April 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It’s April 2022 and the Stately Home is still open to all comers.

@MonkeyfromManchester Thank you so much for the response. I appreciate your confirming that this treatment is abusive. Part of me knows it is, but then I find myself minimizing what goes on and thinking I am being overly sensitive or exaggerating.

My daughter is very bright and has never fallen for my parents "jokes". When she was little my mother told me I wasn't a real parent because I only have 1 child. This was done in front of my daughter and was rather relentless. My daughter (4 at the time) had enough and shouted at my mother "stop it. she isn't having another baby because there isn't one in her belly!" They have often contradicted my parenting in front of my daughter. I was called ridiculous for not letting her watch tv when she was under 5. Keep in mind that instead I did loads of games and art with her and took her to lovely places. She was very engaged and never bored - she has probably experienced more than most kids her age. Then I was criticized for not getting her a phone at 10. They even went so far as to buy her an iPod touch that had internet access, even though they knew I was against it because at 10 she was too young for unsupervised access.

They don't criticize my daughter, but she says they know nothing about her. When she tells them of any accomplishment, they change the discussion to talk about what her cousins have accomplished. I often think they feel the need to level the playing field between me and my sister (they view me as more successful and know my daughter is very bright). Now I think it is more that they cannot relate to her independence, and they know she sees the truth of the situation. My parents want to make all the rules and want everyone to agree with whatever they say (particularly my father) and they seem to struggle with interacting with anyone who would speak their own mind. Difference of opinion = personal criticism to them. They also have this family image that they expect everyone to portray, and I am not very good at doing so because it is not genuine).
I would not say that I am vastly confident. It was only a few months ago that I finally understood the problem was with my parents. Up until then I thought there was something intrinsically wrong with me. That is actually how I became successful - I kept trying harder and harder to be perfect and constantly ripped myself apart. I would get off the phone with a friend and recount the conversation, criticizing anything I may have said that was wrong. I did the same with my work. I actually thought everyone in life did this in order to be the best they could be. I was stunned to realize this was bad and was called self-gaslighting. Now when my brain goes there I say to myself "no. that is not your voice, that is your parents." It is much easier to stop those horrible voices when I recognize it to be their internalized abuse of me. That said, I am still on the journey and it takes a lot of work not to gaslight myself. I will also say that I only started making my own decisions based on what makes me happy in the past few months. My career, all my household and financial decisions, etc., were always being made based on trying to make my parents happy. In some ways this worked out for me in terms of success (but not necessarily happiness), but I certainly would have chosen a different path if I had a more functional family. I just never really took my own feelings into account. In some ways I was taught to have no feelings. Now I just struggle with a lot of saddness at realizing what my family is and how negatively it impacted me. It is a special type of mourning I guess.

What you write is so beautiful about finding your own way and how you parent your daughter consciously differently and brilliantly. Your parents cannot stand the way you’ve rejected their BS. You have a very smart daughter - out of the mouths of babes and all that. Continue to put them at the biggest distance possible and do all your good stuff with your daughter.

I’ve just been talking to Mr Monkey about his therapy session today. He’s now committed to switching his phone off when he’s doing stuff where he doesn’t want the Hag’s cacophony.

He also told me that when I was away last weekend whooping it up in Lisbon with my friends that she “fell” and was “lying on the floor for hours” (her words during the 10.30pm phone call) He didn’t dash round and pointed out that she has an alarm pendant which rings a control centre NOT us. I explicitly made it not come through to us when dealing with the company to set it up. Basically, she slipped off the sofa - where she sleeps - and decided to have a drama. Funny how she had the drama when she knew that I was away. 🤔 she’s RELENTLESS. He is getting so strong in
his dealings with her. His therapist praised him for recognising the control, the divide and rule and how disgusting her behaviour is. So proud of him.

@ConfusedGoat just noticed that the mention of your daughter’s cousins’ achievements isn’t levelling the playing field, it’s negating your smart daughter and therefore you. Horrible to use children as weapons. It is SO good that you are joining all the dots. Abusers are fantastic at making you feel that you have to accept the status quo and doubt your instincts. Keep on keeping on.

Mr Monkey has gone through this journey and is finding counselling immeasurably helpful. It shores up his determination to live differently. This forum has really made me join up the dots, bin the Hag and support the most important person: my partner.

