April 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It’s April 2022 and the Stately Home is still open to all comers.

@DFOD Thankfully all 4 DC are well aware of what she is like, they saw the effects of her bullying of me when DF was alive (I told them everything after a particularly horrible series of verbal attacks.) and do not tolerate it. This does not particularly endear them to her, she dislikes anyone who stands up to her or who displays indifference to her moods and silent treatment which is one of the reasons she dislikes my DH.

I've been on this thread for a few years now. I haven't posted regularly for a while as everything seemed quite calm.

However I feel like I'm back where I was a few years ago and my mum is being a cow again.
I think it stems from me and my Dsis getting on well again. I didn't twig until I thought back to my mums behaviour over the past few months. My mum has been fine with me whilst me and Dsis weren't really talking much. Mum had been moaning about my Dsis to me, usually I stay out of it but I felt Dsis was being unkind.

Me and Dsis recently went out for a meal and have been getting on well. It seems my mum has been off with me since me and Dsis have been getting along well.

Is this a thing? My mum always has said please don't let me turn out like my DM but it seems like she is becoming her. My gran picks her children off against each other. Likes all her kids to run around after her. I feel like that's what my mum is doing.

My mum has been making constant digs at me when we speak. On fathers day she invited dsis and her family out for breakfast but didn't invite me. She said she thought I wouldn't be able to come but I pointed out how would she know if she didn't ask me.
She just has nothing nice to say to me. Makes me feel like rubbish and as I said I feel it stems from me and Dsis getting on well again.

Sorry that was a bit of a ramble

@Bombshell101 your Mother is using the classic narc 'divide and conquer' technique.

I have three siblings and but it was only once me and my younger sister went NC with our Mother that we could finally have a relationship with each other.

My Mother use to purposefully create strife my making up stuff we'd said behind backs.

I would go grey rock with you Mother - it's good she excluded you because spending time with her while she's being a bitch is pointless.

Ah @Sicario my situation is similar (ish)
My Narcissistic Mother died. Brother & v toxic SIL are behaving very badly.
They closed the account Mother had for my 2 kids ('pocket money').
Sent the cheque to the wrong address. Wants the postage to re-send it.
Yet is trying to sue the Hospital for my Mother's poor care (true enough)
Mother given the cheapest cremation despite saving the money for her Funeral.
Now SIL wants the ashes to create jewellery for her & her daughter.
My kids will be totally left out of the sale of the property in time.
Astonishingly petty but surprising how much it hurts still.

Hi All, I've been struggling with feeling angry towards my mother since having my DC (it's brought back a lot of difficult childhood memories plus I see her more now as she's obv Grandma to the kids). I don't know how to get past this as it's taking up far too much headspace and I'm sure my poor DH is sick of hearing me complain about it. Im also very conflicted as i do think DM loves me, but due to how she was brought up (apparently she had an abusive upbringing and is very outspoken about her hatred for her own mother who has now passed away) she seems completely incapable of normal social skills or relationships.

She only talks about herself and doesn't express any interest at all in anyone else. Especially if I'm seeking emotional support. If I say I'm tired, it will immediately be "oh I'm tired, in fact I'm exhausted because x y z..". If its something she can't compete with, eg when I was pregnant I was very sick, it will be "oh well I wasn't sick at all when I was pregnant in fact i was running marathons blah blah". If u continue to try and push for some emotional support /recognition she will quite quickly become angry like she's already put a lid on that why are you trying to bring it up again (eg: YES well as I've said I'm tired too! Now back to what I was talking about blah blah blah).

She seems to enjoy or at least not be able to help herself from trying to make me express discomfort so she can gaslight me about it. When I was younger this would usually take the form of tricking me into some kindof physical activity (eg a nice fun bike ride) which would then turn into hours and hours of cycling until I was utterly exhausted and broken. At which point she would launch into how much fun it was, how lazy I am, how other kids would love to have this experience of an amazing cycle ride, why has she put all this effort in when im so ungrateful etc etc. Thats just one example there were lots of other similar incidents. As now i obviously refuse to do any physical activity at all with her (the last time I made the mistake of agreeing to a 30 minute walk before pub lunch which she managed to turn into a 3 hour 9 mile hike by which point the pub had stopped serving lunch) she's managed somehow to make friends with my ex boyfriend and regularly talks to me about what he's up to and all the times she meets up with him. She even invited him (without telling me) to an event at her house I was also going to, altho luckily I had to leave early so missed him. If I express any emotion about her being friends with my ex I know she will immediately jump into that weird defensive gaslighty mode and enjoy it too so I just look away and don't say anything. She didn't even like him when we were together.

