Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

Good.
Maybe you will do something about it now.
Because you and your dd deserve better.
He's the main problem and the utter source of it all.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy / @SlightlyJaded just don't forget in all this that you matter too. In your eagerness to help and support your husband and daughter and seek therapy and understanding for them - don't keep putting yourself last in your family. You deserve counselling too, you deserve the chance to process everything you've been through in your marriage. They're clearly such big explosive personalities that you never get a look in, but you're valuable and important and worthy of care too.

Merry Christmas.

OP I’m glad you have reached some peace with your update and perhaps you didn’t include it but please can I ask that you talked to your DH about slapping your DD? His physically violence was not a rational response to what his DD was doing. He should be able to walk away. Or even push her away. But slapping her across the face is very extreme and is a decision rather than a quick response.

Btw I grew up in a home where a man’s emotional baggage / trauma was used as a get out for all sorts of appalling verbal abuse. I still have not forgiven or forgotten the past, and I was never slapped across the face.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy Well done OP. You're doing well and on the right track. Have a good Xmas. x

Aww, op, so glad you updated us all. Seems like you have made some progress, especially encouraged to read about you dh acknowledging his behaviours in the past. Keep communicating with each other (you and dh) and be the team you dd needs
Good luck

Have to say I agree with this. My mum would do this “should I leave him? Should we get divorced????” Even at 18 after my (loved) father had pushed me around, it wasn’t my job to make that decision or be my mother’s therapist.

I think my parents are happy together - all I know is that their marriage fucked me and my 2 siblings up massively. My younger brother has severe MH issues, I married an abusive man, my sister also had a failed marriage to a horrible man.

My exH is currently playing with our kids and reading DD a story. They still have a relationship with their father - despite how he’s treated me and the behaviour he exposed them to, I try to make sure they have time with him (while limiting how much time they actually spend with him so there are guardrails in place). I’m the oak, and they don’t grow up walking on eggshells and scared of when the next rage attack will occur.

Well done OP it sounds like you are dealing with what is a very difficult situation calmly and carefully. Wishing you all a peaceful day tomorrow and best wishes going forward

so my dad was very angry/ragey when I was a child and throughout my teenage years. It was particularly awful when I was a teenager because I had my own voice and would stand up to him so we would get into big blowouts.

Any rage etc directed towards me got less and less from when I was about 18/19 once I went to uni - I think because he saw me as an adult then and realised he could no longer shout at me etc he has has not raised his voice to me in years.

I am 31 years old now and unfortunately the years of anger and emotional abuse I experienced growing up at his hands has left me with a lot of trauma that means when it comes to my dad I will literally loose my shit with him at the drop of a hat and become this insane angry/shouty person. I am never like this ever with anyone else. But if I even so slightly thing he has wronged me in some way It’s like this switch goes off in my head and I regress to this 13 year old having screaming matches with my dad - even if he doesn’t retaliate.

I don’t know if this helps but I thought I would share my experience as it sounds like your daughter might be acting from a place of deep unresolved trauma and needs lots of proper talk therapy to get through it. I would suggest using the money for the flights for comprehensive therapy for her and your family as a unit.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy - thank you so much for coming back and updating. I think it sounds as if you’ve had some difficult but honest conversations, and have found a constructive way to start to move forward.

I disagree with some PP who are clearly disproportionately affected by their own experiences. I think you’re handling this very well and have real insight into the dynamics of your family unit.

It would be great if none of us ever made mistakes but sometimes we can screw up even when we think we are doing the right thing. You can’t change the past but you can ensure that the same mistakes aren’t repeated and it seems to me that’s what you’re doing now.

I hope you get some answers for DD in the new year and that your family is able to move forward in a positive way.

Have a lovely Christmas 🎄💐

Just reading your last post OP - and you do seem to be excusing your partner, you say he had trauma and left it to late, I just wonder if perhaps from your DD's perspective if you have always put him and his bad behaviour first?

OP I'm pleased you have talked this through and decided on a course of action to get to the route cause of DD's behaviour but what about making a practical plan for what happens next time DD loses it? A discussion on strategies to de-escalate conflict in advance may be useful.

Disproportionately affected?
You really haven't a clue what you are talking about. Sit down.
She's not handling it at all.
People exusing his behaviour here are appalling.

That's one lesson learned then : if you hit out at people , they hit back. Rightly so. It's almost comical that she scarcely believes that he hit her.
But there's nothing comical about your other children having to live with this. They must constantly be on tenterhooks waiting for the next explosion. I think she has to be taken out of the situation. Her behaviour is atrocious and her rages are damaging to every member of the family. You are a wreck, your husband is too, and your other children do not have a home where they feel safe. Your daughter has to go. And not to Mexico.
She can find a bedsit somewhere and puzzle over why she at long last didn't get away with it.

