The perils of a partly open relationship...

[OblongCircles]

We are a married couple, both late thirties. Got together in our late teens.

My wife has always liked women as well as men, played around with some women before we were together, but never had a serious relationship other than me.

We've got a pretty good sex life. She's a bit into kink and roleplay, which I'm not, but I think we are both happy with it.

But (there was always going to be a but!)...

She would like permission to play around with women. Not to have a relationship or anything - just physical stuff.

I'm not super-keen on her doing this - it maybe selfish of me, but I'd rather have her to myself. Still, I don't think I would feel too threatened, or replaced, as long as she wasn't sleeping with other guys.

It also feels a bit one-sided. She said that she's happy for me to explore with men, but I'm straight, so don't want to! She says that she as she will only be seeing women outside our relationship (not men), that it would be wrong for me to see other women.

I don't know whether to:

(a) say no to the whole thing
(b) say okay, but insist that its open on my side to sleep with women
(c) open it up on her side only.

Has anyone been through this kind of thing?

Thanks!

It works for you and your partner because the same rules apply for both of you. This is a totally different situation. His partner wants to be able to explore her sexuality, male or female doesn't really matter, yet forbids the op to do the same. You are right, he sounds like a brilliant partner, she doesn't.

No.

I wouldn't let her do it.

My DH only belongs to me and I only belong to him.

Not every sexual fantasy has to become a reality.

I am jealous & possessive if the boundaries are about to be crossed.

So 100% NO from me. My DH is MINE and MINE ONLY.

As some up thread have said, this does also work with non-symmetric arrangements. @CosmoK described that. I have seen that with people I know. I think these conversations are important and shutting them straight down helps no-one, least of all OP.

If any partner I was with told me that they wanted to start exploring sex with others (their gender is irrelevant), it would be over. I didn't sign up to be in a relationship with a cheater and clearly we don't want the same things.

It's not like it's just bisexual people having to suppress their attraction to other people though is it? Everyone in a long term relationship ends up fancying or having a crush on someone who'd not their partner at some point. Either they have an affair or they ignore it because they're in a committed relationship with someone else.

Your wife is taking the piss. She doesn't need to have sex with a woman, she just thinks she can get away with it by playing the bisexual card. This isn't a bisexual thing, it's your wife testing the boundaries of your relationship and using her bisexuality to do it.

Both of you seem to be (inadvertently) downplaying sexual attraction to women/bisexuality's validity: she thinks it's somehow different to you having sex with other people, and you think it's not the same as her having sex with men.

While in theory you're both technically right - she would be experiencing something different that you can't offer, and she wouldn't be sleeping with another man - both of these things suggest that you'd see it as less... meaningful/real/I'm not sure of the word.

And a lot of women who have sex with other women dislike that characterisation - as a kind of 'it doesn't count'. It's frustrating on all sides: lesbian women are often frustrated by (some) bi women who treat sleeping with a lesbian as an experience, other bi women are therefore seen as less genuine about their intentions towards other women, and everyone (as a collective) continues to only center or give weight to sex between men and women which is bad for lots of reasons.

Not 100% directly relevant to your situation, but I think that thinking is what's clouding her perspective.

Her saying "the only reason she would like to have sex with women is because I don't have a female body and so can't satisfy her desire for female touch, whereas I can get everything I need from her." is her missing the point: what she's actually asked if she can sleep with another person outside of your relationship, and you aren't allowed to. If you said, "I'd like to try sleeping with someone with giant boobs/red hair/an interest in rope play because you don't have that and therefore can't satisfy my desire for it", would she be okay with it? I doubt it.

The sexes aren't actually that important. It's fine that you're not okay with her wanting to sleep with someone else, or at least only doing so unilaterally.

@fdgdfgdfgdfg Your wife is taking the piss. She doesn't need to have sex with a woman, she just thinks she can get away with it by playing the bisexual card. This isn't a bisexual thing, it's your wife testing the boundaries of your relationship and using her bisexuality to do it.