@MonkeyfromManchester You are exactly right. It does negate my daughter's accomplishments. Thank you for that insight. Counselling is great and my partner and I go weekly. It can be hard for a partner who is on the outside to understand the situation and realize the full toxicity. I just wish it didn't take me so many years to understand what was going on. Super glad you tossed the Hag into the circular file cabinet!

@MonkeyfromManchester thank you.

My DM now isn’t speaking to me, because my lack of effort in the lead up to DSis wedding is ‘inexcusable’ and I am not aware of the long term ramifications of my actions. I can’t work DM out, I don’t know if she sees it or not.

DSis constantly tells everyone how much she cares about me, asks family members how I’m doing… yet behind the scenes she is flying off the handle accusing me of destroying the sister relationship, saying she’d do anything to repair it, yet also blocking me(?). She cannot stand my partner, my theory is because he and my dad get on well. Spoke to my dad yesterday who is very neutral and can see the behaviour, though he hasn’t said so much. He is more accepting that different personalities don’t have to get on.

All I’ve done is call out the behaviour and then very quietly take a step back. I am a sensitive person as it is and worry about upsetting others, so the level of guilt I feel is unreal. My sister has told me that me taking a step back has affected her feelings about her own wedding, and her 2022 so far. When I try to explain why she will just accuse me of looking for trouble or taking her behaviour the wrong way.

Her wedding is soon and I am still officially bridesmaid.

In the limited times she’s met my partner (probably less than 10, as we got together at the start of the pandemic) she has decided she cannot stand him. We went for a week away in the UK late last year, both couples and my parents, and it was a disaster with DSis only able to talk about herself and criticising me and my partner for little things like not drinking - incredibly subtly - whenever she could. She has not even mentioned him in the wedding accommodation, although he was on the formal invite a couple of years ago. She pretends as if he doesn’t exist and it is horrible and really cruel, two people don’t have to get on but they can be civil and conversational which is all my partner’s tried to do but been met with hostility.

Obviously on her actual wedding weekend nobody can call her out on anything, regardless of how it might be. I am seriously considering whether it’s worth my OH going or not. He is also in two minds over it. On the one hand, I would feel a bit lousy there by myself, and it might be seen as strange to immediate and extended family if he doesn’t go because we’ve been together 2 years and live together. We are serious and as far as I’m concerned he is my family. My DM certainly would never forgive him and they could all say he wasn’t making an effort to be part of the family. I would hope she is concentrated on other things on her special day. However, I can see things going the other way, ie her leaving him out of photos, finding a way to create some kind of drama or being particularly unpleasant and once you’re there it’s a lot harder to come away without feeding into whatever her narrative might be. I suppose if that is the way others will surely see the behaviour for what it is.

What would you do? My friends say he/we shouldn’t back down and should go as normal, but I don’t know if it’s worth taking the risk and which option would be better at this stage

@chatterbug22 don’t feel bad about only seeing this abusive family situation recently. Toxic families are REALLY good at making it seem normal & negating your feelings that it is wrong. It IS wrong.

your mum is part of the problem by turning a blind eye to what’s going on and actually facilitating it. Your dad isn’t going to get involved because he’s frightened of rocking the boat. It’s great that he likes your partner, but that’s enough. Sadly, you need to accept that the three of them are the problem.

Frankly, fuck what your sister thinks about you ruining 2022. She’s always going to find a problem with everything you do. And your mum is going to listen to the nonsense or be part of the problem.

with regard to the wedding, you CAN back out. This will unleash a shower of shit, but it is an option for you. It might mean she never speaks to you again, but that might be a very good thing.

You CANNOT reason with these people. Self-preservation means backing away, and not feeling bad about it. It is YOUR family, not YOU doing this shit. I’ve found NC really helpful with The Hag - easier because she’s not my mum.

What does your partner think? Does he want to go? Yes, he will probably want to do the ‘decent’ thing and support you, but he might have his own views of not wanting to go. And that’s OK. If you’re having counsellor together, I’d suggest that you talk about it in that safe space and back each other up. IF he chooses not to go, that’s not a rejection of you. But if he does go and isn’t included, he might not actually give a shit and is there as support.

you are able to do the wedding in your way. You don’t have to explain or justify what you’re doing. Your sister is certainly not articulating what her game is, she won’t, but you know what it is now which is a more powerful place to do.

Your sister, frankly, is trying to break you up. Pribably because she sees you have a good relationship and there’s support for you there. Your relationship and your happiness is the priority.

