Separation stories: chapter 2

[lemonmeringue85]

@freeatlast2021 I finally did it, start a new thread that is.. not the other thing which I really should now start taking seriously. I absolutely do not want to be next Christmas, where I was this Christmas.
Thankyou for your post, never apologise for the lengthy ones!!

I have no idea how to post the link to this one on the old edition but will try... so, if you're seeing this then I didn't do a bad job!

Welcome to round 2

Good for you @HoneyDaze. Now just onwards and upwards!!

@brightorbleakfuture that sounds so hard. FWIW stick with it. I have rather failed to stick with my decision and feel dammed now to remaining in a marriage to cause less pain to DW. @HoneyDaze that seems to have gone well. I wish you well and hope it is a decision that works for you both.

I posted this at the end of the original thread and I realize now that I really should have posted it here. Hoping this will help people get through. Btw this is @freeatlast2021. I NC as I do want to keep moving on.

*Dear friends, happy 2022! Let this be a year of change for you all!

I have been checking MN through out the holidays but did not feel like posting as I had written plenty already and thought to give some other people a chance to chime in. I guess I needed a little break too. I see that in the meantime, this amazing thread, (thank you @lemonmeringue85 for starting it and please do start a new one as this one is nearing its 1000th post), has attracted many new posters. I would like to welcome the new friends and say, we are happy that you are joining us here, but I am sad at the same time to see how many of us out there are in the same boat. I wish I can reply to each one of your posts, but to save space I will just make a few points (sorry for the long post):

**As women we tend to feel guilty and accept all responsibilities for the breaking of the marriage, but remember, it takes two to tango, so I do not think it is all your fault that the union is not as strong as you want it to be. If your husbands were indeed amazing human beings you would not want to separate from them, would you. Are they really so amazing? Do they share responsibilities in the house? Do they tell you they love you? Do they show you they love you? Do they listen, really listen to you? Do they take you out? Do they buy you flowers, remember your anniversary? Do they respect and appreciate you? Do they appreciate your family? Ask yourself these questions and see where you land.

**Divorce by itself does not have to be harmful to the children. It is not the end of anything, it is just a new beginning. If parents continue to be loving and supporting to the kids and work together having the kids wellbeing in mind, everything should be ok. I know that some kids do take it harder than others as we are all different, but they mostly pick up on your own emotions and so it is important that you are ok with all of it, do not look at it as devastating and do not blame yourself for the breakage. These things happen you know, not every marriage is destined to last forever and to be honest, a lot of those that do are not that great. People are often miserable, and stay married for all the wrong reasons.

**Remember, it will get worse before it gets better. This period until you tell your partners that you want to end your marriage and the period after until they or you move out will be very hard. You will feel sick, you will feel anxious, it may feel unbearable, but once it is over you will feel like a whole new person. I once described this process of separation as a childbirth, in one of my posts and it is true. The idea of separation is like a child in your womb, once it is planted it starts to grow and eventually it has to be “born”, it has to come out and come out it will. Just like a childbirth, the process will be painful and almost unbearable, but once it is out you will feel a tremendous relief and almost immediately you will be able to move on and towards the better life for you and everyone around you, especially your children.

I wish I can be there in RL for you, to hold you hand, to give you a hug, I know I really needed this as I did not have a lot of support either, but being on MN helped me immensely, reading other people’s posts and posting myself helped me move things forward. I hope.. I KNOW you will get there, just keep moving in the right direction, stay strong, be brave and trust that all will be well. You CAN do this. Just remember you deserve to be happy.*

@lemonmeringue85 how are you doing?

@HoneyDaze

Well it’s done. Again. But properly this time! We’ve had another talk and it was much more focussed on how we move forward separately, rather than doing what we’ve done before, which is me saying how I feel (that I just don’t feel the same and feel that we’re just living as housemates) and then him pretending it didn’t happen and life carrying on as normal. But this is it now, we have agreed to separate and will stay in our home for a little while as our daughter has big exams coming up and we don’t want to unsettle her with a move. But we’ll have separate bedrooms. We’ll tell the DC next week when they are off school as they’ll notice when we are in different rooms. We’re getting on well though, he’s respecting boundaries now and he has also taken his wedding ring off. We both said we want to be good friends going forward and I really hope we can do that.

