DH shouts at me for putting kids in "danger"

[Eyes99]

This morning as we were rushing to get DC ready for nursery - I left the childgate open and out 2.5 year old walked up the stairs and got something from his bedroom

DH spotted DC had gone upstairs and said "You left the bloody gate open, DS could have fallen back down the stairs and cracked his head open"

I said "you are being a bit dramatic" and he then basically lost his s*it and said I'm like a defensive teenager more interested in "not being told off" than our 'DC safety'.

DH then accused me of not caring about DS safety.

This ended in an almighty row and now he's not talking to me

I think I shouldn't have left the gate open but every time DS grabs something he shouldn't (I try my hardest to toddler proof things and I'm very careful) - he always says the worst thing that could have happened e.g. DS grabbed a perfume bottle out of my hand and DS ran off with it and DH said 'He could have poisoned himself'. It's just all a bit much???

He suffers from anxiety. But I don't want to be shouted at all the time. For me - I just think we are as careful as possible but DH gets angry about things that haven't actually happened. He was literally shouting 'DS could have died falling down those stairs' while poor DS is just stood perfectly safe waiting to be driven to nursery

To my mind- the shouting is more damaging as it's actually bloody happening.

Am I too relaxed? Should I be grateful for a DH so child safety conscious?

@Poppy709 - you're 100% right.

The problem is he thinks he is being totally logical e.g. when I say to him about anxiety this is his response

"I know you think I'm OTT - but I'd rather be OTT than have something awful happen to our kids. I can't see how you don't understand that - we need to keep them safe, so I will do whatever I need to do to do that. I don't understand why you have a go at me for wanting to keep the kids safe'

And then anything I say after that is trumped by

"So you think that's more important than keeping the kids safe'

It's like he's got the golden ticket. He cares. I don't.

He gets he has anxiety becuase he's not unable to cope with work (hence going part time) and because he also gets verbal tics sometimes (random words shouted, usually my name). But he doesn't think the kid stuff is the same. I guess neither do quite a lot of commentators on here either.

@mathanxiety

I strongly suspect your H needs help getting over the terrible loss of your twins.

Please, please drag him to the GP to talk about his behaviour and what is behind it.

The fixation on calamity is a sign that he urgently needs medical help to cope with grief, anxiety and possibly depression, certainly the anger that often comes with loss.

Good point.

Anxiety can often show as anger. He may, in his mind, be desperately trying to stop anything else from taking away one of his children. You've both been through heartbreaking loss. If he already tended toward being anxious it's not surprising his anxiety spiralled and yes sounds a bit out of control. Anxiety can generate this gittery excess energy inside you, yelling, to stop you from doing the risky behaviour again can give a sense of control. It sounds like he really needs some more support right now, therapy, maybe medication to help him. It's a horrible feeling being trapped inside that spiralling fear.

With the CBT, given what you've said about the emails he may be unable to communicate to set that up, second guessing himself and his words, trying to reach out feeling the panic rise and putting it off to another day because that's the only thing that shuts the panic down. Talk to him, he may need you to advocate for him, to maybe make the initial phone call or go into the GP together. He shouldn't be yelling and he shouldn't be scaring your child by talking about dying, but rather than a debate on, who's more unreasonable, helping him access MH support is a lot more likely to help you both get out of the current bad dynamic.

Ah I’m so sorry, this sounds like such a difficult situation. I think if he went to therapy for the other anxiety, hopefully a good therapist might be able to help him realise that it is also spilling over to the kids. Obviously if you were signing your 2 year old up for axe throwing lessons then yes, he may have a point, but safety is not the be all and end all of life. That’s what I constantly had to tell myself, what do I want my child’s life to be like? What is the cost of keeping them ‘safe’ all the time? A joyful life comes with (managed) risk, in my opinion. But, if he had never experienced life without that fear and that’s how he was raised, I suppose it will be very difficult to have that idea to strive towards.
There are definitely times where it spikes, for example I developed a fixation about DS catching RSV after he was hospitalised for another virus, went down a rabbit hole for a few days of constant temperature taking, looking for signs of breathing difficulties etc. but I can then recognise that I’m spiralling, it’s my anxiety talking etc and talk myself down. And I know that that’s my responsibility as a parent. I’m so sorry you find yourself in this situation, anxiety really does take so much from you and the people around you.
How would he respond to an ultimatum about getting help? I’m pretty sure that’s what my husband would have done for me, his attitude was incredibly caring but very much I will do everything to help you as long as you’re helping yourself as well. If he had enabled me too much I know it would have caused more problems.

