Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

That’s an excellent, thoughtful, nuanced, update, OP. I particularly like your acknowledgement that this is the start of the journey, not the end. Remember to seek support for yourself in the midst of all this. You can’t help others properly unless you have your own fully inflated life jacket on (or whatever that analogy is!).

Great update @MarmiteMakesMeHappy (I love Marmite too btw! Every day starts with a Marmite toastie.)

G;ad you've reached some calm for Chistmas. As for the longer term, as you;ve recognised it's a marthon not a sprint. Good shout from a pp about the MumsNet Special Needs boards - lots of experience there.

One book that might resonate for you and DH is called The Explosive Child by Ross Greene. It doesn't rely on a specific diagnosis (in fact Greene is bit dismissive of disganoses) but lots of examples and suggestions on de-escalation.

Really positive update, OP. I hope you and your family have a nice Christmas and can move forward in the new year with your daughter getting the help and support she needs.

Lovely update OP. Well done on navigating this so far.

Wishing you all a happy and peaceful Christmas, and a positive 2024.

Fab update OP

Hope you have a peaceful Christmas

Hi OP, I am one of the posters who talked about "testing people's love/abandonment/pushing as hard as she can to see if people still stay" and wanted to add - which I'm sure others have mentioned - that PMDD could also be a factor. It's particularly prevalent in women who have a history of childhood trauma and I personally have to manage a couple of days of the month very carefully, otherwise I am far more explosive than usual. It's worth reading up on and also for your DD to chart her menstrual cycle and mood swings to see if there's a correlation.

I would also say that a mental health diagnosis isn't always necessary, in my experience. I've been working with an experienced family therapist who doesn't 'do' diagnoses and I think that makes a lot of sense for people with a trauma history. The diagnosis puts it on them when actually they have had (and are holding onto) natural responses to a situation.

Wishing you all the best.

Great update OP. You sound decisive now and have a plan. This will be reassuring for your daughter. Therapeutic Parenting on FB is worth a join. Best of luck and I hope you have a lovely Christmas.

And so you continue to enable him .
And Dd has to suck it up now or she's the baddie again.
Once again you have done a number on her as parents and he comes out on top.
You are fooling yourself.

Thanks all for your support. Even those who are questioning the consequences for DH in this. To them I would ask genuinely - what is the value in him
leaving now? When people post about their partners being stuck on a cycle of pain/drinking/anger - the responses are usually 1. He needs to leave. 2. He needs to change. 3. He will never change.

So he did 2. It took a while and he is still not perfect. He is always going to have HIS dysfunctional upbringing to deal with, but he has worked hard.

And if he is accountable for being unable to moderate himself and I am accountable for being naive and not realising the long term impact of him, so staying and trying to help him through HIS trauma (even though he was completely unreasonable and at times volatile), then what should be my consequences? Seriously? I am genuinely asking.

From where I am standing, I believe that everyone has to take some accountability for how they choose now to progress. DD needs better support than I've managed to muster so far. She needs acknowledgment of her traumas (as do siblings) and to know that DH and I see her pain. But she also needs to take some responsibility for how she moves forward - as DH had to do albeit decades after the event.

And fwiw, DD and I have spoken about the fact that perhaps I should have left years ago. That I may have seemed weak or that I was prioritising DH. I have apologised and told her that if I'd had the knowledge and wisdom I have been given now, things might have been different. Her response was emphatically "I'm glad you didn't leave". That too may be naive but it was heartfelt. Her and DH have a special bond despite everything you have read here. It's nuanced and complex like most relationships.

I am also grateful for book suggestions and direction to the SEN boards. It's also a bit of a relief to know that sometimes therapy without a diagnoses of anything other than "clearly carrying trauma related rage" can be enough to start a healing pathway. I didn't know about the NHS 12 week pathway either.

Thank god for Mumsnet and merry Christmas to you all.

Well done @MarmiteMakesMeHappy, you have brokered something extraordinary which will hopefully become the start of a new start.

Everyone knows their place and that they are responsible for themselves, and from where you were a few days ago, that is a huge achievement.

Well done love, I hope Christmas goes well and all the very best for a peaceful and healthy 2024.

You are right op this is a really split thread.

It highlights the wilful ignorance and lack of understanding and even crass judgement of mental health.

It also brings about the child adult debate. A lot of mumsnet infantatalise 15-18 year olds then as soon as 18 the responses can go either way.

Good luck op.

He hasn't changed. He hit her 48 hours ago.
And you have done nothing about it.

Is a slap, after hours of very aggressive provocation culminating in a kick in the balls,unforgivable? Beating in mind he tried reasonable restraint and was repeatedly kicked and deeply scratched.

Genuine question.

Yes.
Utterly.
Unforgivable .
But he forgives himself sure clearly. He's being given a pass his entire life.
But I knew from the gitgo How this would end.
Dd having to suck it up and mum and dad being glad they can go back to sweeping it all under the carpet. Until the next time. .

@Doteycat we are not sweeping it under the carpet. In fact, if DD said to me that the only way she could feel ok was for her dad not to be here, we'd have to go down that road. She is my priority.

DD is quite strong. He was not being hit by a small ineffectual child. She was hurting him. He is covered in bruises today and has a bright red wide scratch down his chest. I do not condone slapping or hitting which is why we've gone 18 years without raising a hand. I don't even support him slapping her on this occasion, but I DO understand that he was provoked and provoked and it happened and we make mistakes.

It's not a pattern.

A pattern, I could not forgive.