I feel such a huge sense of relief now things have progressed! But still very sad at the same time as this isn’t what I had pictured happening all those years ago when we got married.

Now I have to shop for some furniture for my new bedroom!

I've read a few of your earlier responses and can relate so much to the "having the chat but then instantly regretting it and feeling fear" thing. I think because in my mind it should be a mutual decision, it feels too unfair for me to make such a big decision for all of us 😕 Well done though for doing what's best for you and that you're feeling some relief. Hope it's onwards and upwards from here!

@movingon2022 ah it's @freeatlast2021. How have you been getting on?

@Millshake01 I am doing well, thank you. For a while it was going great, but last couple of months have been strange. Holidays always seem to unhinge me a little especially since a few years ago I lost both my parents. This year, some other stuff was happening around me I had no control over so I felt like I was losing balance. I also stopped doing things that keep me stable and rooted like meditating, yoga and counseling. I am starting to go back into my routine now so hopefully this will help.

Otherwise, I really enjoy my freedom and independence. Money is tight sure, but at least I do not have to answer to anyone, how much I spend and what I buy. I really enjoy my mornings. Getting up early, hopefully to meditate some and then take my dog out for a walk. After I make a cup of coffee and enjoy the peace and quiet, plan my day. I love coming back home and not having to think if the grump will ruin my good mood with unnecessary comment about random stuff. My most favorite part of the day is going to bed. I dressed up my bedroom really nice and I love nothing more then to slide under the sheets wearing my, not so sexy, woolen socks and a hand knit sweater over my pajamas, read a book and finally snuggle with my extra warm blankie not thinking about having to have sex I really was not in the mood for.

The April is approaching very fast and I have to say I feel a bit anxious about it as it will be a year after our separation and I will be able to apply for divorce. No matter how much I want this and am happy to be separated, divorce still fills me with dread, but I will cross that bridge when I get there.

How about you? Any change? I hope you are doing well.

@movingon2022 I'm sorry to hear you have lost both parents. That's hard.
Sounds like you have definitely made the right decision. I'm glad to hear you are happy. The situation is still the same here. Living together but separated. I'm not sure what his plans are. But his father has recently been taken into hospital so he has a lot going on at the moment so I'm not pushing it.
We are leading separate lives. Only speak when we have to etc. do our own things. I'm trying to get some money together so that when he does leave I will be okish for bills. I'm hoping to get more hours at work, if this happens then I will be financially secure. Fingers crossed.

Great thread.

I’m in the middle of it all at the moment, 4 months since I left. Me and ex were getting along ok on the surface - still loving to each other, still had affection with lots of hugs and kisses and still had sex occasionally (not loads, maybe once or twice a month).

However, below the surface it got toxic. I think she was in the position a lot of you are in - she just didn’t fancy me that much and we were heading towards being mates rather than lovers. We lead pretty separate lives, she’d be out loads with her mates and I’d fallen into the one that stayed at home with the kids (11,10,8 and 5). I found it hard to deal with the guilt I felt over my behaviour in the first 4 or 5 years of our relationship and the lack of any sexual interest from her. One day it got too much for me and I left. She never asked me to come back.

So I moved out, initially into my parents, then a shared house. Was there until Christmas but had to leave cos of a horrible bully. Back to my parents and that’s where I am now.

So many ups and downs it’s unbelievable. Christmas was the worst and I called her New Years to ask to get back together. She said no and it was from that point on I accepted it. It’s hard work, I still love her, however it’s slowly dawning on me that separating might not be the worst thing. Ive started therapy and it’s really helped me unravel all the toxic feelings that were always there in our relationship. As someone here pointed out - it takes 2 to tango and we both contributed to the situation we were in. It’s even taught me to stand up to her. I’ve got no idea what kind of headspace she’s in or what she thinks about us - neither of us wants to go into those details as it’s just not the right time and would only cause heartache. We’re civil and occasionally chatty but not going to take a while before we can be mates again which is fine. I think we’ll get there but not just yet. Importantly, I think, we’ve never bitched and argued about it all.