There's loads more examples but I don't want to write an essay or bore people! But I come away from seeing her feeling sad, angry, confused and then ruminate on it for ages afterwards and it's really annoying! Just not seeing her isn't an option as she's grandma to my kids and they love her and of course I want to facilitate a nice relationship for them.

Part of me wants my mum to recognise some of her behaviour and change but I don't think that's going to happen. I confronted her once about trying to listen to other people more and she got really angry and started shouting over me about how she doesnt want to listen to other peoples feelings, she had years of my dad wanting her to listen to him (theyre divorced) then us kids who were incredibly difficult children always trying to get her attention and now shes old dont we think she deserves to just be left alone now rather than having to listen to other people's problems. It really took me by surprise as I always thought she just didn't know how to listen and take an interest, not that she actually didn't want to. I love listening to my own children and husband.

Sorry for the rambling, just wondered if anyone has any advice or can relate at all

If she is too difficult for you to at all deal with, it’s the SAME deal for your kids too. Do not subject them to your mother, a woman who has also made the terrible choice not to love. They will end up doing as you have done I.e try without any success to gain her (condition based ) approval. You do not need her approval, approval she would never have given you anyway and she will not give approval to your kids either. Many adult children of narcissistic parents fall into the trap of allowing their kids to have a relationship with the now grandparent despite their own childhood experiences. It’s a decision that often is regretted big time.

Would you also have tolerated what your mother has done here from a friend?. Probably not and your mother is no different. You all as a family unit now need to stay well away from her. It’s not your job either to attempt to facilitate a relationship here with someone who has made no effort. If the other set of grandparents are nice and importantly emotionally healthy then concentrate your efforts on them. Of course not seeing her at all is an option and one I would advise.

Read about narcissistic personality disorder re your mother and see how much of that relates to her own behaviour and to your “relationship “ with her. I’ve put that word in quote marks because it is really not possible to have a relationship with someone who is this disordered of thinking. She was herself raised by her toxic abusive mother and such toxic dysfunction can and does go down the generations. Your mother had a choice when it came to you and she chose to repeat the same old with you that was done to her. It’s not your fault your mother is the ways she is and nor did you make her that way. Thankfully all this has and will stop now also because you have two qualities that your mother (and late grandmother) absolutely lack - empathy and insight.

I am also not at all surprised your mother is divorced, women like this cannot do relationships at all. The men in their lives if not as narcissistic as they are, are often discarded.

Have a read too of the Out of the Fog website, this may be helpful to you as would be watching YouTube videos from the likes of Dr Ramani.

And there is NO need to apologise for “rambling”!!. Do feel free to write as much or little as you wish.

@Howtogetpastthis I can identify with this, I never had a great relationship M growing up but when I had my own DD I realised just how messed up her behaviour was. She also talks a lot about her own M who has passed away and the poor treatment she suffered at her hands, much of which she repeated with me and B.

I am still trying to find a way to be at peace with this, unfortunately, she seems to be a Narc. She and my D divorced when I was young, D is re-married to another Narc and makes very minimal effort if any with me and B, he has since gone on to have other children and we have effectively been cast aside though for appearances we are "one family" - nonsense. B is also quite a toxic person, he was the goldenboy for M & GM, could do no wrong while I was punished for his behaviours. I find it very difficult to be around any of them, they all trigger me in different ways, I am effectively low contact with them all.

