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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Casual sex - why does it make me feel shit?

209 replies

WitheringTights000 · 07/05/2023 22:48

Hi all,

Just some Sunday evening musings as I am not out and working tomo!

I very much consider myself open minded and I believe strongly in human and women's rights....I don't at all think women in general have casual sex is a bad thing/they should be looked upon any differently a man having casual sex?

So why does it make ME feel awful? I've been out of the dating game a long time/haven't had sex due to health issues, but the few times I have had casual, it has made me feel terrible! Used and gross, when I know I shouldn't feel like that as it is not 'wrong' or 'dirty' or whatever!

Just wondering if anyone else feels like this about casual? And trying to figure out why it is I feel like that?

Am I too uptight?

Why does something normal make me feel so horrible?

Interested to hear perspectives!

OP posts:
Sailingaround · 09/05/2023 10:22

What really annoys me about OLD is how men use it as free prostitution. When I was on Match I specifically listed no FWB, and yet I still had some men ask if I wanted to be a FWB. Disgusting.

Even when I was younger the only way I’d ever consider a FWB is if it actually was a genuine friend I was sexually attracted to or maybe an ex. In both cases I’d still expect to be taken out and have good conversation and pleasant texts etc. I still didn’t like it after a while but at least there was some connection there.

Anything else and it’s just a FB and no way am I signing up for that. You are not weird for feeling used afterwards, believe it or not some men even feel the same and of course many women do as well. Agree with others in that the normalisation of casual sex on the whole doesn’t benefit women.

The scary thing is so many people don’t even use condoms properly hence why many women get pregnant in these type of situations which is ridiculous. Not to mention STDs.

Falt · 09/05/2023 10:34

I read (well, listened to) this recently and feel like it perfectly summed up what I've been thinking for quite some time.

The older I get the more I feel like I was conned. Not that I judge people who can and do enjoy it, but I wish someone had told me what I know now when I was younger.

The Case Against the Sexual Revolution: A New Guide to Sex in the 21st Century https://amzn.eu/d/1Xbdchv

Ditching the stuffy hang-ups and benighted sexual traditionalism of the past is an unambiguously positive thing. The sexual revolution has liberated us to enjoy a heady mixture of erotic freedom and personal autonomy. Right?
Wrong, argues Louise Perry in her provocative new book. Although it would be neither possible nor desirable to turn the clock back to a world of pre-60s sexual mores, she argues that the amoral libertinism and callous disenchantment of liberal feminism and our contemporary hypersexualised culture represent more loss than gain. The main winners from a world of rough sex, hook-up culture and ubiquitous porn – where anything goes and only consent matters – are a tiny minority of high-status men, not the women forced to accommodate the excesses of male lust. While dispensing sage advice to the generations paying the price for these excesses, she makes a passionate case for a new sexual culture built around dignity, virtue and restraint.

MumLass · 09/05/2023 13:22

Falt · 09/05/2023 10:34

I read (well, listened to) this recently and feel like it perfectly summed up what I've been thinking for quite some time.

The older I get the more I feel like I was conned. Not that I judge people who can and do enjoy it, but I wish someone had told me what I know now when I was younger.

The Case Against the Sexual Revolution: A New Guide to Sex in the 21st Century https://amzn.eu/d/1Xbdchv

Ditching the stuffy hang-ups and benighted sexual traditionalism of the past is an unambiguously positive thing. The sexual revolution has liberated us to enjoy a heady mixture of erotic freedom and personal autonomy. Right?
Wrong, argues Louise Perry in her provocative new book. Although it would be neither possible nor desirable to turn the clock back to a world of pre-60s sexual mores, she argues that the amoral libertinism and callous disenchantment of liberal feminism and our contemporary hypersexualised culture represent more loss than gain. The main winners from a world of rough sex, hook-up culture and ubiquitous porn – where anything goes and only consent matters – are a tiny minority of high-status men, not the women forced to accommodate the excesses of male lust. While dispensing sage advice to the generations paying the price for these excesses, she makes a passionate case for a new sexual culture built around dignity, virtue and restraint.

Thanks for this book tip, I've just ordered it. I'm fairly recently single and struggling to figure out what I want after a coercive 'open' relationship. My ex was emotionally abusive, narcissistic and a sex addict. I went along with things because of my own insecurities and issues. I crave a loving, respectful and loyal relationship. Like you OP, casual sex would not be for me and I would feel the same as you I think.