I’m buying a new place 5mins away and I’m genuinely excited to be living in my own place with the kids (she’s accepted 50/50 without argument although we still need to sort the details). After 4 months living away from my kids without a house to call my own it’s like a light at the end of the tunnel. I’m seeing someone new and it’s a revelation to be with someone who genuinely likes being out with me and actually finds me attractive! Not sure that novelty will wear off anytime soon - it’s been years since anyone’s looked at me in that way. I’ve got closer to my mum throughout all this which is also a nice bonus.

I still have a yearning for my ex and the past family life we had but I know that will fade. I’m seeing the kids 3 or 4 times a week and they are handling it great. Took them away for the weekend last week and it was as if nothing had changed which was so reassuring and lovely. They’re all excited about the new house and I have no worries with them. Interestingly, throughout all of this I’ve worried about them but never worried about my relationship with them as we’re all pretty secure with each other which we is great.

Rambling now but I just wanted to say to those that are struggling to tell you partners you want to leave…just do it, it’s kinder than hanging on. Deep down they know you don’t want to be with them and that hurts. They will survive without you! Kids will be fine as long as you’re both there for them and know they are loved. Things change but there’s nothing wrong with that.

@Another2022 well done to you for moving on. Buying a home for yourself and the kids, that's nice to look forward to. A new start.
What do you feel guilty about for the 4-5 years? Was it bad? And she can't forget??
This is my issue. STBX was a very heavy drinker. Was very nasty and verbally abusive when he came back drunk. This went on for years & years.
As I got older, it was like a light switched on and I realised I actually do not have to put up with this!
He wasn't all bad, he can be nice and his humour is something else (he's very funny) but the horrendous episodes of him being verbally abusive whilst drunk, and the next day saying I did nothing wrong, manipulating the situation with narcissistic traits, it's not until I got older I started see him a different light. Doing lots of reading I am finally working him out. Deep down he's a very unhappy man and he's taking it out on me and his children. But we have now got to the point of finally him realising that the marriage is done. After 2 years! He finally realises this is it. So now I wait for him to decide where he is going and when he's going.
Anyway I wish you all the best for your new home 🏡

@Millshake01 I was controlling and verbally abusive and generally hard to live with. ‘Deep down he's a very unhappy man and he's taking it out on me and his children. ’ - that was me. I worked it out and sorted myself out though and stopped it. I do think you’re right and it changed the way she looked at me. I went to far the other way and became to worried about being that guy again which all became part of the toxicity. I think she became so hyper alert to it too and that affected things too. Don’t blame her.

Glad you’re getting out of it and can see it for what it is. Doesn’t make it any easier though - my heart goes out to you all that are separated but living together, must be so stressful. I hope he sorts himself out soon and you get a peaceful life in the end.

@Another2022 that is so reassuring to hear about your children. I’d be grateful for any tips on how to help them handle the transition well as we have not yet told the kids. Sadly we have to sell the house so their lives will be very disrupted.

@Mumof3confused Me moving out straight away so they haven’t had to see all the high emotions, at least from me not sure about their mum, has helped I think. Also because I went immediately they’ve seen no arguments because although there’s been a few ‘discussions’ we have had the space to deal with it all!

I’ve been around consistently throughout. A couple of night a week she goes out in the evenings for a hobby and isn’t back til late so I go over and spend the evenings with them, I’ve taken them on a short holiday and to go stay with family etc. Also, when she wants to stay out at the weekend I look after them usually at hers. My relationship with the kids always was solid though so it’s fairly easy to carry on. They’ve also seen the new house and we’ve made kids of plans for their rooms and the rest of it so they know they’re gonna live with me again.