Going low contact has been difficult, they are all pushy people and have sensed my pushback and stepping away. They don't like it when you don't fit the role they created for you. I wish I had a solution and answer to this, being related to these people who all seem so different from me boggles my mind. I also feel the veil being lifted and seeing the dynamics for what they are has made me into quite a hard person, which I am finding difficult as that's not my nature (or maybe it is and I was made to believe otherwise through years of training), it does seem to be key though in protecting myself. Low contact has been a battle but the prolonged periods of peace are worth it.

The overriding feeling of anxiety is still there though when I do have any contact with them, I wish I could shake it and be at peace with it, maybe it will come in time. No contact would be a step too far for me, I don't have the fight in me, I just want to live in peace & none of them would let it go. We have a number of people who are NC within the family and the drama and chaos that's resulted from it just isn't worth it to me. If I moved to the other side of the world it would be an easy task but living in the same town would be very hard and I've seen how it plays out within this family.

I have not posted for a long time , l do lurk here though 😊
I feel so unhappy and need advice badly or at least a little kindness & understanding from others who know what it's like being on the recieving end of narcissistic manipulation . I have just lost my temper with my Mother . My lovely cousin has passed away yesterday and my Mum has just phoned me to say that my sister said
she 'didn't mind going to the funeral for me ' . It's my sister's and brothers cousin, it's my mother's nephew yet my sister is going for me . I was so angry l want nothing from my sister and l certainly do not want a '
favour' from her . I am NC with all of my siblings and their partners . My Mum is a histrionic narc and she has rang me tonight to tell me this . It's deliberate l know . I have stopped myself from reacting to a lot of my Mum's pokes and triggers very successfully but l just couldn't stop myself tonight l am so angry . I am angry with myself for letting my guard down and with my mother for making out that my sister is doing me a favour and being kind . I do not speak or see my sister or brother and their partners because of their treatment of me . I finally had enough .
I don't understand my reaction to this , l really lost my control . I look after my Mother and her partner every day and have done for over 5 years my siblings do nothing they barely visit her or ring her yet today my sister goes up to see her and l am rung by my Mother telling me this . Please make ME feel better . How do you see this ? Only l am doubting myself because that is how they have manipulated me and guilt tripped me all these years .Today l went to a funeral for my Mother , l didn't say l will go for my sister . I went for my Mother l would never dream of saying l went for my siblings . My Mother has defended my sister yet again to me and l am so angry . HELP 😭

Good morning everyone 🤗
Am feeling better this morning thanks for letting me vent last night 😊

@TheNewlmprovedMrsMadEvans glad you are feeling a little better. Don’t let
them doubt your own feelings. Dressing things up as “helping” or “a favour” is neither, it’s control, you were triggered because you felt this and your feelings are valid!

Thank you so much Zerochucks 💐
l have been there this morning to look after them and my Mother was very quiet . I was very busy and didn't mention it. Neither did she . I think it might have dawned on her how reliant on me they actually are. If we go then they are left high and dry because my siblings would never do anything to help out .
So l await the next poke , l had gotten so good at deflection but they caught me on a low . I will not let it happen again.
No attention is no supply , living out best lives is what really matters .

hello all,

I've name changed to try and figure some of this crap out. It's recently become very clear that my relationship with my mum is very much not healthy.

There is so much to unpick. I was in counselling for over a year but stopped early this year thinking it was enough. Somethings happened that has just dragged it all up again. I'm trying to go back to counselling but my counsellor is on sabbatical so I'll need to go through the process of finding another one.

I still live very nearby my mum (where I grew up) and have, over the years, considered relocating numerous times.

Has anyone else upped and moved to get away from their toxic relationships? It feels like a dramatic reaction.

I used to live in London but I think that just put the issues on hold. I live 2k from my parents now and I'm less enmeshed than I was when I lived in a different country. So although I do feel the temptation to up and move further away from her/them, I know that the real measure of recovery isn't the distance. However it's easy for me to say that as my parents' specialty is the silent treatment. They wouldn't hear that they'd hurt me. They martyred up. they were the victims of me. They moved between silent treatment and wanting to summons me back to play the part of daughter while merely stonewalling me letting go of the actual silent treatment, so, they are different from parents who'd be crowding you.