Ironically (is it irony??) - we still pay for childcare when DH is off work because he doesn't seem able to cope.

What would happen if he had the kids all day? On his own? Do you think it would be enough for him to realise that either he needs help or that he can't control them constantly and you can't always be in control of everything?

@sillysmiles - the issue is there is practical implications as he can't drive (we do live near a train station but not v. convenient) so that limits what they could do. For example, I'm going a funeral in a couple of weeks and he has got his mum to come round to 'help with driving'. But we both know it's because he feels overwhelmed/exhausted by it.

But a lot of people I've spoke to in real life says I need to go back into the office/go on a night out/go shopping and just leave him to it.

"I know you think I'm OTT - but I'd rather be OTT than have something awful happen to our kids. I can't see how you don't understand that - we need to keep them safe, so I will do whatever I need to do to do that. I don't understand why you have a go at me for wanting to keep the kids safe'

And then anything I say after that is trumped by

"So you think that's more important than keeping the kids safe'

Aaah, I recognise this deflect tool - used by so many emotionally abusive men, often using anxiety/low self esteem as an excuse. Scenario is that man does something unacceptable but, because the woman did something wrong too (or as a result of), the thing the man did is ignored/minimised/considered irrelevant.

I would be saying, "You screaming at me, frightening the children and catastrophising is certainly no more acceptable than me making a mistake."

It won't help though.

Honestly, the more I read your updates, the more I think you are close to ultimatum time - he needs to seek help for his anxiety and his anger issues or you will leave. And if you leave, yes, his anxiety might get worse but I can assure you that you do not need to worry about him wanting or getting the DC most of the time (or even half the time). It seems hard to believe anyone is going to think that he should have the kids more than you when he currently has them alone LESS than you, even though he only works part time....

Eyes

re your comment:-

"Ironically (is it irony??) - we still pay for childcare when DH is off work because he doesn't seem able to cope. We both say it's because we don't want to disrupt the routine...but yesterday...I worked all day, the two kids were in nursery and back home by 4pm, I then finished work at 5.30 (so he'd had them for 1.5 hours alone) - and he was sat on the sofa staring at the floor zoned out while the DC were running around causing havoc. So I don't trust him to do it alone all day when he's off. So I don't know how I can ever feel able to leave them with him post-separation or overnight"

If he cannot really be bothered to look after them or otherwise parent them within the home after a mere 90 minutes, what makes you at all think he would be at all bothered with them post separation?. He in all likelihood won't be; this is who he is. Oh yes, some of these types may demand 50/50 etc but this is used by them as a further stick to beat their woman who they hate and or see as his possession, with.

In your case his mother was and is herself an anxious person; he grew up seeing that as his normal. She's likely never addressed it and has also not wanted to either.

His silent treatment is another form of emotional abuse shown towards you.

He does not have an anger management problem because he can and does control himself around other people.

He has a problem with anger, YOUR anger, when you rightly call him out on his behaviours.

If you were to issue an ultimatum to him you need to be completely prepared to follow through on it. If you cannot do that then do not issue it Such things can really only be issued one time, repeated ultimatums lose their effect and power.

Am I surprised that he has indeed not followed through re wanting to get CBT; not a bit of it. He does this because he can and he has learnt too that this works for him.

No advice as I'm in the same situation but it is absolutely exhausting. Every time I make a little mistake it is blown out of all proportion. The four of five times she has been injured have all been when I was at work and he was responsible for her.

He still brings up an empty glass I left on the floor during a nappy change four years ago and still tells her about it in front of me, referring to it as "the time Mammy almost killed you".

"I know you think I'm OTT - but I'd rather be OTT than have something awful happen to our kids. I can't see how you don't understand that - we need to keep them safe, so I will do whatever I need to do to do that. I don't understand why you have a go at me for wanting to keep the kids safe'

The "something awful" that will happen if this continues is that they grow up as anxious as he is, or probably worse. Does he really want that future for them?

[quote Eyes99]@sillysmiles - the issue is there is practical implications as he can't drive (we do live near a train station but not v. convenient) so that limits what they could do. For example, I'm going a funeral in a couple of weeks and he has got his mum to come round to 'help with driving'. But we both know it's because he feels overwhelmed/exhausted by it.

But a lot of people I've spoke to in real life says I need to go back into the office/go on a night out/go shopping and just leave him to it.[/quote]
Hmmmm.... I'd be inclined to think that for one normal day, they don't need to go very far, or if he wants to take them places, he does what many other people and work it out!