Selling the house can’t be easy. We’re lucky they’ll not have to deal with that (though I constantly worry about my ex suddenly changing her mind and deciding to move and wreck the plans we’ve agreed to).

Hello, everyone, and @movingon2022 special thanks for your very helpful posts! I hope you are getting back into the groove...

I posted a couple of months ago on the previous thread, and like many I can't believe I'm still in the same position. I was 100% sure that I was leaving my very unhappy marriage behind, but H has gone through some introspecting, has really tried hard to make some changes, and asked to work on building intimacy and seeing what happens because we can't apply for divorce until we've been separated for over six months anyway..

Actually @Millshake01 your description really resonated with me:

^^very nasty and verbally abusive when he came back drunk. This went on for years & years.
As I got older, it was like a light switched on and I realised I actually do not have to put up with this!
He wasn't all bad, he can be nice and his humour is something else (he's very funny)^

H never as long as I've known him(nearly 20 years) got drunk, but I think he has a mental health issue, where he can explode on the spot and he has no control over his anger, and it definitely got worse and worse over the years with me (but was bad enough even in his friendships and work relationships to create issues too). When he did get angry, he also would get verbally abusive and just would think it's fine to shout at me, in front of the children as well, and it took me years too to realise I didn't have to live like this! He always suggested a divorce when he was pissed off, from the second year of marriage, which always terrified me and I tried my best to keep the peace.

In the end I did ask to leave three years ago, and he changed his behaviour A LOT, but in the end in the last 2+ years I haven't had any hugs, warmth, warm conversations, pet names, time together etc. On paper I was married, but was terribly, incredibly lonely and also felt very unwanted because we nearly never had sex.

I initiated separation a couple of more times in the last year, my older DC moved out and I finally had my own bedroom, but each time I'd be determined to move on H would become really interersted, and try to show me some attention, and we definitely spent more time together than in years previously trying to talk through our relationship.

And he gave me a Christmas present (first time in years and very thoughtful, however forgot about my birthday before that, I was away and we were "separated" properly and he just ranted at me at length on that day :( (anyway he usually didn't give me birthday presents)

Anyway, in spite of his best efforts he does explode at me occasionally, he can't help raising his voice and being horribly disrespectful.

I hate it and don't want to live like this, but nowadays he always really regrets it afterwards and sincerely apologises. I know he's not lying and I'm pretty sure it's a mental health issue (something very similar happened in his grandparents family) but knowing it it doesn't make life much easier or pleasant.

He can make me laugh, he is a good dad, and these days we can have (very) occasional sexy sex, but our world view is mostly vastly different and also he's incredibly worried (and as a result controlling) about money, even after the last separation attempt we completely separated our finances.

I just see our future together as mostly my compromise, he's kind of happy to live as we lived for years (when I just felt that I had to push myself into a tiny box to fit the life he finds good enough). Though massive amounts of money would solve a lot of our relationship problems and unhappiness, and I've heard somewhere that relationship problems which can be solved with money are not real problems...

We'd have to sell the house, which I love, and it would be a big uprooting for the kids, and financial downgrade for both of us, we can just about afford one household, but I just feel so trapped. Overall he's one of the most negative people I've ever met and even if he rants far less about everything nowadays I don't think he'd ever fundamentally change....

Sex situation is confusing for me too, has anyone broken up while still fancying each other? I feel like if I found the idea of sex with him repellent I'd probably be long gone, but it is nice and can be hot when it happens, the problem is in the last 4-5 years it happened about 10 times less than I would have liked to. Basically my sex drive stays more or less constant, and his is affected by everything and anything.

I've often have felt either rejected or downright sex starved during most of our marriage (17 years). Only during our proper separation I discovered for myself that being completely celibate is actually easier than doing it once every 1-2 months. I'm mid 40s and I feel sorry for myself a bit that I spent so many years with nowhere near enough physical intimacy (and considering when he's in a bad mood, which has been a lot of the time, he doesn't hug/kiss etc outside sex, that was my only chance of physical touch at all)

In spite of all this the idea of selling up, finding somewhere new to live, setting up a new life feels painful too. As soon as there is some effort on his side I find it very difficult to pull the trigger.