You will be in the dog house whatever you do - go with your partner or not with your partner. It’s really up to him (and uou!) what you do, not her. You are not “backing down” by prioritising his/your happiness. It’s a hard thing to negotiate. When is the wedding? Drop the meet ups and contact as much as you can.

Your sister will hopefully look back on her wedding and regret her behaviour, but she won’t. She feels no guilt or responsibility. I wonder about the long term happiness in her marriage. You can look forward to long-term drama there, and another reason to go low contact.

the priority is you, your daughter and your relationship. Never lose sight of that.

I can only reiterate what MonkeyfromManchester has written here in her posts. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles and yours here is one of scapegoat.

I would further read about triangulation in narcissistic family structures with your mother being at the centre of this. Triangulation is when a toxic or manipulative person, often a person with strong narcissistic traits, brings a third person into their relationship in order to remain in control. There will be limited or no communication between the two triangulated individuals except through the manipulator. It could be argued your sister is a carbon copy of your mother who is herself a narcissist. She is certainly more favoured over you by your mother.

Your dad here sadly cannot be relied upon either; his roles here are that of enabler and bystander and is acting out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He will not protect you from his wife's excesses of behaviour and will continue to throw both you and your man under the bus to appease his wife.

The best thing to do with family like this (and its not your fault they are like this either) is to back away completely. Its not possible to have a relationship with people this disordered of thinking and ultimately you need to adopt a no contact position with any of them.

So, therapy for me today. New therapist so it’s the first time I talked about Hag and dysfunction.

Counsellor confirmed Hag is abusive and that my feelings and my partners are completely right. She was horrified.

She confirmed me going low contact veering on no contact was absolutely right. I know that now even without confirmation, but it’s great to have that from an expert.

She also talked about how the Hag is a massive part of my anxiety. Advice is to do more things for myself, without my partner so I’m getting a break from it all. It’s OK for Mr Monkey ti talk to me and for me to support him, but I need space to recuperate. I’m just going to do it without explaining so he doesn’t feel guilty or responsible,

I think I’m going to explain to my sister in law what’s been going on so she knows and is fully aware of the facts.

I am NOT going to be painted as a villain. I will do a two hour meal including The Hag and Slave Son when SIL and nephews are here because I don’t want The Hag to shift the bad role to me. Fucking fuck her. I love the rest of MM’s family like cousins etc. and I want to enjoy their company.

great to have a good chat with my therapist today.

And re your sister's wedding I would now decline any and all further involvement. Their rage will be further unleashed but other than shout and scream what else can they really do?.

Glad to read your therapy session was a good session Monkey.

@AttilaTheMeerkat @MonkeyfromManchester

Thanks so much. I think it’s just tough because she’s really clever. I don’t see any traits in my mum to be honest, she is very much a peacekeeper and a people pleaser by her own admission. She struggles to apologise for things and has very much sided with my sister over things, telling me I’ll have no family and that she doesn’t recognise me anymore. I am wondering if this is because it’s easier to believe my sister’s version than confront her and risk a fall out.

However, with my sister, it’s always somebody else who’s the problem not her. She dislikes her SIL for similar reasons to me. It feels a bit like she is threatened by us but I have no idea why. She lives a very successful life yet likes to probe in mine. Will do lovely things for me in front of other people and it really seems to be to mask the subtle times she isn’t nice.

I have explained to my dad that she is in charge of the whole family, and he just looked a bit bewildered and said she wasn’t in charge of him.

I will put us first, I can’t risk being the scapegoat for too much longer as it’s certainly not healthy. We will never be forgiven if either of us don’t attend but I also don’t want to ask my partner to compromise what makes him happy. It’s tough. Wedding is in a few weeks.

@MonkeyfromManchester glad it went well, sounds like she really validated you. It’s hard isn’t it because you feel like you’re going crazy sometimes and wonder if you are the problem!

"I think it’s just tough because she’s really clever".

People like your sister always think they're clever or superior to anyone else but they are not so really. They want praise, compliments, deference, and expressions of envy all the time, and they want to be told that everything they do is better than what others can do. Sincerity is not an issue here; all that matter are frequency and volume.

"I don’t see any traits in my mum to be honest, she is very much a peacekeeper and a people pleaser by her own admission. She struggles to apologise for things and has very much sided with my sister over things, telling me I’ll have no family and that she doesn’t recognise me anymore. I am wondering if this is because it’s easier to believe my sister’s version than confront her and risk a fall out".