Before this estrangement though, my mum did not respect boundaries. She once let herself in when I had somebody here. She left books on my bed another time. On my bed? why not on the kitchen table? When I asked her not to do it again so politely and I spent ages trying to make the text sound diplomatic and pleasant, she came right back at me with a comment about having had enough of my ''nasty behavior''.

So, I do understand the desire to move further away. I can't at the moment.

ps, I was in therapy for a year too, 2021, and I stopped when i felt like I was just repeating myself endlessly.

I did make progress though. I finally got that I can't fix it, can only protect myself and should protect myself.

Things do come up though. Literally every time there is any contact at all my mother insults me. ''Insane'' was the last one. I called her a bitch right afterwards and you can bet your life, she has told everybody I called her a bitch (the first time, in over two years of estrangement) and left out the fact that she called me insane a second before that.

I had received a very cold message from her telling me not to contact her, and then unfortunately I saw her, in real life. I ran away from her and she ran after me. She called me insane.

these chance meetings that come from living close by are rare.

And it's not like my mother was running after me to listen to me! She was running after me to tell me I was mad.

Hi everyone, I’m going to catch up with everyone and say hi to new folks. This place is a lifeline.

Hag - toxic mother in law - update. It’s an essay!

so, I was mulling over hosting her and my lovely SIL and her sons/our nephews down from Scotland at my mum’s for two days. SIL’s skint (nasty divorce from Hag’s son which has left her on the breadline), Hag lives in a slum and our house is tiny. My mum loves SIL and is always happy to help us out which veers on the genuinely selfless - too much so, TBH. I’m the same.

Taken people’s advice here - thank you - and I think being exposed to the Hag for two days with all her vileness is not a good idea for me or anyone. My mental health plummets when I’m with her, hear her, or see her…not seen her since Boxing Day 2021.

She behaves like a 1000 star Bitch and still expects people to bend over backwards. Mr Monkey has already suggested SIL and nephews stay in a hotel, but I think he / I in our delusion thought my mum’s would be an option. Hag will probably offer to pay for hotel as SIL really is on the breadline and Hag likes demonstrating her largesse through cash. FFS. Or, maybe, this occurs to me now that the birthday present Hag gave my mum was Hag’s anticipating Hotel Mummy Monkey.

The sense of my decision - I came to it some weeks ago after the good advice here - has been underlined by the witch’s behaviour this weekend. Mr Monkey and I are sorting our spare room/dumping ground which my mum was helping with on Saturday. Tip, 15,000 books to Oxfam etc.

We are driving to Oxfam on the other side of Manchester, the phone rings. It is the Hag having a meltdown about her washing machine not working. Mr Monkey points out that he is sorting stuff out for us and gives her very clear instructions about turning it off - it’s stuck in mid-cycle. That is all. It can wait. I will be round tomorrow.

He repeats this several times.

He clearly says he’s busy, over the other side of Manchester and will come over Sunday afternoon to sort it out after establishing there is no leak. Hag is hyperventilating and making it into a huge drama. Just the mere phone ringing from her sets my teeth on edge. Hag is not satisfied by MM’s answer and rings back 10 minutes later. He keeps to his line.

He is supposed to be going out for birthday drinks with his friends - not seen for two years - so is dropped at home to get ready. I go for late lunch with my mum, and, as predicted, 30 minutes later texts to say he’s going to the Hag’s. Further text later “I’m so stressed, I’m not going out”.

Apparently, the Hag rang him umpteen times whilst he’s cooking some food and trying to eat it. Phone call after phone call. He doesn’t answer the phone when he’s in the loo - “you should take your mobile with you, that’s what a mobile is for” and as he’s walking to her flat, keeps ringing him screaming “where are you?”

He gets to the flat and she’s screaming “get in there” pointing at the kitchen. MM tells her that he’s no longer a child and she can’t speak to him like that which she is flabbergasted at.
He keeps to his line. You cannot speak to me like that, if you carry on, I’ll leave.

“Oh, that’s right, don’t help your mother. Just leave me”

She’d, OF COURSE, got the neighbours involved. “I think x next door is cross with me” and, of course, X can hear the screaming through the walls.