WitheringTights000 · 09/05/2023 13:51

Reading all of your responses is making me feel much better.

Tbh I think I've been given a really hard time on this thread by some posters.

I was told last night that my language is 'too hateful'

And also told I judge women who enjoy casual sex....neither of those things are true.

OP posts:
GarlicGrace · 09/05/2023 14:06

Louise Perry makes me feel like I'm getting a rash.

I agree with this part:
the amoral libertinism and callous disenchantment of liberal feminism and our contemporary hypersexualised culture represent more loss than gain.

And most of this:
The main winners from a world of rough sex, hook-up culture and ubiquitous porn – where anything goes and only consent matters – are ... men,

But where's she getting forced from?
not the women forced to accommodate the excesses of male lust.

Her observations of changes in our cultural environment are correct: the increasingly gross, misogynistic and illegal activities marketed as 'sex' and freely available to a mass market that includes children & young adults; the shocking re-interpretation of 'rough sex' to mean life-threatening, which has already led to the acquittal of murderers; so-called liberal feminism's eagerness to sacrifice women to an illusion of consent.

Perry then goes on to conflate all this with sexual amorality, painting women as dozy victims who are repeatedly forced to endure rape & sexual coercion by amoral men who've been brainwashed into becoming sexual abusers.

If we're talking about schoolchildren and school leavers, she's got a point but that point is not about morals. It's about useless sex education and incompetent authorities failing to regulate online porn. Perry's plugging a religious approach (Christianity in her case, but they're all the same). That morality means girls withhold sex as a reward for commitment, and boys are desperate to get their ends away but can't because of respect for the gatekeeping.

There is no evidence that two virgins will make a better marriage than an experienced couple. And that isn't morality - good morals mean you won't willingly harm another person. Young people of both sexes are horrified and visibly upset when they're told that what they see in porn is unrealistic and harmful.

They need to be told they all - girls and boys - deserve joyful, safe, shared sex with partners they have chosen. They need to be told the choice is mutual; that they are equally entitled to pleasure; that this comes with mutual respect. They probably need to be shown what this looks like.

They don't need a dishonest trade of sex for a gold ring. They don't need to believe a woman's value is between her legs, that unmarried sex is dirty, or that sexual abuse doesn't matter if the girl sleeps around. In pursuit of her religious message, this is what Perry implies.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 09/05/2023 14:10

I’m totally in religious. Atheist in fact. Absolute non believer.

Its not about her religion. That’s just a convenient hook to hang it on. I agree with her. It needs saying.

The sexual revolution has reduced equality between men and women. Dating and sex has become a male playtime.

GarlicGrace · 09/05/2023 14:11

MumLass · 09/05/2023 13:22

Thanks for this book tip, I've just ordered it. I'm fairly recently single and struggling to figure out what I want after a coercive 'open' relationship. My ex was emotionally abusive, narcissistic and a sex addict. I went along with things because of my own insecurities and issues. I crave a loving, respectful and loyal relationship. Like you OP, casual sex would not be for me and I would feel the same as you I think.

I'm really sorry you went through that Flowers I'd say you're quite right to lay off from sexual relationships for a while. Somebody like that can wreck your self-worth and leave you deeply unsure of who you are, let alone what you want.

I really hope you find enough of the right support for you. If you can afford therapy, I recommend it - and strongly advise doing The Freedom Programme, which is only a few quid. Wishing you well.

The Freedom Programme. Learn about domestic violence and abuse

The Freedom Programme. For women who want to learn more about the reality of domestic violence and abuse

https://www.freedomprogramme.co.uk/

WitheringTights000 · 09/05/2023 14:14

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow - I am also an atheist.

@GarlicGrace - as you can see most women on this thread agree with me. I think you have given me a really hard time over it.

This article sums it all up perfectly and how most of us feel:

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11162235/amp/Tinder-toxic-young-women-swipe-right-apps-promise-sexual-liberation-working-men.html

OP posts:
porridgeisbae · 09/05/2023 14:24

There is no evidence that two virgins will make a better marriage than an experienced couple

Not in and of itself, but presumably this couple will be religious, that's why they've waited. Marriages where the couple are genuinely deeply religious do tend to last longer, as they can have a different attitude to marriage than secular couples, divorce is really frowned upon etc.

not the women forced to accommodate the excesses of male lust.

painting women as dozy victims who are repeatedly forced to endure rape & sexual coercion by amoral men who've been brainwashed into becoming sexual abusers.

