Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

Dd sounds like she needs a proper assessment, I hate to do armchair psychology but her behaviour is very similar to a relative of mine with unstable emotional personality disorder.

Your DH sounds like he has been excessively controlling outside of him also being violent. He's trying to control what an adult can do in her own free time with her own money.

He can choose to not pay for the flight but his attempts to stop her going at all are disgusting.

I'm not surprised she lashes out at him after everything she's been through. You can't kick a dog every day and then blame it for biting you.

Your husband has nothing to apologise for and your daughter’s behaviour and subsequent reaction are unacceptable and inexcusable. I think you need to take a stand with your DH here because your DD has clearly decided that any past events justify her behaviour and attitudes. A lot of people do not have the best relationships with their parents but they would never dream of behaving like this.
Tbf your daughter sounds very entitled and seems to have a record of getting away with bad behaviour. You need to show a united front now and be firm because her behaviour is shocking.

Regarding her claim that she can’t control her rage: let me guess…this only applies to her home life and lot with friends or at work/ school/ university?

Exactly how bad was your husband's behaviour and his rages while she was growing up?

She needs consequences. That's life.

I wouldn't pay for her to go to Mexico if I was him either, but I wouldn't stop her going.

She seems pretty entitled to behave as she does. She can't believe he slapped her, but she's fine with kicking between his legs.

I don't blame your DH. She needs to learn that she was 100% wrong with her whole behaviour that led up to the incident. I would be with your DH..she would have to apologise sincerely She fund herself in University. She clearly doesn't appreciate the support she gets. She was bang out if order.

From shouting at her BF and the language she was using to him. If she carries on like they she'll find herself dumped. She sounds very high conflict.

Just a small point but have you kept a diary of her outbursts? I wonder if this could be hormonal - PMDD I think the term is, but basically PMS from hell.

And someone she trusts, who can stay calm, should talk to her and say, this has got to stop, you don't do this at work so you can control it. DH separately needs to grow up, but she cannot and must not let her own behaviour and life be dragged down by this problem regardless of whether he addresses his own issues or not. Two wrongs don't make a right.

If she can start by recognising the early stage of an outburst and head to a quiet corner with a snack for ten minutes - just that one strategy can be a valuable change.

My dd was exactly the same, including the violence and especially the blocking doors. I strongly suspect she has BPD or whatever it's called now. She has abandonment issues from when she was tiny and her father let her down multiple times.
I would stand firm with your husband, I did a multi systemic therapy course when my dd was at her worst and it was all about tough love.

They both got out of control and it is both a reaction they both have to difficult situations or emotions. They both need to find some common ground and a calm sit down and chat might be a step forwards. They are both going to need to let the anger go if they are to move on and they both need to see that this violence has to stop now. They have to come up with a better way to communicate. You need a temporary fix and then a longer term plan. Your dd sounds like she needs help as does your dh. I feel for you as this is so difficult to navigate. My ds was also highly volatile and it took a lot of work on all sides for us to learn when to step in and then when to step out with disagreements. We did get there in the end.

I know it's always thrown out as oh there's some one suggesting asd.

But I recognise a few things of myself in this - not assaulting anyone but rages, cutting people off,masking at work and uni and meltdowns.

I was diagnosed with asd traits on my 30s but the most beneficial diagnosis was pmdd which left me self harming, volatile, depressed etc. I am now on rigevidon alongside sertraline for a more balanced life.

The violence is uncalled for but I recognise the rage and if I haven't had time to lower I'm usually at a simmer point waiting for the boil, and something small will tip it over.

Oh that sounds like a horrible situation, I’m so sorry OP. Sounds like there’s a lot more going on with your DD than just being short tempered. Having said that, however, kicking off and physically attacking people isn’t acceptable, no matter what’s behind it.

I think your DH is partially right, she should lose the money for the flights, but I don’t think he should block her from going at all, on pain of damaging her education. If she has the money and she can pay for the flights, she can go. She’s an adult, and your husband doesn’t have the right to curtail the movement of another adult under any circumstances for a start, but he’s also just being pigheaded at this point and needs to wind it in a bit.

The thing she’ll learn from is consequences, not punishment, and the consequences of her kicking off is that she doesn’t get her flights paid for. How she deals with those consequences is up to her, and it’s also how she’ll build her character. I think you’re right, removing the thing she’s looking forward to is unnecessarily cruel and will have the opposite effect to what you want, but having her make it harder for herself because of her behaviour is perfectly reasonable.

Can you sit DH down when he’s calm and sort this out with him? I’m afraid if it was me, I’d be very firm and there would be consequences with me if he chose to be unnecessarily cruel and counter-productive in punishing our child. Cruel and unusual punishments were the preserve of my own parents, and not only did they not work, it’s resulted in serious irreparable lasting damage to our relationship.

And yes as a PP said it sounds very similar to BPD/EUPD. While obviously her behaviour is unacceptable it isn't something she currently has control over. It's a condition that arises from childhood trauma so it's not her fault she is acting this way - at least for the moment.

There is a lot of stigma about the condition being untreatable but it's not true - it's completely treatable and possible to achieve full remission. I was diagnosed with it in my early 20s but after extensive therapy and treatment I haven't met the diagnostic criteria for several years now. My last outburst was over a decade ago and I live a calm and stable life now.

Back when I was ill I really did have no control over things in the moment. All your emotions are turned up to 11 and you react to rejection like someone is trying to murder you - desperate fighting for your life against them. It's entirely out of proportion but it feels fully real in the moment and for a few weeks afterwards. Eventually you do gain insight after the emotions fade away but it takes weeks sometimes.