This is serious. Your daughter’s behaviour is affecting everyone in the family. She clearly has issues not just within the family but outside (with her BF and friends). It may be learned behaviour, something troubling her, or an undiagnosed medical condition she’s not even aware of. Your relationship with your daughter isn’t going to improve on its own without Professional help and intervention. In the meantime her volatility needs to be kept in check. Maybe silence on everyone’s part & just going about your “business” and ignoring her will shame her into calming down if no one reacts to her outbursts? Just a thought … Wishing you peace …

She's an adult. If she lashes out to a none family member, 'not being able to control herself' isn't a legal defence.

She needs to grow up and stop making excuses.

After 28 pages can the “punish her out of her trauma” crowd please shut up? OP has at least recognized the problem is her child’s abysmal, terrorized, childhood. No one with any training in childhood trauma would recommend the spiteful , authoritarian, slap in the face response advocated for by the mumsnet tough girls.

I will not condone OP’s DH for hitting his daughter, as violence is never the answer, and yes, he should be able to restrain himself no matter what the provocation.
However, as a man who has testicles I would offer a possible explanation, certainly not an excuse.
I have been hit in the balls accidentally over the years with varying degrees of force, and the feeling is worse than pain. It's horrendously extreme disorientation, discombobulation, call it what you will, but is unlike any other sensation. I difficult for me to imagine that a woman can feel anything like it. Being hit in the balls by accident, I know it's a one off and even a gentle tap will take at least 5 minutes for the feeling to go away. If I were deliberately hit in the balls I don’t know what I would do, but I would probably do the first thing I could to prevent a second blow. If this was a one off and the hitting occurred in a second after she hit him in the balls, it's not necessarily correct to assume that he’s a violent man and would hit anyone when he was angry or provoked. If the hitting was 5 seconds after he was hit, he’s a violent man. If he had hit after being hit anywhere but in the balls, he’s a violent man.
This has nothing to do with any backstory of his historical behaviour; I’m only looking at the instant when the two hits occurred.

Thank you for explaining that. It was quite obvious even to those of us without balls. In this case the DF had a long history of abuse and though the slap may have been involuntary the rest of the relationship is not.

Glad to see your update OP - sounds like you all have done some good talking and laid a good basis for going forward. I hope you can find someone who can give you all some good support in taking responsibility for your own actions. There are some bonkers posts on here with people clearly projecting their own lives onto this situation. Good luck.

Self defense is not assault. The person doing the assaulting here was the daughter, and only the daughter.

Many people with physically and emotionally abusive fathers do not turn out that way.

Your husband did a terrific job of getting his rages in check if he stayed calm after your daughter repeatedly assaulted him leaving marks almost every time. Now it is his job of recognizing his part in it, if he is indeed responsible seeing as how the other kids do not seem to have the same problem.

Whether or not it is his fault, if she doesn't resolve her anger issues, there will be trouble sooner rather than later. She needs to take responsibility like her father eventually did.

ETA: Wishing you all the best, rooting for you.

Oh gosh, this sounds so close to my experience with my dad. It's almost exactly the same (the details are different of course - in our worst rage, when I was about 17, I hit him in the chest, and he held me by the throat). I recognise so much of your DD's behaviour and triggers, and also your DH's control and the effects of a crappy childhood. My DM was caught in the middle, too. Your story has affected me quite deeply.

I'm in my early 30s now. Our relationship remained complicated until he died two years ago. I still have mixed feelings towards him, although ultimately I always really loved DF and he loved me. If anyone asked, I'd say he was a good dad who did his best, and life is complicated.

The thing that helped us was time and distance. I matured out of my teens first and foremost, but I also moved away to Scotland for university, and stayed there a lot during the holidays. Having control over my own life, and learning to be self sufficient lessened my rage immensely.

FWIW, I am completely neurotypical, and have no mental conditions. I was just very, very angry with my dad.

I've now been happily married to a patient and calm man for over a decade. I am still sometimes quick to temper and have to walk away from situations, but I think that's like anyone else. I have a strong desire to seek tranquility and balance and quiet in my own life and household, which is definitely a response to the relationship I had with DF.

FWIW I would say let your DD pay for herself to go to Mexico, so don't pay for flights but do keep paying university costs. And I would expect an apology for physical violence from both DD and DH, as well as for upsetting you and siblings. And then longer term, if it were me, I would try and get DD to consider travelling/working/studying through university holidays, so she doesn't end up being back home and winding up/getting wound up by your DH.

Thanks for proving my point 😂🤦🏻‍♀️

About how wrong you are?
No pet, you did that all by yourself.
Aren't you clever.