I honestly don't know what the solution is, but I don't think you are the unreasonable one here. But the problem is I suspect that while his behaviour is manipulative and controlling he is not logically thinking "if I do this it will control Eyes" But just because it is unconscious doesn't make it any easier for you, and possibly makes it harder for you to deal with.
You need to start making sure you have real life support - family/friends/ your own GP - even his mum. Other people must be able to see he is not coping?
Best of luck, it sounds like a shit way to be living, to constantly be criticised and to have someone constantly suggest you don't care about the safety of your kids.

I think he needs to chill out, the home isn't a concentration camp, it was an accident. The child took the opportunity to explore and they did. I think he's being a bit unkind.
Make sure you berate and micro-manage his parenting, see how he likes it.

Personally, I managed this exploratory age, let them both go up and down supervised, then eventually unsupervised.

I think it was @mathanxiety who suggested earlier that some of his anger may be because he blames you for the loss of the twins. It would explain his seeming constant resentment towards you.

BTW

I think he sounds awful, how dare he reprimand you like that and shout about the kids dying in front of the kids. Very damaging. My partner had anxiety which manifested in passive aggressive and slightly controlling behaviour before he sought help for it and it bled into every area of our lives. I eventually left and thankfully he got himself treatment and we got back together but it was a truly horrible way to live at its worst.

Yes, the thing is it does not matter what is behind controlling and manipulative behaviour, it is still controlling and manipulative to the person on the receiving end.
On some level he knows this is not reasonable. Why make the ‘don’t divorce me, I could not cope’ comment if not because he knows you would have grounds and he is emotionally manipulating you to feel indispensable to his well-being (whilst at the same time, constantly doing you down). Exhausting.

My stair gates were long gone at 2.5. They terrify me.

Teach your child to safely navigate the stairs both up and down from the very beginning.

Your husband is being very ott.

Despite you thinking that I am in denial of reality (i.e. refusing to accept the 'wisdom' of your opinion), you can see a trend on this thread for some people to think that the OPs response was minimising and that this causes the DP to need to state his concerns in an exaggerated form. I stand by my opinion that it is unacceptable to write off everything the DP says because of his anxiety. I think that it disablist and hugely unpleasant TBH. Mentally unwell people can still have valid points and I personally am not comfortable putting everything they do down to their mental ill health.
@Whatiswrongwithmyknee
You are still completely wrong, and the show of concern for people with MH issues doesn't sit right with me, with your implication that I don't care, or I am downright disablist.

It doesn't help people suffering from anxiety at the level this man is suffering to pander to him. That won't make the crippling anxiety go away. All it will accomplish is that his anxiety will affect the children and possibly wreck his marriage.

It is not disablist to suggest that someone with a broken leg go to A&E and get it set and in a cast. It is not disablist to state that the completely selective concern over the child's safety, the shouting in the child's presence, the references to catastrophe and death are not signs of robust mental health, and again I question your motives in continuing to deny that this man has a problem and lay the blame for the interaction the OP and her H had on the OP.

Anxiety that has reached such a level that the H is not aware or is refusing to acknowledge how he is coming across or the damage his shouting and sulking are doing is not going to be assuaged by the OP taking more care about the child's safety. Once the stairgate issue is settled, the anxiety is going to pop up in some other area - additives in food, fluoride in water, 5G phone signals, chemicals in the carpet or the mattresses or the painted feature wall, and on and on and on.

Yes, many dangers exist out there, and in the home. No, they are not all worth losing sleep over or going to any trouble to avoid. They are not worth shouting at your wife about or putting your marriage in jeopardy.

I strongly suggest you educate yourself on the topic of anxiety.

Thays so abusive. His anxiety isn't your fault.
We never even had a stair gate for either child. And in both houses we had two flights of stairs. The only incident we've ever had was when my son was 4 he tripped over his foot and fell down an entire flight of stairs... but he was completely unharmed even tho they were wooden stairs and quite steep!
I actually think staircases are a bit of a con... not always obv, sometimes they are necessary especially with crawling babies.
But my two were fully able to walk up and down stairs with no incident at 2.5 years old. I think by that age stair Gates actually end up posing more of a danger as kids often try and climb on them etc... and its a much sharper fall from a stairgate even at the bottom of the stairs.. I personally think its safer to allow you children to learn how to safely go up and down stairs.
So basically I think your husband is very wrong... of course if you agreed to use a stairgate together then you should try and do that but this was an accident and it wasnt really that dangerous... no one was hurt nor really in that much danger of being hurt
And you know what even if your child had been hurt it still wouldn't have merited your husband blaming you and shouting at you that way because it was an accident and these things happen.