I feel like we have made some progress but I accept your view.

You didn't answer my question. I am responsible for not leaving. What should my consequences be? Where does it end?

Good update @MarmiteMakesMeHappy . Im so glad you were able to take so many complicated posts on board. I am a trauma specialist—in the US so our licensing and training is very different to that jn the UK. I really feel that diagnosis first then treatment is the way to go. Every post here—even those hostile to your dd—were a diagnosis of sorts. A diagnosis that she was “just a bitch” or “an abuser” is a kind of diagnosis. Just a bad one. Look for a better one. The diagnosis should be attached to what we call the formulation which is the total view of the situation and which also includes the signposts forward.

So look for someone skilled with intergenerational and family trauma. Also don’t be avoidant of the PMDD or ASD diagnosis—the important thing is to get a handle on it nonjudgmentally. There will be a good path forward as long as you prioritize her safety snd her security and love.

I want to come back snd point out that if your dd has complex ptsd from early childhood trauma—which she does—her moments of violence are her amygdala being hijacked by an early response to danger. She is physically a big girl now, but in those moments of terror she thinks she is small and defenseless and she is fighting childs tooth and childs nail to survive. Many of us return to a child’s experience when adult in benign circumstances. A traumatized child reverts faster and Has less conscious access to adult awareness during a traumatic reenactment.

Please read The Body Keeps The Score and Pete Walker’s Complex PTSD: from Surviving to Thriving as both will give you a lot of insight into you DH and DD.

You seriously expect to pass on the responsibility of ending your marriage onto your dd? You seriously think she has the wherewithal to tell you that?
When you have PROVED over and over again you choose him over her.
You get worse with each post.
What are your consequences?
Unless you end it with this man, stand in front of your dd and tell her you take full responsibility for the shitshow you reared her in, and you expect nothing from her except she allows you to please help her, then you ain't doing shit.
You are unforgivable.
Both of you.

Great update.

someone earlier mentioned student support and this is definitely worth her investigating. Most unis will provide some free individual counselling though I agree family counselling would be good but she could have both and university counselling will be quicker than nhs counselling.

The consequences of you not leaving and instead continuing to enable you husband, will be borne by your daughter. She will live with them. She has learned that violence is never acceptable, unless it comes to her from a male authority figure. That years of abuse can be forgiven because a man makes some change (by your own admission he does not fully acknowledge the harm he caused and he violently assaulted his daughter yesterday) and yet an outburst from the child he abused is monumental in its seriousness.

She is not your priority and will surely know that. If not now then definitely when she has children of her own. I also have a mother who enabled an abusive father. Lots of your story is very familiar to me. I don't trust my mother and will never forgive the way she allowed my father to damage us, and then basically waited until we were adults and said - just as you are saying - "what's the point in me leaving now?". And "he's mellowed/changed". He hasn't really changed in any meaningful way, as shown very clearly by his current actions. He's just aged and his children aren't as vulnerable as they once were.

No we aren't all lucky enough to be raised by modern evolved parents. How patronising.
I was reared and I use the term lightly, by a mother and father just like you.
A woman who will go to any lengths to excuse her husband. And a husband who behaved exactly like yours does. It's horrific.
And you turn my stomach with every post. Because you sound like my mother in every post. Excuses. Excuses. Excuses.
He stopped when he a. Got too old. And B. I told him I'd break his fucking neck if he ever ever came near me or mine again.
And my mother was appalled at me.
I knew then I was right. Actually I knew long before it. I just didn't have the way out.
But by fuck was the day he died a good one.
And I'm NC with her. She's happy in her delusions.
He hates himself. Ah diddums. Poor abusive bastard.
Do you know who doesn't hate himself?
My dh.
Cos when his dd had teenage meltdowns and lost her shit over being bullied in school and took it out on him and called him every name under the sun and did all sorts, he stood and told her how much he loved her and he wld be here for her no matter what she called him. That he wld never waver in that. And when she crumbled he picked her up and held her while she sobbed.
So don't come at me like u have any fucking excuse.
You don't.

You clearly have some really horrendous past experiences which you've moved on from. Well done. And well done to you and your DH for dealing well with your DD.

Now look at your post. Your DH responded to your DD with love and kindness and it worked.

Try to give the OP some love and kindness and it might work. Being aggressive in your language and criticism probably won't get through and just make her feel worse. It won't help. Support helps.

You clearly have some really horrendous past experiences which you've moved on from. Well done. And well done to you and your DH for dealing well with your DD.

Now look at your post. Your DH responded to your DD with love and kindness and it worked.

Try to give the OP some love and kindness and it might work. Being aggressive in your language and criticism probably won't get through and just make her feel worse. It won't help. Support helps.

I would. If she deserved it.
If she said I've thrown him out and I've prioritised dd.
I'd champion her from the rooftops.
But I won't. No more than my parents deserved it.
I won't sugar coat how disgusting I think they are.
They have bigger problems than what I think of them.

@Doteycat ok. You're fucking angry and that's fine. You have obviously suffered and are angry at the parallels you are drawing with your own relationships. And I am sure there are some. I've been open about my ignorance and failures.

Being vile to someone who is on the floor as I currently am emotionally, doesn't read like constructive posting - just a kicking to someone who is trying to get it right now.

I'm sorry I sounded patronising - I was just explaining how my view of marriage and family was formed. My DH has done all the kind and loving things your DH has done for DD, but he left it late to deal with his trauma and yes, she suffered.

Well done for repeatedly telling me. I've got it.