is something going on guess what it's unacceptable and you still get some consequences. Would I pay for her to go to Mexico no way, tbh she doesn't even sound safe to go as she can't always control herself appropriately and Mexico ain't the place to kick off. The dilemma is she clearly can control it at uni etc. She has her targets and that means she knows exactly what she's doing. I hope you get sorted but you and hubby really need to stick together on this as a unit and not break down. Our oldest lost a holiday once and that was only for backhandingly calling me a name a few years ago. It never happened again but his dad was sorry you do not speak to your mother like that and here's the consequence