Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

I think he's right in not paying. The house will be more peaceful for everyone without her.

People are saying she an adult, he can't stop her going...fine. As an adult, let her fund the trip herself and fund her studies.

If she was demanding an apology after what she did, she on another planet.

If my daughter did that, I'd be furious and the only reason I'd continue paying for uni, is because we're her guarantors for her flat.

She's lost friends and still won't change. If I had a son, I wouldn't want him in a relationship with someone so volatile and violent. I'd be worried she could lash out and cause serious injury then if he retaliated, she'd be seen as the victim as a female.

She needs serious help.
She needs serious consequences otherwise how will she learn.

I would look into

Rejection sensitivity

Premenstrual dysphoric disorder

ODD (In autism spectrum disorder (ASD), symptoms of oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) are common but poorly understood. DSM-5 has adopted a tripartite model of ODD, parsing its features into 'angry and irritable symptoms' (AIS), 'argumentative and defiant behavior' (ADB) and 'vindictiveness'.)

I would also consider emotional abuse from a triggering childhood of abuse, add in the stress we all feel in the run up to Christmas

It's not OK but I remember having heated arguments with my that were furiously bubbling away and I needed escapism to rebalance and if she didn't I would get extremely emotional/upset. This has now progressed to self harm.

@Thisoldchestnut she can hold a job down though. She has had one p/t job for 18 months and is working another job in her Uni city. She is able to do her work although her attention span is shit to be fair.

She functions well when it comes to hard work/organisation/planning/resourcefulness. She cannot regulate her emotions or behaviour when triggered. She gets fixated on a single point and wants everyone to agree with whatever this one point it.

DH is also very stubborn.

They are quite similar.

She is at work now and I am dreading the end of her shift. DH is not budging. He thinks she needs to accept that Mexico was a luxury she doesn't deserve and the point he is making is that he is struggling to top her Uni living expenses up and why should he do that whilst she saves for a five star trip.

I can see his point of view, but I still don't think I agree.

I have come round to thinking he is right to not pay for her flight, but not right to stop her going, full stop. But he is saying that by paying for her living expenses, he is still facilitating her being able to save for the trip. He is so fixated on this being the 'right course of action'.

Really?? What qualifies you to make this diagnosis?

Look up autism and how it affects girls. Would anyone choose to behave like that? If you add the behaviour of her Father when she was young then it's a bit of a perfect storm for behavioural problems. I don't think your husband seems to have as much control of his temper as you are making out. He is the adult and he needs to learn to stay in control of himself.

She had a row with her boyfriend which is a trigger for her. Your husband knew this and still went in her room instead of giving her space. Then went back in again later. Was he trying to goad her? Why did he do that. Autism is all about the nervous system over reacting to life's challenges and after past behaviour probably her nervous system, which was ready to blow after her row with partner, senses danger when your partner came in.

How is this financial situation his choice? If he refuses to pay can't she just drop out of Uni and still go to Mexico? I think you should separate this fight from the trip. It's stupid to join them and your DH is just making an awful situation worse by ruining Christmas as you say. I think tell your husband that you will still pay for the trip and that's the end of it. Then that's one of your problems gone. The other problem is not just DD behaviour but the fact that your husband played a part in this and instigated this fight. Has he acknowledged his previous rage problem?

Use this as a chance to get a therapist for DD or an assessment for autism. It's not her fault she behaves this way but if she refuses help then it is her fault. Your DH needs to sort his rage out too. How have you forgiven him for how he behaved with you?

Weird I'm from an autistic family and not one acts like this

Given her shouting down phone at BF, if she hadn’t got violent with him yet, she will and her relationships will get her reported to the police. It may well soon be out of your hands

This is an example of why women should leave abusive angry men when the kids are young

Look what staying has done

She is behaving this way as she's seen her dad do it with limited consequences through her childhood

Her behaviour is the symptom not the underlying issue here which needs to be tackled

Sorry but i would leave him

That went thru my head I bet the bf doesn't have a great life. Probably keeps a lot to himself

II wouldn't be paying for her to go either; I'd only offer the money for paying for therapy/counselling directly.

And I wouldn't allow her back in your home until she is getting help.

She assaulted your husband. She is abusive and volatile. And if she pulls that shit with anyone else, the police are going to be involved.

She needs help. And it's not fair to your family to inflict her behaviour on them until she gets it.

DH is right not to pay, attacking her family like that absolutely should have major consequences. She is lucky that she isn't in a police station right now.

Is she even likely to make it to Easter with the BF if she behaves like this?

OP look at it this way re Mexico: if she loses her shit in Mexico like this and police are involved, you do NOT want her ending up in a Mexican prison.

What help did your DH get - does he recognise at all the part his behaviour has played at all

To be honest, if she's screaming abuse at her boyfriend and physically assaulting people will his family even want to take her on holiday?! I'm amazed he's stayed with her two years if this is how she behaves.
Sorry, that's not helpful but I'd be worried about her outbursts. She can't carry on like this.

OP, you can't change his mind. He is going to destroy what relationship he has left with her. It sounds like he's in control of everything - the finances, the decisions - and you don't get a say.

I hope he doesn't destroy your relationship with her as well. It sounds like there's a lot of collateral damage from his problems. I hope you and your daughter both get some helpful, constructive therapy to work through what's happened. It doesn't sound like he's on board.