Your mother has and will continue to throw you under the bus at your expense. Your parents too created this dynamic that in all likelihood has been going on between you as sisters since childhood. If your mother is a people pleaser that behaviour often starts by wanting to parent please a difficult or otherwise emotionally absent parent. Consider what you know about your mother's childhood; you will find further clues there in that. It may also be the case that your mother wants both of you as her now adult children to get along so she does not have to deal with this because she cannot and equally will not.

You and your man here need to present a united front going forward. I would still consider rescinding your role as bridesmaid at her wedding as she will make her wedding day all the more difficult for you (and no doubt your mother and father will chime in support at some point during that too). And re your mother's point about having no family well she is dead wrong there and is manipulation 101. You have your own family unit now and you do not need your family of origin's approval, not that they'd ever give you this anyway.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you.

I am coming to see this, it’s just tough as most of OH’s family live overseas apart from one family member who we are close with.

I think I’m just struggling to see how my sister could turn out this way when we both had the same upbringing. My dad frames it as ‘six of one, half a dozen of the other’ and says I take things too sensitively sometimes, which is a little bit invalidating but I understand the reasons why it makes more sense for him to keep the peace. My mum hasn’t apologised for the comment of ‘you’ll end up with no family’ and has in fact said she meant it. I called it out via voice message a few days ago as I’d simply had enough and told her she was enabling and it was damaging… heard absolutely nothing back.

I want so badly for everyone to get on and I think that’s been my undoing.

We do need to go to the wedding, really. I want her to have happy memories of it and that has always been the case. I am hopeful she will only be thinking of that rather than any unkindness.

After that I will be taking many large steps back. I’m not sure whether or not I will give her an explanation. Somehow my sister has framed it that my partner is getting in the way of our relationship but I can’t even begin to explain how inaccurate that is, he stays very neutral and has never given her a reason for this! Families hey!

@chatterbug22 it’s AMAZING to get that validation. Mr Monkey knew he needed therapy, but he was frightened and now he’s been having it since March. He’s now tackling the CPTSD which is painful, but necessary.

therapist gave him really good advice yesterday that he should switch his phone off when he needs to and when he’s going out. And he’s going to do it!!!!

Does anyone think ‘caring too much what people think’ is a consequence / side effect of being the scapegoat? Just interested.

Thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat we’re both getting there. It’s such good progress.

Mr Monkey is going to tell Slave Son of the new plan of switching his phone off as what the Hag does is ring Slave Son to RING Mr Monkey when she can’t get hold of MM.

Obviously, it’s dragging Slave Son into the drama. And he, of course, capitulates and rings MM. it’s utterly ridiculous and CONTROLLING as we know.

SS is a fucking idiot to let this happen and let her ruin his life. No relationship in 40 years, he’s an alcoholic and his only social life is going to the social club where Hag worked for 30 years. Too scared to take a holiday. She hugely resents us going away as we go away as respite care AND TO ENJOY OURSELVES. Totally alien concept. Her only enjoyment is being vile.

we’re drawing a line under the bullshit. This step of switching the phone off is another boundary. He pushes back on her abuse, doesn’t let her ring him every day, points out her life options, closes down the word salad. His only real contact is taking her to medical appointments. Hairdressers is passed to her one and only friend who is a living saint, but, of course, Hag would never behave like this in front of HER. Therapist really admires what he’s doing.

@MonkeyfromManchester switching off phone is a good idea! Power to you both

I could do to do that sometimes.

"I think I’m just struggling to see how my sister could turn out this way when we both had the same upbringing. My dad frames it as ‘six of one, half a dozen of the other’ and says I take things too sensitively sometimes, which is a little bit invalidating but I understand the reasons why it makes more sense for him to keep the peace. My mum hasn’t apologised for the comment of ‘you’ll end up with no family’ and has in fact said she meant it. I called it out via voice message a few days ago as I’d simply had enough and told her she was enabling and it was damaging… heard absolutely nothing back".

And you likely will not do so either; people like your mother never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. As for your dad your further comments re him just further cement my own view on him. He really cannot be at all relied upon by you in any way; he is truly his wife's willing enabler. Women like your mother cannot do relationships and always but always need a willing enabler to help them.