@lemonmeringue85
any news from you? I hope you are ok.

@Another2022 Nice post from you and well done. It seems that you are handling the situation in the best possible way. I am glad your kids are taking it well too. I strongly believe that kids look at their parents for clues and so if you are all frustrated, fighting with each other, catastrophizing the situation, showing emotional instability they will be taking it the same way. I hope that you talked to a solicitor regarding purchasing a new place right now since you guys do not have a separation agreement, I do not know how this will affect division of assets later on.

@Millshake01 I can see that you are at the point where you accept your marriage is over, but why are you waiting for your husband to make the decision, why cannot you take things in your hands and start moving forward? I am only asking because it seems that many people, especially men, tend to drag things forever, accepting the situation as it is rather then doing something about it. Accepting the status quo. You do not want that, right? You want to get things going so that you can get out of the situation and start building your new life. I wish you all the best. Keep posting.

@hereyougoagain Nothing wrong in giving yourself another chance if you think that things may get better. Once you start things moving there is no going back (well, there is of course, always, but you know what I mean) and you do not want to be thinking you did not do everything you could, right? The problem is, I have to say, I do not believe that people can change. I think that a person can change their behavior, for example you can make them clean after themselves, or get up early in the morning or staff like that, but their personality… I do not think so. You cannot make someone be nice if they are not. You cannot make them be kind and loving and neither can they themselves because this is not in their nature and cannot be learnt. I hope that you solve this situation sooner rather then later and you move on with your life. Hugs.

Hi there

I've been around and been reading your posts still, but for some reason didn't know how to get across what was happening with me and how much of a mess I feel like I'm in.

I started the original thread so long ago now, and was so unhappy, crippled with anxiety and not very present with my children and never actually thought I'd still be in this situation today. Yet here I am. What the hell is wrong with me?

I overthink everything, and due to years of engrained emotional abuse throughout childhood, feel guilty for every bloody decision I make that is the nest decision for me. I cannot myself or my happiness first and feel sick at the thought of separating with my H because I simply don't want to cause him pain.

Things are strained. We aren't intimate, I don't show much affection because I'm simply not attracted to him like I was. We've both changed over the 16 years we've been together, and remain on different pages when it comes to our views of raising the children and managing their often challenging behaviour.

I'm annoyed at myself that I don't have a more positive progress update.. I'm still scared to leap and I'm not sure how I get the courage and believe in myself to take that first step.

It's been so reassuring reading everyone's posts. Welcome to the newcomers, I hope this thread has been a positive platform for you all and wish everyone the absolute best!

@movingon2022 as always, I find you inspiring and your words never fail to keep popping into my head when I feel like I'm just losing at life. I hope you're well and, most importantly, happy xx

@lemonmeringue85 It is so good to hear from you, I started to get a bit worried. I am sorry that you feel like you are stuck in one place and cannot move, but do not worry, I am sure that your time will come. There will be a moment when you will suddenly get the courage and just do it. You do have to help it a long a little, so if you are not doing it already I strongly suggest you do some counseling if at all possible. It most definitely helped me clear my head and make a move. Also, it helped me being on MN, posting and reading other people's posts, and as you can see I still am hovering; still need your guys' support and hand hold. Sending you lots of love across the ocean.

@lemonmeringue85 Sorry to hear that. As @movingon2022 says; you will get to a place where you can do it eventually. We all do things differently and if you’re not quite ready yet then that’s ok cos it’s your timeline nobody else’s.

@hereyougoagain I think my wife felt like this towards me in the end. We still had good sex (well I think it was for her, was for me) once or twice a month but I don’t think I was the man she wanted me to be for a long time even though I’d improved myself.

