Torn between DH and DD

[MarmiteMakesMeHappy]

I am feeling sick and conflicted. Advice would be much appreciated. It's long because I need to get it down.

CONTEXT
DD is 18 and at Uni.

She has been invited to Mexico with her BF (of two years) and family over Easter. She has to pay flights and spending but food and accom is covered. She is beside herself with excitement and they have been planning for months. She has found leaving home/starting Uni really hard - and has had a few really tough years emotionally - this trip means everything to her.

She has two jobs - one where we live which she does out of term time and one in her Uni city. She works really hard and is working hard at her studies.

For Christmas DH was going to cover the cost of the flight so that her savings were all spending money. That was her present - apart from a couple of tiny things - that's it. He has talked this through with her and she was thrilled.

DD and DH have a very volatile relationship. Both really hot headed and both do and say things that cross lines. DH has worked really hard in the last few years to be more emotionally intelligent in his reactions and is much less explosive than he used to be. The shouting outbursts are now only after a great deal of provocation and he is far more measured. I will caveat this by saying he wasn't always and certainly some of DDs rage is learned behaviour. DS and DD2 are not like this though. Separately to this, DD has also what i would consider real lows - possibly depression. She has self harmed in the past.

We have all (including DD) wondered if there is something going on with DD's inability to regulate her rage. As I mention - some may be learned behaviour, but her rage is far in excess of anything she has seen in DH and far in excess of anything remotely proportional to situations. She will scream, smash stuff, lash out physically, block doorways saying the most disgusting and hurtful things she can and saying things like "hit me then so I can call the police" (noone is going to be hitting her). This can go on for hours. We have talked as a family, tried going through school, were on wait lists for CAHMS (now too old) and she has spoken to a GP who could only offer her low level anti-Ds as wait lists for accessing any talking therapies were insane (she is on wait lists). She is awaiting blood tests for possible PCOS which I understand can affect mood - just thought I'd mention that too. I paid for a few private therapy sessions but she didn't think they were helping, she has tried doing books on CBT to get a grip on her rage, but one tiny trigger - her BF not wanting to come round one evening/someone commenting on her clothes - can unleash a whirlwind of anger which is directed mostly at DH and I. Really spiteful, awful things and occasionally, physical shoving. On a few occasions she has hit DH.

At other times she is wonderful. Hard working/kind/funny/affectionate/self-deprecation etc etc. It's completely unpredictable.

SITUATION
She has been home from Uni for a few days - it's been really calm and lovely. The day before yesterday, she had an argument with her BF. It was on the phone and loud and DH asked her to keep it down as he was on a work call. She didn't moderate and was screaming and calling BF names. At the end of the call DH knocked and went to see if she was ok and she shoved the door shut in his face. He tried again later (a bit annoying when you want to be left but well intentioned) and she was vile to him. This escalated into a massive row and she stormed out.

They avoided each other that evening and yesterday morning she went upstairs to our bedroom. I was downstairs so don't know exactly how the row played out but before long they were screaming and yelling and I know she must have been pretty awful for DH to lose his shit with her.

They came downstairs and she was blocking the door when he had to make a work call demanding that he 'retract' something he had said (about her BF - but fairly innocuous). He refused to retract and told her he would not be dictated to. She started saying really nasty things to get a rise out of him and eventually he (verbally) lashed out at her and she got in his face and started poking him really hard in the chest. Both yelling. Me and siblings asking then to stop but if felt like a volcano finally erupting. She started hitting, kicking and scratching him and so I tried to get between them and she smacked me in the head. DH then held her (hard) to restrain her - she kicked him in the balls and DH lost it and slapped her across the shoulder and face (flat hand if that matters).

It was all horrific.

He told her to leave and she went to her boyfriends house.

He has now said she is not going to Mexico and that if she tries to pay for it herself, he will stop paying her Uni allowance (which she needs to bridge her rent costs) so she can't do afford to pay both.

Even though I feel we have reached a crossroads and something needs to happen, I think taking her one beacon of hope away, might not be the right thing. DH says it's exactly the thing she needs - consequences that hurt.

I don't know if my reluctance is because I know it will ruin Christmas. She has no presents, she will be distraught, the atmosphere will be awful for everyone - especially siblings and it will also ruin her boyfriend's christmas. Or if I just don't think taking away this one thing is too unkind. I also feel that her behaviour stems from more than just being 'horrible' - and if there is something going on, should we be punishing her? DH agrees that there may well be something going on, but that she is manipulative and spiteful at times and that no matter what, being physical is crossing a line (as are some of the horrendous things she said that I can't even bring myself to write).

DH is actually more heartbroken than angry (but also angry) and is standing firm - no trip. And I just don't know how I feel. I don't know whether to go into battle for her or stand with him. It's making me feel sick. I can't bring myself to wrap anything or do anything because I am so sure Christmas is ruined. And of course, on top of that - and more importantly - we have a real problem to resolve as a family which just feels overwhelming and insurmountable. I don't know how I feel about DH slapping her either.