“My life is terrible”
“No one helps me”
“I’m just here on my own” etc etc etc

WHO’S FUCKING FAULT IS THAT.

Head down like small child on the sofa, crying, screaming.

Mr Monkey comes home. He tells me all about it and that confirmed my decision to not “help out”. I’d not actually not asked my mum which says a lot about my subconscious at work. I owe The Hag NOTHING.

Mr Monkey IS getting stronger in his boundaries, the counselling is really helping him with the years of abuse, but she’s incredibly difficult to deal with - off the scale - and his sense of responsibility which he should NOT have in dealing with such an abusive witch overcomes the sensible thing to do which is cutting off contact altogether.

I’ve just told him. He’s really upset. He, of course, gets it, but is upset that this is the line I’m pushed to.

“You will see everyone, won’t you?”

“Of course, but I’m not prepared to deal with any more of your mum’s drama. I’ll go out for a lunch with her and the rest of your family - I don’t want to hurt SIL’s feelings and I will spend the weekend doing stuff with SIL - but I won’t tolerate any more of the Hag’s bullshit. My mum is 77, my family is over from The Netherlands during that time, and WE are the priority, not pretending to play happy families with someone so toxic. My family don’t have to have responsibility for her, nor do I”.

Line drawn. Feeling terrible.

Oh, and the temptation to go to her slum and scream at her is HUGE. I won’t, though. I’ve deleted her from my phone and blocked her. Sick of her. Will not deal with her any more. Done. Dusted.

I hope someone can offer some advice

I haven’t done enough research not yet ‘labelled’ the dynamic in my family but I feel quite sick.

My sister (older by several years) gets married soon and I have taken a step back from her since Christmas for reasons including: pushing me over on holiday, calling me boring for not drinking, being incredibly hostile towards my partner, always domineering the conversation etc. She guilted me and my mum over text for not being able to make a dress fitting appointment, we are both sensitive and like to people please and my mum took this quite badly at the time but was fast to forgive her.

I’m trying to stop it in its tracks but my sister has run to my mum crying saying I don’t care, I’m destroying our sister relationship (yet she has blocked me on all social media), lots of contradictory things that make no sense. She really plays the victim yet when I explain to her why I’ve distanced myself a bit she will gaslight me and say I’m looking for trouble.

My mum just makes excuse after excuse for her, has said it’s her mental health and if I knew her better I’d know she’s had a tough few months. She’s pressuring me SO much saying ‘I’ll have no family’, and my behaviour is ‘inexcusable’ and my excuses for being disinterested in my sister are wearing thin. She doesn’t know who I am anymore and I don’t understand the ramifications of my actions for the family, apparently.

All of this has left me feeling really quite unwell. My partner stays out of it yet they somehow between them have decided he has a part in why I’ve realised my sisters behaviour isn’t great.

My dad is absolutely lovely about it and stands by the fact we are both different. He stays extremely in the middle, but that’s fine by me.

How do I go on? Sick of repeating boundaries and them being ignored, and I’m being so guilt tripped by my mum that I am starting to feel responsible.

@chatterbug22 I’m so sorry to hear this. In dysfunctional families, we all get roles.

Your dad is the passive one who doesn’t want to rock the boat, your mum is complicit in your sister’s abuse - because that’s what it is - of you.

Keep your boundaries with your sister, as low contact as possible, don’t get drawn into her drama.

Your mum? Don’t bother trying to explain yourself, your mum is also gaslighting you or can’t deal with the facts in front of her, or enjoys the drama, or feels guilty as a mum and is shifting responsibility from her to you. It could be all of it. It doesn’t actually matter in some ways, it’s unhealthy and not good for you. It’s so hard to work out what goes on when you’re in the mire of it all. Try and bat away the conversations about you and your sister.