We're forced to accomodate it in the sense that it's in the world we live in. Of course rape and sexual coercion are things you're forced to endure, no one's going to volunteer for them.

Porn does have an effect but of course

jsku · 09/05/2023 14:26

I just noticed this post from yesterday.
Do you realise what you are saying here?
Essentially you view sex as a currency you trade.

So many things wrong with it.

‘ but why should someone women take the risk and have sex for nothing in return?
That's the way many still think? Getting naked with someone is very intimate so I expect a bit of commitment/security on return....
So what...’

porridgeisbae · 09/05/2023 14:27

@MumLass Like the PP, I would recommend The Freedom Programme to any woman who's put up with any nasty behaviour from men. You can do it online for £12 or something, but speaking for myself, I don't think I would've absorbed the information as fully that way.

It's free to attend in person/sometimes on Zoom. You can find your nearest group via the website a PP linked to above.

MumLass · 09/05/2023 14:28

GarlicGrace · 09/05/2023 14:11

I'm really sorry you went through that Flowers I'd say you're quite right to lay off from sexual relationships for a while. Somebody like that can wreck your self-worth and leave you deeply unsure of who you are, let alone what you want.

I really hope you find enough of the right support for you. If you can afford therapy, I recommend it - and strongly advise doing The Freedom Programme, which is only a few quid. Wishing you well.

Thank you, I have signed up to the freedom programme. I'm steering clear of any men for a long time! I'm having counselling too.

GarlicGrace · 09/05/2023 14:29

I don't think I have given you a hard time, OP. I questioned what seems to be some doublethink, and I wasn't the only person to. You began by saying you wanted to examine your feelings.

Fair enough, you've have decided you don't want casual sex - but you'd already decided that when you started your thread. No-one at all has tried to invalidate that choice, in fact we've all supported it. It's an intrinsic part of the right to choose.

I'm saying choice can mean a lot of things. We're all agreed on some things that are not valid choices, even though they're touted by some fools and some cynics as such. There's a whole range of possible happy choices, though, and (obviously) I'm keen to elaborate on the ways those can work.

I'm an old-skool feminist. Female independence and freedom to choose with full agency are very important to me. Under a current battering from pornification, queerification and, at the other end, oppressive 'moralities', it feels very necessary to discuss what true freedom for women actually looks like. I hope you can respect that as everyone here has respected your position.

WitheringTights000 · 09/05/2023 14:59

@GarlicGrace - I think you have given me a bit of a hard time. You have told me that I am judging other women for casual sex but I don't at all, never have done and never will.

There are many other posters on this thread who feel the same as me, yet you haven't told them they are judgemental.

I have also been called a pearl clutcher on this thread, so not everyone has respected my position

OP posts:
PortUmber · 09/05/2023 16:32

@WitheringTights000

I will get slated for this, but I think the whole act involves a woman ‘receiving’ and a man ‘expelling’. We - by nature - internalise it, not just the fluidy stuff, but I think the emotions as well. For a man it’s more a release - and then it’s done and move on.

I’m generalising here, and of course not everyone is like this. But I think there is a tendency towards this type of behaviour in women/men.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 09/05/2023 16:36

jsku · 09/05/2023 14:26

I just noticed this post from yesterday.
Do you realise what you are saying here?
Essentially you view sex as a currency you trade.

So many things wrong with it.

‘ but why should someone women take the risk and have sex for nothing in return?
That's the way many still think? Getting naked with someone is very intimate so I expect a bit of commitment/security on return....
So what...’

I agree with her. Some people are more able to have sex freely and some see it as part of an intimate relationship.

For some people having sex with someone is a big deal, and they want it as part of a committed relationship where they feel safe.

’So what’ if some people feel like you? Doesn’t make it right.

electricmoccasins · 09/05/2023 16:47

PortUmber · 09/05/2023 16:32

@WitheringTights000

I will get slated for this, but I think the whole act involves a woman ‘receiving’ and a man ‘expelling’. We - by nature - internalise it, not just the fluidy stuff, but I think the emotions as well. For a man it’s more a release - and then it’s done and move on.

