Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

No way would she get a penny from me…I would also ask her to leave the house….not fair on the other DC ….she needs to be gone

I think it’s fair that she pay her own flights but I think that’s punishment enough. IMO

I think the Mexico trip needs to be postponed.

That's how I would phrase it. I would say that it's more important to spend the money on getting a diagnosis, and this is how you are supporting her and (all of) her relationships. This inability to regulate emotions could be hormonal, but the circumstances that you describe sounds a little like rejection sensitive dysphoria which is co morbid with neurodiverse conditions. These could also make it more challenging to regulate emotions. The rages could also sound like meltdowns.

I know people will sneer at neurodiverse conditions being offered up as a differential diagnosis but I just wondered if the suggestion links together any other behaviours?

Well she needs to learn it
I'm siding with dh because she's on course to be a very violent, manipulative wife and mother otherwise.

Could she be autistic op? I wonder if they're meltdowns if she feels she can't control it. Although that's no excuse for her behaviour.

Offer the money towards therapy.

But doesn't he see that what he's insisting on will just cause more emotional damage? I'm certainly not saying to brush this under the carpet, but his idea that 'consequences that hurt' will fix this deep-rooted, complicated problem (that his treatment of his family caused) is so wrong.

Imagine if he'd got help for his dysfunctional childhood before he had his own family, and all the suffering you could all have been spared. You have the chance to do that for your daughter, but like a pp said she needs real love not tough love.

Tough love time I think, but not paying for the trip is enough, your DH would be going too far in preventing her from going; at 18 you can't expect her to behave like an adult and then still treat her like a child.

The fact that she treats you and her close friends so badly says to me that she has been getting away with it, even benefiting from it...and that has to stop. ASD or other issues maybe, but even so she can't treat people like she does. She can clearly keep it buttoned when she needs to, so don't enable her to behave with family as she does.

I grew up in a volatile and aggressive family, and married a similar man (now divorced), but I will not tolerate it in my kids - that's the best Christmas present you can give to your daughter's future, leaning from this awful incident.

Btw your daughter sounds like me when I’m having a meltdown. They happened a lot at 18 when I didn’t realise what was going on. It’s taking years of learning to regulate my emotions. If I don’t address my emotions quickly, I’ll have a meltdown. If I’ve passed the point in no return there’s nothing that can be done to calm me. It’s constant hard work and fucking exhausting but I try my hardest because I love my family and I don’t want to be verbally and emotionally abusive (I’m only violent towards myself) but I couldn’t do that at 18. It doesn’t excuse DD though, I was punished and outcasted by friends and family and I slowly had to learn that actually I was the problem. I understand now I’m the problem and it’s me that sees things differently but most often I still don’t understand why and struggle to empathise. I just try to control myself and like I said, it’s exhausting.

To answer some questions about DD's rages

Typical triggers are rejection/perception of laughing at her
She has shown this behaviour to friends and BF which is why I believe that she genuinely doesn't choose it. She has lost friends.
With DH yesterday - I could see that the goading and door blocking was because she actually wanted resolution I think. She started the eruption but then exhausted herself and wanted it all to 'go back' , She was 'demanding' an apology from DH (ridiculously) so that in her head, it can all be finished now and she hasn't 'backed down'.

I don't know waht the fuck that all means.

She has asked for DBT in the past. We tried to find a dialectal behaviour therapist but struggled. Do people thing it's worth trying again?

What is PPMD please?

To those saying DH is right. Do you believe that he is right in stopping her going full stop. Or just paying?

OP you can't punish a psychiatric disorder out of a person. Only treatment will help.

And for people saying she can manage it because she doesn't get angry at others, you always lose it on those who are most stable in your life because the entire thing is about being utterly terrified of losing someone and being unable to handle that emotion. You hold back on someone are less close with but you can't hold it back forever so it comes out when you feel safer.

OP you said this was triggered by a fight with her BF - she feels insecure in that relationship so took it out on someone she felt wouldn't leave her. It's similar to masking that autistic people sometimes do. He needs to show her now more than ever that he is there for her, not doubling down on pushing her away.