So... had phone call with my parents last night. I was belated in calling regarding his birthday and their anniversary. I know I should be better about those things, but to be honest, I am not big on these even in my own life. It is just too much pressure. Nothing I do is ever really appreciated, so I just have anxiety leading up to all holidays (I especially hate mother's and father's day). Keep in mind, my parents basically never call me, but I call about once every 8 weeks (otherwise I am shamed for not calling - I guess the phone only works one way). They are only interested in my husband. According to my father, my husband works hard (note I have a full-time career, at a very nice level in a global company and I think most people would feel I am rather successful). If my parents come over and my husband is cooking (even though I cleaned and did prep work, etc) I have to hear how I should cook because my husband works so hard (I guess I don't?). Also, if my husband has an issue at his job I am told it is my fault because I should help him with his work. Anyway, I wished my father a happy birthday which was met by "well that was days ago". I told them my daughter and I were learning the ukelele. I then was told how I have no musical talent (repeatedly) and that I also cannot sing. When no one in my family acknowledged him and agreed, he repeated this over and over again while we tried to change the subject. Yes, my daughter heard all this, but she is a teen and she even defended me. He moved on to picking on my dog (an abused rescue). He takes issue with the fact my dog doesn't like him - - because he approached the dog in a frantic manner when I asked him to leave the dog alone and clearly told him the dog was afraid of people. Basically, calling to wish them happiness resulted in me being insulted for about 30 minutes. This situation basically just reoccurs anytime I deal with them, just simply swap these insults for different ones. It is infuriating, and even more so because I distance myself (for my own preservation) and am then shamed for being the cause of poor family relationships.

@ConfusedGoat that’s horrible. You are right to keep your distance. Your parents do NOT deserve to have you phoning them, celebrating birthdays or anything. That’s emotional abuse. I don’t have any advice per se, but it IS abuse.

What infuriates me about emotional abusers is that they don’t see anything wrong with what they do to YOU and they would NEVER behave like this to anyone who “matters”.

You’ve done incredibly well to get a great job and family as many, many people who’ve been emotionally abused as a child - I’m assuming that was the case - have NO confidence. I see that in Mr Monkey because of the abuse by his vile mother aka The Hag. I’m glad your daughter can see them for what they are. Are they critical of her?

Wondering if anyone can offer a bit of advice on how to deal with this situation.

DH and I went no contact with MIL and her husband a while ago. It all came to a head when DD was born and their toxic manipulative behaviour going back decades became too much. They started directing it at DD, so we decided it was the only option to protect her.

Life has been so much better without them. Only they have started sending DD birthday and Christmas cards. I chucked them in the recycling at first but yet again another card was sent for DD’s recent birthday.

She’s only small and can’t read or understand the concept of a card just yet . My concern is that eventually she will and DH and I will be painted as some sort of villain for throwing the cards away (Which is why i suspect they are sending cards to a baby in the first place)

I’m not sure if the best course of action would be to return the cards to sender to let them know they are not welcome and have no power over us. However I fear this will lead them to think a channel of communication is open and that they could get back in touch to have it out with us (again another reason I thing they are sending the cards)

or

keep ignoring the cards and throwing them away. Which I fear will let them think they still have some sort of power over us and can still get to us. Then in a few years time DD starts to wonder who these cards are from.

• side note, I do intend to explain to DD when she is old enough to understand that we don’t keep in touch with her dads mother and the reasons why. As I expect MIL will come out of the wood work eventually and contact DD accusing us of all sorts.

I know it seems trivial compared to all the other stories on here but any advice on how act would be appreciated. TIA

Do not ever acknowledge any of these cards; you are doing the right thing in disposing of them because apart from anything else it's unwanted contact from them. They are using cards as a way of trying to manipulate you. ANY response from you is the "reward" to such disordered of thinking people; they know they have you then. Do not give these items any more power; dispose of such things via the shredder.

If these people are too toxic for YOU to deal with, its the same deal for your child too. You are absolutely doing the right thing here in protecting her from such people in her life and she does not need cards from people who abuse her parents (and in turn her own self). She is therefore unlikely to regard either of you as villains of the piece for doing what you are doing now because she is relying on your good judgment. Give her the age appropriate truth re these people over time and if the other set of grandparents are nice and importantly emotionally healthy, concentrate your efforts on them.

Wow Atilla you are so right. Think I just needed to hear it!!!

any contact we make is a reward to them. I think the cards are away of trying to goad us into getting back in touch.

thank so much for your insight x