This is basically what I wanted to say, but more eloquently!

Just to add to be clear - it's not the wanting to open the relationship that makes me think OPs wife is taking the piss. There's nothing inherently wrong with an open relationship or even seeking to change the parameters of a closed relationship going forward.

It's the fact that she's only willing to open it to her benefit that irks me. The fact that she's using her bisexuality to guilt her partner into allowing it, while denying him the same latitude because he's not a special case like her.

Yep.

Just to step in to the defence of my wife, I genuinely don't think that she's trying to be conniving about using her bisexuality to manipulate the situation to her benefit. She is just not seeing what she wants to do with a same sex partner as equivalent to either of us having sex with an opposite-sex partner.

I actually think that @housemaus may have it bang on about how both me and my wife are viewing same-sex-sex as somehow "not really sex", and thus less threatening/not really breaching monogamy. That sounds really awful, and almost homophobic, when I put it like that. I don't know why either of us view it that way. As other posters have said, why should it make a difference?

Not sure what the right word is, but it's the subconscious absorption of those homophobic/misogynistic attitudes in society without really noticing them. It's pretty widespread - a lot of people do it, and a lot of people don't really see sex between women as mattering as much, or as something titillating and for the male gaze if anything. Like if it doesn't involve a penis, it's not real sex. But it is.

You got together as young teens. My guess is your relationship has run its course but she won't tell you that.

This.

She likes the security too much.

You would have excellent prospects with other non bisexual, non polygamous (one sided polygamy) women. You don't have to put up with this.

I really wouldn't worry about it. A lot of people do see same-sex intimacy that way. See also 'men who have sex with men' but define themselves as straight. Our 20th century definitions of lesbian/gay/bi/straight were just that ... 20th c. Throughout history, same sex intimacy has been viewed in many different ways. Most of the women I meet at sex clubs would not define themselves as lesbian, or even bi. Whilst I do eye roll a bit about 21st c definitions of sexuality, they do offer more blurring of definitions. So I know I am heteroromantic, for example. Your wife may be bi-curious.

www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/types-of-sexuality#types

This. It's really common.

As a bi person, it's an occupational hazard that your chosen partner in a monogamous marriage is going to not be one of those sexes you're also attracted to, but they also might not be into a particular kink or like sex in the morning or whatever. You know what you're agreeing to*.

(*I do have sympathy for people who don't realise they're bi until later in life because compulsory heterosexuality is a bitch and I think a supportive partner encouraging them to explore that in a defined setting like a Killing Kittens type party or swinging is actually really cool, BUT that requires everyone to be on board and genuinely into that, and shouldn't be a requirement)

I'm in an open relationship but we agreed to be non-monogamous when we met. I think it's much harder to open a marriage if you are fundamentally monogamous.

Firstly, it's not tit for tat, excuse the pun! Just because your wife might have sex with other people doesn't mean you have to. You're not keeping score, you both agree the boundaries of what is acceptable.

I think you both need to explore and educate yourselves before making any decisions. I would recommend joining the chat groups at Killing Kittens. It's not all group sex, swinging and parties. You'll get sensible, balanced advice from men and women who've been in similar situations. And they hold virtual workshops about ethical non-monogamy, jealousy, etc.

Nicely summed up. Doesn’t matter what your sexuality is (as if bisexuality has some unique status of not being fulfilled with one partner), if your significant other wants to be monogamous, and you don’t, the relationship is over.

Don’t be taken for a mug OP.

It’s been mentioned before but it’s worth repeating: This thread would look very different if it was a woman asking what she should do with her bisexual hubby who told her he fancied some cock.

It was said succinctly at the start. Piss take.
It would be a firm no from me.

@ArcticSkewer
Op doesn't see it that way and that's the important thing in their relationship, but I can see why she floated the idea, and why she sees him sleeping with women through a different lens. A lot of men would react differently to op.