Aside from everything else going on, I feel sorry for her BF. If they end up living together, will this be his life, filled with domestic violence, always worried in case he says the wrong thing to her and she beomes violent.

She desperately needs help so she doesn't continue this behaviour into adulthood. I agree with pp, that's where any spare funds should go at this time.

She winds like a fucking nightmare. I do t blame your dh one bit for slapping her, I would’ve too.

How horrific for your other dcs.

You sound very passive IMO OP.

*sounds!

@MarmiteMakesMeHappy massive squishes. This is my son. This is life as a single mum with a child like this.

He’s now 23 but was diagnosed with Asperger’s as a child.

we call his episodes Red Mist. For when it descends there is nothing that can be done and it has to play out. It lasted for hours sometimes until he burnt himself out emotionally. Often leaving him crying himself to sleep. He was always very apologetic to me afterwards and couldn’t remember everything he said in the heat of this rage.

We - with therapists - looked at the causes and identifiers of just before he goes overboard into the emotions and what he can do himself and what those around him can do.

the main thing I can do is leave him alone when it happens. No amount of love, interference or distraction will work. It will likely inflame and prolong the situation. At school he had a card to leave a situation and be able to go and sit in a quiet room undisturbed so he could calm down.

with the therapist he identified the stages he goes through. He realised at what point he couldn’t just walk away (so he knew at what stage he had to leave a situation), the triggers were what he perceived to be unjust situations, bullying/mocking etc. for bullying/unkind words he was given a technique to imagine the people upsetting him had comedy nodding baby heads - like the nodding dogs (That was his decision as a child of 9) which helped to a certain extent and he stopped flying off the handle at every little comment.

He’s got therapy since. He is more in touch with his emotions and works through them internally better. He still has the occasional session of banging on his desk or slamming something in his room but it’s nothing like it was.

he has had since he was 7 mental health issues and depression so is constantly on a low level antidepressant. We have had a few suicide attempts when he was younger.

I really feel therapy and CBT particularly has helped him and I’m curious as to why there is no mention of this for your daughter unless I missed it?

however OP I would be very angry with the dismissive nature of the GP. Your DD needs help, tests running to see if this is hormone related etc. She is becoming a danger to herself and others if she can’t manage this and could severely injure someone one day.

Is she sorry for the outbursts afterwards? Did she apologise for striking you or Dp?

I can’t say if the flight cancellation is fair but I’d think of her outbursts as mental health issues. Not something she does on purpose because she’s a bad person (she isn’t - she needs help and to help herself).

Personally I wouldn’t cancel someone’s lifeline to something that meant so much to them but I’d add in a proviso that they get it if the agree to attend CBT or similar.

Your DD isn't just 'volatile', OP. She is violently abusive. She's an adult who has vicious tantrums like a toddler. That isn't normal or acceptable.

Your DH is absolutely right not to pay for her flights to Mexico. She is a grown woman who physically attacked her father. I also don't blame him for slapping her in those circumstances; I'd call that self-defence.

I suspect your DD needs proper psychiatric treatment. This isn't just 'learned behaviour', it's way beyond that.

I haven’t read all the thread so not sure if this has been mentioned-do you think she might be autistic? Sounds like she has emotional disregulation if she can hold it together at uni with people who she doesn’t really know but can ‘be herself’ with family and bf. Wait list for cbt on nhs is at least 2 years - I would pay for it privately now and get her to the doctor for prescription of anti depressants.

regarding the assault I agree there should be a consequence but not taking away the flight. It will ruin the atmosphere at Xmas.

You Can’t undo the damage done by emotional abuse in a quick way and I think she will spiral or get depressed if you punish her BEFORE getting help.

You say it is to do with DNA and upbringing but you say your other kids are fine ?
So I would say it is not to do with that. Your DH is right - don't pay for the flight to Mexico - I wouldn't advice him to stop the uni allowance though as she obviously needs this to complete her course - otherwise he will be stuck with her at home if she drops out.
This is something she really wants, to go to Mexico so not giving her the money is the best thing ever to give her the message to control her temper. You need to be strong and stand with your husband - never mind therapies, this is the best therapy ever for her. Your husband is 100% right on this - you need to explore your own reaction and feelings why are you conflicted ?
This is the best 'treatment' ever for her - also she sounds very disrespectful of your home - she has come home and immediately disrespect the fact that her dad is wfh - by shouting while he is doing work calls - if she has gone to her boyfriends then he is welcome to her.

I don’t think it’s fair on her bf or his family that she’s goes away with them.
What if she has a violent outburst abroad and attack’s someone else….the consequences could be huge.
DH is right not to pay and I think he handled the situation as best as anyone could but I do think that you sound very passive OP and are very good at making excuses for her frankly dreadful behaviour. Absolutely advocate for her but just because she holds down a job and studies hard does not make any of this ok.

She can control her violence in the outside world. She is probably a dv perpetrator .

Sorry to be harsh, but your dd sounds like a bitch.

I think your DH is right not to want to pay for her flight tickets.

If she wants to go, she can buy her own flights with her own money/student loan, and if this means she has to scrimp and save next year or work more hours, then so be it.

Please back your DH, your dd is at a crossroads and she needs to learn that she is an adult and that there are consequences for vile and violent behaviour. I don’t blame your DH for slapping her one bit, it was self defence in the face of extreme provocation.

The fact that dd is aghast he hit her is a grim joke, she is a spoilt bitch.