You say it sort of doesn't matter that your DH was never 'physical' - I think it does. That's not to excuse his other behaviour - of course that's not ok. But physical violence is a big step up (and that's not a learned behaviour for your DD). I don't think you're taking that seriously enough - this time she has chosen to assault two people who are not willing to take things further, but next time if she picks someone else (say her boyfriend) that could be different. Even if you're not particularly concerned about the risk of others being hurt by her, even for your DD that could be life changing - an arrest and caution for assault will bar her from many professions and have a life long impact

Also OP, did you ever get therapy for what you went through? It must have been very hard to try to protect your children from his drunken rages, and while you're very compassionate and understanding of him I hope you offer that same compassion to yourself.

I'm so sorry to read this and you sound very worried. It must be very agonizing for you.

None of this reads right, but I definetely think your DH could have controlled himself more. Had this been a spat at work and he got physical, the consequences could have been severe. And yes I know she hit first.

At the point he lashed out, and she started reacting, a grown adult and father would have left the room.

I also feel for your other children. I don't have much ( or any!) advice really, I just hope it all works out with time, counselling? and boundaries

Sorry if this sounds harsh but she's a fucking brat. She wouldn't be coming for Christmas and I'd be backing DH in your position. She needs to learn that her actions have consequences, she's 18 and acting like a toddler. Time for madam to grow up.

She now pays for herself to go to Mexico. The Christmas money goes towards getting her some professional help.
Shes 18 and needs to learn how to control herself or she’s never going to get anywhere in life if she flys off the handle and assaults people. Vile behaviour, frankly.

great. The OP needs to hear her child is a fucking brat. Mega helpful.

So what happens if she behaves this way in Mexico with her bf and his family? She doesn't seem stable enough to safely go on the trip and therapy should be the priority here for her own (and others) safety.

You can’t stop her going she’s an adult.

Has she been assessed for ASD?

She shouldn’t be going on the trip, she needs consequences to her actions….sounds like she doesn’t normally get consequences as there’s a belief that she might have an underlying condition. She also shouldn’t be travelling to another country with her boyfriend and his family…what would happen if something like this happened whilst they were out there?? What if she hit someone and the police ended up involved? What if she ended up in a Mexican prison? I can’t imagine the boyfriends family would be too accommodating if she started hitting them or their son.

First off I think he needs to distinguish between I am not paying for you to go to Mexico in the flights (an arguably acceptable consequence) and the I will not let you go and if you do go I will withdraw - completely not acceptable.

so I would first talk to get that agreed

is she is the eldest, there seems to be a certain amount of it’s her personality the other two weren’t affected but if she were the oldest she would have seen more felt more responsible you and your DH need to recognise his part in all of this. How did he recover, how did he get better

abd no she doesn’t need to be stopped he caused this, she needs to be helped supported and I suspect quite a bit of therapy. Perhaps use the flight money to find th

Agree with this. The problems began with your H, his temper and outbursts which he subjected his family too. It’s great he’s acknowledged this was wrong and has sought help but he cannot suddenly forget it. Yes your dd has behaved appallingly but it’s very important your Hs earlier behaviours is acknowledged today.

If she gets nothing for Xmas and her Easter holiday is scrapped, it will not suddenly stop her from behaving badly.

And he needs to have left her alone e needs to recognise his part in pushing all of this amd the fact that he too went to far.

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy I don't think DH can or should stop her going. She's an adult, she can make her own decisions.

Having said that you don't need to fund it. So I agree with the taking the money and putting it towards therapy. I think I'd just find a more standard therapist/ counsellor in the first instance. Someone she can unload to and they can potentially guide her to further diagnoses or different therapies. This seems urgent and necessary and a good use of the money. Presumably DH had some external help to resolve his issues? So he can understand this.
I don't think he or you both should cut off her uni allowance. That seems spectacularly unfair so you can pay her for therapy and her basic needs at uni. It doesn't need to be treats etc.

So she can learn that actions have consequences and that she's an adult now and has to learn to deal with adulting behaviours. But she does also need to see she needs help and she needs to supported in accessing this help as otherwise this will end up as estrangement IMHO

He can't stop her going to Mexico as she's an adult but there's no way he should pay towards it. I think you would all benefit from some form of family therapy, it sounds like there's a lot to work through in terms of how your DH behaved when the children were little.