I’m generalising here, and of course not everyone is like this. But I think there is a tendency towards this type of behaviour in women/men.

No slating from me - I agree with you.

jsku · 09/05/2023 17:09

@WitheringTights000
@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

You both do realise that if you are insisting that sex can only be exchanged for something from men - it’s a version of prostitution.
Just with different payment method.

It’s one thing to say you don’t enjoy casual sex and prefer to be in a relationship.
But to say - why have sex for nothing in return - makes it a transaction.
If this is how you actually view the world - it’s really sad.

WitheringTights000 · 09/05/2023 17:15

@jsku - I think what's really sad is men treating women like free prostitutes on OLD...I have read many women say that's how they have been made to feel.

The lack of respect max treating someone like a commodity is very sad indeed.

OP posts:
WitheringTights000 · 09/05/2023 17:21

*and treating someone like a commodity

OP posts:
OfcourseitsaNC · 09/05/2023 17:30

WitheringTights000 · 09/05/2023 17:15

@jsku - I think what's really sad is men treating women like free prostitutes on OLD...I have read many women say that's how they have been made to feel.

The lack of respect max treating someone like a commodity is very sad indeed.

Then you block and move on.

I wouldn't ever let a stranger on OLD make me feel anything.

I'm in charge of me and my feelings. I choose not to let sad people in their sad world have an effect.

OLD is a dangerous place for those who would let a stranger have such an impact on their emotions.

AngryGreasedSantaCatcus · 09/05/2023 17:37

This thread made me think quite a bit about my youth as well.

Turns out I was for a while the scummy, possibly lying , using men as a crusty vibrator type.Grin

Ignoring the ONSs and FWB situations, I had a string of one month "relationships " and sex. Technically I was looking for a relationship but they weren't what I was looking for. Ironically I went off them mostly after sex, then fizzled out, then next. I did all the dumping and quite a few guys were hurt, some were upset, some even cried.

However I doubt anyone would dare tell me that I owed those men something, or that I had to stay in a relationship I didn't want just because I said I did want a relationship.

Outdamnspot23 · 09/05/2023 17:38

I haven't read every single post on the thread but OP leaving aside whether you want casual sex (no you don't), the next question is "how can I find a partner in this environment where a lot of men seem to want casual sex only?"

Can I offer a couple of suggestions?

  1. If you're doing online dating - SAY THIS on your profile: "nothing casual" or "looking for a relationship", etc, be open. This will draw the attention of men who want something similar, and obviously they exist. (Yes some people may lie but at least you've then proven them wronguns from the start.)

  2. Fake very high self esteem by which I mean don't take basic level slop from men because you fancy them or want a boyfriend. Picture yourself as Beyonce or the Queen of Sheba or the powerful woman of your choice. Would she meet up at someone's house? No she'd expect to go on dates? Would she accept avoidant, wishy washy behaviour from potential boyfriends? No, she'd expect them to make it perfectly clear that she's wonderful and they want to be with her. Most obvious of all, don't accept "fuckboy" behaviour from men - I've literally never heard of a guy going from sending really overt sexual jokes or innuendo or dick pics to being a decent boyfriend. They're two different types of people.

  3. Realise that sleeping with someone who doesn't want to be in a relationship with you WON'T magically make them want to be in a relationship with you. I'm ashamed to say in the past I've been on the other side of that, having a casual relationship with a man who I knew wanted to be with me. It didn't work for him either. So if you meet someone who seems nice and then they drop the casual card, just tell them outright - that's not going to work for me, nice knowing you, bye.

jsku · 09/05/2023 17:45

@WitheringTights000

But if you view sex as a transaction, a currency to be traded - why would you expect men (the buyer) see it as any different?
Respect needs to go both ways.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 09/05/2023 17:54

jsku · 09/05/2023 17:45

@WitheringTights000

But if you view sex as a transaction, a currency to be traded - why would you expect men (the buyer) see it as any different?
Respect needs to go both ways.

It isn’t about that.

Men abuse their sexual power. Look to
pprn, choking and OLD.

Why should that be ‘respected?’
Do women on the whole behave like that?