My head is a mess and I can't stop crying. The big picture is how we move forward with and for DD and as a family, but i feel like if at least I could get Christmas clear in my mind, I could face the bigger and more important issues.

Advice please.

Don’t pay for flights but she is 18. I think he is ‘passing it down’ by reacting in a punishment way rather than fighting to get her the diagnosis and support she needs. He had his issues and did you punish him? No.

No advice to add, but it's a horrible situation for you all, Op, including the BF.

Going a little counter to a lot of what's on this thread I'd say that your DD is an adult now and responsible for her own actions. Without reference to the past. Her behaviour is violent and there is no excuse for violence once you are an adult.

The holiday contribution was not based on "good behaviour" and I think it would be dishonourable to cancel your contribution. It becomes tit for tat, and also you are involving yourself in her treatment ongoing, which is actually her responsiibility now.

I would tell her that she has crossed a line, that her behaviour is frightening, she clearly has a massive problem -- and that as she is an adult you will not be engaging any further with her outbursts. After this Christmas break, to which you are committed now, you will need her to make alternative arrangements for any university holidays as you cannot have her being violent in the home. She will only be able to stay with you in the future if there is evidence that she is taking action to treat herself. "Having no control" is not acceptable in an adult, and she will find that other adults won't stand for it and will call the police, as will you if it happens over Christmas.

Say you are going to continue with the contribution because it predates this, and you will be punishing others if you don't enable her to go. Also, the contribution shows that you have faith in her, and her progress, and you still do, but she needs to understand that everything has now changed.

I would not discuss her control difficulties with her any more than you would an abusive man. It's no longer your problem. She is 18. And also -- mental health issues need mental health professionals to solve them. Keep your position as her mum. You love her, but not this dark force that is inhabiting her and you must protect your other children.

It is possible that whatever is going on, she masks at work and then it comes out even worse in her safe environment too.

You are clearly enabling her bad behaviour.

If the roles were reversed and you wanted to stop her travel plans, how would you feel if your DH said to you that he doesnt agree with your approach?

Your sense and loyalties are clearly messed up.

I would be worried about DD's safety in Mexico, what if she has a violent outburst in Mexico and someone calls the police, she could get arrested and find herself in a Mexican prison cell. She may not get released after 24 hours with a caution like she would in the UK.

Your DD needs professional help before she finds herself in serious trouble.

At 18 you can't stop her going to Mexico but you shouldn't be paying for her to go, she needs to pay for it herself.

I agree with your DH, however difficult it is for you and however difficult the atmosphere at Christmas ... he can't possibly pay for a trip like that after she attacked him! What does that tell her!

She needs some serious help.

If some posters think DD is autistic is it possible DH is too?

I wouldn’t want to the bf, do you think the trip will still go ahead with her

What a tough situation. She obviously struggles to regulate her feelings and blows up. I wouldn’t be surprised if by Easter she’s not with her BF if she keeps screaming and shouting at him down the phone, he shouldn’t have to put up with that and he probably won’t. Maybe encourage her to talk to her GP or use the money for therapy rather than a plane ticket? She needs to learn to control her temper.

My concern like others is her bf.

She's heading for custody for domestic abuse if she continues. She's learnt she can be violent to her dad, she already blows at bf.

I agree with PP that it sounds like EUPD/BPD.
I had "quiet" BPD so not similar to your daughter in many ways, but self harmed, had extreme emotional reactions- mine were just usually directed at myself.
I highly recommend DBT, your daughter needs help. There are also support groups for families of people with BPD and courses family can do. It does sound like your husbands actions have had profound impact on her mental health, relationships and everything. I'm not sure what to say about the holiday situation but your daughter does need serious help and I think DBT would really help her- and you all. Mind Reframed is a private practise I regard very highly.

Make the flights conditional on them both attending sessions of family therapy until they are both relating warmly again.

I agree.

I would also be concerned about what happens if she has a big row with him and his family while abroad- Mexico isn't a safe place to be a young distressed woman alone

Agree with this. Keeping her at home will just escalate things, and your other DCs (and you) deserve a stress free Christmas.

Your DDs behaviour definitely needs to be addressed, it is very extreme and the fact that she is a young woman, and may have inherited this tendency from her father, is not a reasonable excuse. You will need to address this with her when she returns and everyone is a bit calmer, before she does someone or herself real harm.

Could be autism, could be ADHD, could be EUPD, could be trauma. It's definitely something, as this is quite extreme behaviour. Can I ask why she hasn't been referred for assessments a long time ago? I don't agree that DH should stop her going to Mexico if she pays herself but I 100% agree he shouldn't be paying for her ticket. I'm not sure what the resolution for her Christmas gift should be.