I don't think she sees it through a different lens. I think she's manipulative trying to make out it's completely fair because it's also open for him (a straight man) to sleep with men.

People do change but it sounds like she's wanting to grow with you rather than apart from you.

No it doesn't. You are highly biased.

women are notorious for hating being with bi men!

Plenty would be ok with it but it's the thought that he might ask to sleep with men later in the relationship that turns them off the idea.

It seems to be common that bisexual people do ask to experiment or sleep with others later on.

I've seen bi people before who blame it on the culture of bisexual people who are in a committed relationship and then ask to sleep with others. Of course not all do, but a lot do so of course it's a worry.

So it's not as simple as saying women hate being with bi men, women know that there is a real risk and high chance he will want to experiment with men later on.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with people asking either if they feel that they need to explore and can't suppress it, but it IS a risk to the other person if they want a long term relationship with this person.

It's like if a person finds out someone was polyamorous or interested in that lifestyle, but they're monogamous. The person might say it's fine I would be happy to be with you and you alone, but later in the relationship there's a risk the person will want to be poly.

I think you're too trusting.
No one, NO ONE genuinely would think that offering to let their straight spouse experiment with men meant that it was all fair and equal.

Also what you feel now and how you feel afterwards could be different. Maybe it doesn't feel like that much of a threat now but afterwards it's completely different.

I don't know how many stories I've read about threesomes ruining relationships for example, someone lives out their dream they've thought about for years, they're 100% sure they'll be ok with it, and then sometimes it's only a few minutes into it and they see someone else touch their partner and they realise it's a massive mistake, or afterwards they can never see their partner/relationship the same way.

If you've been together twenty years I wonder if she's met a woman that she likes and wants to have sex with, and now wants your permission.

Men and women are different and so she's not wrong to feel she's missing out on one by only having the other. But as others have said, having sex with only one person (your spouse) inevitably means you're missing out on things they don't bring. It might not be a different body (male or female) but it sure as hell is a different body, a different aesthetic, different tastes, different chemistry. She really is either having you on or not fully thinking it out when she essentially asks you to restrict yourself to one partner but asking for more for herself.

Personally I'd bet that she's having a wobble, is interested in a particular woman and wants to have a fling with her. if that's the case then obviously letting her go for it is unlikely to save your marriage. I'm sorry OP but in your place I'd say no thanks - monogamy or nothing. Since that seems to be what you really want.

There's actually a lot of research into differing attitudes to bi men and women, including dating.

Summary is often that bi men are seen as secretly/mainly gay (hence women don't like dating them). Bi women are seen as hetero.
Probably all to do with the power of the penis. Eye roll

But again it's not as simple to say women are notorious for hating being with bi men and it's also not fair.

Opinions and beliefs are not created in a vacuum, plenty of gay men or mainly gay men do lie about their sexuality and trick and use women as a cover, and so it's gay mens deception which can unfortunately have an impact on how women view bisexuality.

If that fear or knowledge that that is something that does happen quite regularly wasn't there then more women would probably be open to dating bi men.
It's far more rare to hear stories about women being secretly lesbian and running off with her female lover when she gets older.
Now of course that can and does happen but it seems to be far more rare or at least far less visible.

And the differing attitudes isn't necessarily straightforward either.

I would think that straight women don't think bi women are heterosexual.

Many men might see them as being hetero. And from what I've seen many lesbians would consider bisexual women to be more hetero, but I think straight women are more likely to see bi women as they say they are, bisexual.....so it's not that different to how they see men...but they are asked the hypothetical question about men and then their fears come into it. They don't have the same fears about women because they wouldn't be in that position of dating them.

If a lesbian woman was asked would she date a bi woman she might say no because she'd fear she was mostly hetero, but if she heard a man was bisexual she wouldn't have the same fears and she probably wouldn't question the bisexuality label because it would never be an issue for her.

It's not really a double standard because a straight or lesbian person is only ever going to have to possibly face this circumstance with either a man, or a woman, not both.