She needs a referral to a psychiatrist and probably DBT but the exact treatment is better decided on by a professional. Please get her help - this can be fixed but only if everyone works together.

She needs to get her shit together.
We all have problems but we don't walk around abusing people especially the ones who love us the most.
She sounds like she needs a health overhaul to manage her temper.
Team DH here.

I think the 'natural consequence' for your dd in that moment was the slap, and taking away the holiday is maybe going above and beyond re punishment. I disagree that she can control it if she's not like that in all settings as it sounds like a relational problem and she's like it in all her close relationships (bf as well as you and DH). It sounds like she needs dialectical behavioural therapy. But as of now she doesn't have the skills to manage her intense distress in those states, so further punishment wouldn't be effective

Is it possible it's an autistic meltdown? Doesn't justify her behaviour, but might explain it. Autism is very under diagnosed in smart girls

I so feel for you. It sounds very scary.
Mental health problems in whatever form are not defence for being violent. Outside of your family environment she would be arrested and charged which is how it should be.
I accept your DH’s stance as being justified. She needs help OP, I know you know that. I wish I could offer sound advice but it seems so complicated. If it were me I’d be seriously worried about what she might do next and to whom.

I think the rejection and abandonment being the trigger is the most relevant part. I agree with @PooglesWood that there may be some personality disorder at play here. Bear in mind though that the term personality disorder can be very shaming and gendered. There is some thinking that many women who are neurodivergent are misdiagnosed as having a personality disorder and/or that it can be a response to relational trauma. I would try and find a psychologist who can try and unpick some of this.

I'm not convinced that this is going to sorted through tough love, but rather through actual love and support with a recognition that she/you do need to get to the bottom
of what is happening and get some really
decent, specialised therapy to put strategies in place to help her manage the overwhelming feelings of rejection and abandonment that then trigger an uncontrollable rage.

she is displaying this rage in her relationships with the most attachment and she is in danger of losing those relationships and she is acting in an abusive way. If her boyfriend were treating her this way I am sure you would be telling her to leave him.

good luck to
you and her. She is showing that she is in deep distress.

I agree with this.

Shes 18. An adult.

If she cant stand the heat, she needs to get out the kitchen.

Regardless of your DH temper, before or after this event, no one should get away with an attack like that and he was right to dish out to her what she gave to him.

Kick her the fuck out and let her see what life is really all about. She sounds utterly ruined and spoilt - I dont buy the mental health bullshit for one second.

She knew exactly what she was doing - to get a reaction, and she got one.

She can now suffer the consequences of her actions.

If that was my kid, her feet wouldnt touch the fucking floor.

I think that money needs to be spent on therapy and anger management for both of them but her as a priority. He should never have hit her but I could understand it if it was an instinctive reaction to being hit in the testicles opposed to an ongoing, thought out attack

She is old enough to have children, imagine what could happen if she loses her shit at them. Going on holiday is the least of her worries.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy I think PMDD needs to be investigated too.

It doesn't sound like she is mature enough to go to Mexico, nor is her relationship with her boyfriend stable enough. For those reasons alone I would not be funding or supporting such a trip in anyway.

Her behaviour is awful, but you obviously know that. How does she manage at uni with peers etc, does she have such outbursts with them? How is she going to cope in work situations, or if she has a family of her own? Her uni should offer some good counselling services etc, I would be encouraging her to take up these.

I really hope she's not assaulting her BF in the same way.
If she isn't, it shows she can actually control her anger.
If she is, then the BF needs help and to know he shouldn't put up with this kind of behaviour from anyone.

I wouldn’t have her in the house until she’d apologised profusely and committed to therapy. Her Christmas money can go towards the therapy sessions.

If she doesn’t learn to control herself she’ll end up picking on the wrong person or pushing someone too far and getting seriously hurt.

Can you tell us how your husband behaved in her early years? Did she witness or experienced domestic violence?

I wonder how she would describe to her boyfriend what happened? Would she acknowledge her own behaviour? Has he ever witnessed it?

Personally, I'm not fond of punishments that affect the giver as much as the receiver. I never liked grounding when my children were teenagers, because my life was more miserable than theirs as a result.

Thank you. I am reading and re-reading every response. Obviously, I am not going to add up the 'for and against' posts and go with the majority but there are so many nuggets of wisdom and experience here which will help me clear my thoughts.

DH was volatile in earlier years. I mentioned this because I think it's relevant to her behaviour now. Her siblings are more easy going than her - always have been - so when DH was at his most difficult, they would butt heads because she would challenge him on his behaviour and words. It's hard to explain how he was, but drinking fuelled by grief and then a massive family betrayal made him quite angry for quite a long time. He would explode and shout and take out his pain on me (mostly) but the DC saw/heard. He was never physical but that sort of doesn't matter. There were times when I felt I had to leave the house (taking DC with me) and leave him to spiral and rant and rage alone because he was so deeply in his pain/rage. It was not often but it happened. He got himself sorted and dealt with his demons so his behaviour is now very different, but DD hasn't forgotten.

DH acknowledges this but asks how us not punishing DD is going to help her. DH's father was a prick that did emotional damage to him and he just asks "do we keep passing it down and doing nothing?". Sometimes he makes sense to me and at others I find it hypocritical and short sighted and think he is more concerned with having control of the situation than resolving it. I don't know. He loves DD fiercely and champions and supports all her endeavours - but he just says now she has to be 'stopped'.

Sorry - I'm rambling. I don't want to drip feed.