Your DD is abusive OP, that’s the bottom line really. At the point she has laid hands on both you and your husband, it’s time to face that reality.

I’d agree with your husband 100% in not paying for the flights and would probably also agree with him saying he will no longer pay the top ups to support her. Those are both privileges, and someone who is physically violent to both parents doesn’t deserve that (for me). What does she learn if she still goes? That actions have no consequences!

You need to back your husband here. DD is an adult. Actions have consequences, and she is lucky that this time it was her dad she was violent towards because if it continues then next time it could another man who would react much, much, worse.

And I completely agree with other posters, DD being so shocked he slapped her is a bit of a joke. Unless she’s been raised to believe she can do whatever she wants and treat people however she wants without consequence- which from your posts it sounds like she might have been considering you’re still considering facilitating her trip.

I think you have to separate the physical violence from the rest of it. That’s crossing the line and a step too far. She can’t be allowed to continue that so therapy it must be.

EDMR would be perfect for her. It will go into her childhood trauma and reset her. It really works. Even the NHS website says they don’t know why it works but acknowledges that it does. It’s expensive privately so that would probably take up the uni subsidising money, as well as her Xmas gift, so dh gets his wish inadvertently because you can justify cutting down on that as well, to pay to get her the help she needs. It’s better framing it that way rather than using it as a punishment as such.

Oh OP, this is awful for you.
You said DH learned to control his outbursts - how did he do it ? I guess DD isn't likely to listen to his advice, but you could pass it on to her as if its coming just from you?
I think DH is right not to pay for the trip, he can't not do anything in response to her assaulting him like that. Also, you must have concerns now as to whether DD can cope for the holiday without an outburst ?
How are your other DC? And how is DD's BF - is he safe from these outbursts?

This exactly and if this was about a son rather than a daughter I think there'd be fewer attempts to minimise the daughter's behaviour and make excuses for it. This whole thing kicked off because she was screaming so loudly and calling her BF names that it disturbed someone in another room with the door shut?

I'd be concerned that there was another incident in Mexico and she got arrested or the family see her true colours and throw her out of the accommodation?! On the other hand maybe the boyfriend will see the light and dump her so the whole Mexico thing becomes a moot point.

This behaviour is very similar to a close female relative of mine who is diagnosed with autism. She's truly awful to her DF and BF, but completely different with her friends and at college.

Lots of very good points about whether his family would even want her on the holiday and the risk of her kicking off and being asked to leave by the family or getting in trouble with the police there. I would personally sit down with your daughter and explain you have serious concerns about her going because she cannot manage her behaviour and you worry about her losing her relationship with her partner and by extension his family, or getting in trouble with the police there or being stranded in Mexico when the family ask her to leave. Tell her for that reason you’re not committing to paying for the flight at this time but will review whether you will in 6 - 8 weeks time. That way it’s not off the cards and is a motivator for change. If you see a sudden change in her and she can manage herself it’s then very clear that she has more control over her behaviour than she might have you believe. If she can’t that gives you more evidence that there are deeper issues that need targeted intervention.

It's not necessarily something. My sister is like OP's dd. She have no additional needs, she's just an angry bitch. My childhood was blighted by her until my 20s. We are blissfully NC now.

I would aim that you both sit down with her and say that this is it, her behaviour is entirely out of control and she can no longer come home if she behaves like this.

She needs to engage with a therapy / anger management service (find someone experienced with adolescents, not some generalist used to dealing with Middle Aged people who are a bit lost).

If she behaves herself, attends sessions and shows she wants to improve then I would pay for the ticket (decision to be taken in March). I understand your DH’s perspective, but I think making the ticket a condition will help everyone have something to move towards. Some family therapy sessions may be useful later, but she probably needs to do some individual work first.

She has clearly learned some of this from him, but has some issues of her own too. She is young, but not young enough to excuse this.

To those saying DH is right. Do you believe that he is right in stopping her going full stop. Or just paying?

OP you can’t have it both ways, either she can control her outbursts or she can’t & if she can’t, Mexico is the last place she needs to be.

You say her boyfriend has already been on the receiving end of her outbursts so what do think will happen if she gets physical with him or his family out in Mexico? They’re providing the accommodation so what will happen if they decide to throw her out? What if they call the police & she ends up banged up abroad? They don’t have the same attachment to her as you do & will be well within their rights to do either of these things if she turns physically violent.

If she’s an adult & can make her own decision to go then she’s also adult enough to deal with the consequences such as potentially being stranded in Mexico.

It’s also very irresponsible of you to be supporting her going while knowing she can’t control herself, especially if you’re expecting her boyfriend and his family to still owe her any goodwill / duty of care after such an outburst.

So he’s a history of aggression that took him well into adult to address and he can’t see that he’s staring in the face of what he created?

He should apologise. Apologise for letting her down growing up. For exposing her to aggression and normalising that behaviour. And he should ask her how he can help.