He really needs to take responsibility for his own anxiety and get proper professional help.

Id also add its probably far more damaging ti your child to grow up around their father shouting at their mother and their mother being in edge all the time trying not to set him off.. than it is to climb up the stairs once

"I know you think I'm OTT - but I'd rather be OTT than have something awful happen to our kids. I can't see how you don't understand that - we need to keep them safe, so I will do whatever I need to do to do that. I don't understand why you have a go at me for wanting to keep the kids safe"

@Eyes99
He is a very angry man.
You need to stop tiptoeing around him and stop trying to control the level of anxiety.

You are falling into the trap of co-dependency when you talk of mitigating his cyclical bad spells. He is a grown adult and he is responsible for maintaining his own equilibrium. Please get a hold of books on co-dependency and start letting their lessons sink in.

You need to insist instead that he gets the help he needs to return to full time work. If the children must be in nursery because he is in effect self medicating with exercise, walks, etc, then he is costing you all money, and if he cannot cope with the children on his own, his anxiety is depriving them of a relationship with him.

You need to insist that he deals with whatever trauma he experienced in his earlier life, and be upfront with him that the fallout from it is going to wreck the relationship.

Consult a solicitor before you broach any of these topics with him. Know what you can expect from divorce.

Stop trying to discuss the stairgate incident and his OTT response. He has decided he holds the high ground and you don't have any hope of putting a dent in his 'logic'.

You cannot tiptoe around the anger he is displaying toward you.
You need to ask him straight up if he blames you for the miscarriage.

And yet he shouts at me if I slip up in the slightest - he needs you to be perfect because if you’re not the world falls apart. He’s transferred his coping to you because he can’t deal with it but he’s then got no control over what happens because you are a separate autonomous entity. His anger is his reaction to losing control. The more his anxiety spirals the less in control he’ll feel so the more he’ll rely on you. His anxiety will then intensify his reaction to seemingly mundane happenings. He needs professional help to get coping mechanisms and unpick what’s happened to him to make him react how he does. Ironically, he’s not actually helping the children. Yes we all need to be aware of safety etc, but that’s not what this is about. Your DC will not learn how to avoid danger, solve problems, get themselves out of problems and will be scared of trying new things (riding a bike, climbing, new sports, making friends, tryin anything new). That is really bad but the shouting is worse. I cannot fathom how a parent shouting about his DC falling downstairs and cracking his skull open or poisoning himself IN FRONT OF THE CHILD is completely unacceptable. Shouting is a no, shouting graphic chit like that is beyond a no. He has got to get help otherwise he is going to destroy his family. He is not coping and he cannot expect you to cope on his behalf while picking up his slack.

YYY to everything you posted, @Lolapusht.

OP I'm on your side. Yes I think his reactions are wrong. My dad can be like this, I left my water bottle unscrewed once and a little water spilled out and it was just relentless
"Do you always leave the lid off?"
"No it was an accident"
"It could have ruined the couch"
"It was an accident, I'll get it cleaned up"
"That's really careless"
"I'm sorry it was an accident"

Have you tried telling him he's not allowed to yell at you? Can you leave the room every single time he raises his voice? Can you be firmer about his need to see a therapist? I think if you are not getting joy out of the relationship it's ok to leave... I doubt very much he would try for 50-50 custody, and I think it would be unlikely to be awarded with untreated mental health issues?

Have you had a come to Jesus talk with him about his behavior? It's also not ok for him to accuse you of not caring about the kids. Maybe you should suggest a trial separation till he handles his anxiety, it would probably be a big relief to you and the littles.

Im on your side to be honest because my husband is the same and it's a nightmare to live with. He has ocd as does his dad and I know that's where the constant "BE CAREFUL" comes from but it doesn't make it easier to live with. I think you're resentful (fairly) about a lot of other things though. You probably do feel a bit guilty which exacerbates defensiveness (I'm the same, my baby has rolled off the bed a few times on my watch but onto plush carpet). My husband over analyses danger constantly as do his parents. Mine are the opposite. Extremely laissez faire and I'm very relaxed about most danger. He thinks I'm careless. I think hes over the top. It's very hard to find a middle ground so you have my sympathies.