You may well have had the same sort of upbringing materially but you did not have the same upbringing. I still think your sister is very much a carbon copy of your mother.

You taking many large steps back from all three of them going forward is indeed a recommended course of action. These people are all toxic to you.

@chatterbug22 YOU are not the problem, they ARE. Toxic families assign roles. Sounds like your sister and drama thrive on drama, your dad is avoidant and is controlled and you’re the scapegoat. You don’t deserve YOUR role and it’s not true.

sorry to say, but the roles are there, despite you having the same childhood. If you analyse more, you will get clues as to what went on. It’s not six of one, half a dozen of the other, your sister IS being abusive. There’s NO point trying to talk to your mum about it. Withdraw from the conversations, don’t bother. They thrive on the drama.

You’ll end up with no family is a threat. No point rising to it or giving it headspace. And you have a family - your daughter, partner and friends. They are your priority.

I’d say it’s pretty normal for scapegoats to subdue their feelings, want to be kind, ‘understand’, put the abusers first and people please. It’s your expected role.

taje care, you WILL find peace. Just prioritise yourself xxx

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you. I have thought a bit about this in the past, as a child I’d always struggle with not having a routine and was not an easy toddler. Had meltdowns way beyond the usual age, so I think I was framed as ‘tricky’ even though I always had the best of best materially, and was doted on.
As I’ve gotten older it’s emerged I may be on the autism spectrum. I know a lot of people are, and that’s fine. But I wonder if that going misunderstood or just washed over as ‘hard to deal with’ could have made my sister resentful or instilled the view that I am difficult.

Who knows! I wish everyone could get on so much. It’s funny you say that, I think you are either really insightful or have experienced something incredibly similar because everyone says that about my sister and mum. You’ve given me a lot to think about with your perspective, thank you. I hope you’re doing well too.

@chatterbug22 god knows, why we didn’t think of it earlier! Therapist has given permission as MM has been unable to do that or give himself a break.

@chatterbug22 I identify with a lot of things that have happened in your toxic family, in particular the "logic" that 2 siblings had the same upbringing. With the help of a therapist, and having been NC with my narc "mother" for almost a year, it is so much clearer to me now. Although my sibling was trouble from early on whilst I was the well behaved one, my sibling (now an overt narcissist) was allowed get away with anything but I got into big trouble for little things. My husband always said that it seemed I married "out" of the family whilst my sibling's spouse married "in". I was always confused and upset that any pleasure I gave my parents seemed to be short-lived, then for no reason I could figure out I was out of favour and my "mother" ignoring me for weeks. She would never admit this though, just pretending she was busy, this was head-wrecking as I knew she was shunning me. My therapist says people who have had abuse like mine are trained from a very young age to sense these things, so I knew without her telling me that I was being punished again. It is only in retrospect that I realise, and am disappointed and disgusted in equal measure, that my father watched this go on and stayed out of it.

My "mother" is a covert narcissist. I've only recently learned that some are overt where it's quite obvious (like Donald Trump) and some are really super sneaky. I have been following an account on Instagram which gives bite-size snippets on the effects of narcissistic abuse and finding it very helpful in terms of articulating my thoughts and feelings www.instagram.com/understandingthenarc/ While reading your story about your sister's behaviour, a recent post from the account came to mind:
"One of the most insidious manipulations covert narcissists access when they want to damage your reputation is, talking badly about you under the guise of being concerned, they will call people and say things like 'I am so worried about her, she is acting crazy and out of control. I don't know what to do, or how to help her.' Making it seem like they have your best interest at heart meanwhile they are saying you are crazy, out of control and insinuating you are potentially dangerous either to yourself, others or both. It is a sneaky way to badmouth you, without actually badmouthing you. -Maria Consiglio"

I think it is part of a parent's job to nurture good relations between their children. My "mother" made no effort in this regard and my sibling and I have been estranged for many years. My life improved immeasurably after this. Healthy relationships don't cause this level of stress. If they do, it is best to step away and look after yourself. You can't change other people, you can only change how you react to them. I'm so sorry I didn't cut my parents out a long time ago, the effect of their treatment of me will take a long time to come to terms with.

@AttilaTheMeerkat and @MonkeyfromManchester speak good sense. I'd suggest arranging some therapy for yourself as soon as you can to help you see the situation more clearly. Perhaps you can be lucky enough to escape this toxic situation earlier than I did.