My situ is plodding on, sent off the contract for the new place Friday so hopefully will have it ready n a month or so. Ex is being hard on me at the moment cos she’s struggling with the kids and thinks I’m not doing enough. I see them three weekday evenings where I do bedtimes and clean for two of those nights, most Saturdays during the day and Sunday evenings for bedtimes again. I can’t have them overnight much as my dad has severe mental health issues. When she goes away I’m always there to look after them but none of it is enough. I get it though, and when I can I’ll look after the kids for at least half the time and more if she’d like. I love being with them and hate having spent so long not living with them.

We’re both seeing other people but we never talk about it which suits me as I really don’t want to know, however I think she’s only really just twigged I’ve met someone so might be coming to terms with that. I dunno, she just seems really bitter at the moment so I’m treading carefully and trying to be as nice as possible without allowing her to take the piss. Hopefully we’ll get past it!

As an aside, seeing someone who is really into you after years of indifference and thousands of little put downs is incredible. I’d started to think of myself as a weirdo that nobody would even glance at or want to get to know, turns out Im actually just a normal guy! There is life after divorce….it’s just a struggle getting there!

@Another2022

As an aside, seeing someone who is really into you after years of indifference and thousands of little put downs is incredible. I’d started to think of myself as a weirdo that nobody would even glance at or want to get to know, turns out Im actually just a normal guy! There is life after divorce….it’s just a struggle getting there!

That's what I dream of...yesterday I lost hope again a little and started pushing towards separation and my H told me that if I leave the only person who realistically would want to live with me long term is a paedophile 😨 attracted by the fact that I have young children.

I do sometimes wonder if my H is mentally ill because the things he comes up with are outside of even "regular" verbal abuse. I feel too ashamed to share with anyone the sort of stuff he comes out with sometimes...He always thinks it's ok if he apologises afterwards and says he was "frustrated", like it can excuse anything...

@hereyougoagain I am so sorry to hear what you are going through, your husband does sound awful. If he does have mental illness he should be taking care of it and as far as I can see he is not. I strongly suggest you start making exit plan. You do not have to "talk" to him about it at all. When you decided that this is what you want to do, you just "tell"him. Good luck and keep posting.

@movingon2022,

Thanks for your support, I do wonder if he would agree to go and see a doctor, he mentioned before that even though he himself feels he could use some mental health support and potentially medication, he is loathe to go and see a doctor because he is worried it would be on file and if we were to split up it could be used by me against him and affect his rights towards the kids 😐

Confusingly, he can be awful and I can feel a bit sorry for myself, but then he could be really lovely and attentive and funny, and also sometimes I feel sorry for him, like when without his glasses he can't fit the key in the keyhole and misses by so much it is actually painful to watch realising how bad his eyesight actually is.
Though as a general thing I don't think people should stay with anyone out of pity, I don't think it's good for the person you don't leave if you only do it feeling sorry for them!

@movingon2022

Do you feel like initially, at least in the first years of marriage your ex DH was the love of your life? And if anyone else is reading, did you all get married thinking it was the love of your life, or you had doubts at the point of marriage?

Because I never had that feeling with H, that he was the love of my life, and I wonder if it was the crucial mistake, that when the counselors say things like what attracted you to him in the first place there's not that much to cling on to...things which attracted me disappeared nearly immediately as soon as we married. He tried hard to be something he wasn't for long enough to get me to agree to marry him, and then dropped it all with relief.

I felt that it was the right thing to do, to marry him (partly because of my religious beliefs at the time) but I also was optmistic in spite of niggling doubts and believed we could make it work.

I kind of had to talk myself into it, and then gradually got used to a lot of misery, but sometimes I still can't shake off the hope that we can grow what we have into something successful, certainly right now, in spite of the stuff he comes out with, it's way better when it used to be, for me at least it was a completely co-dependent relationship where the quality of my life was primarily dependent on his moods. :(

Now I am a free person as much as I could be while married, and he is actually trying the best he can to keep this marriage alive...

But I agree with you @movingon2022 that a tiger can't change his stripes. For him to stop being the way he is would be the same as for a hard core drinker to stop drinking. But I do know of two cases where that happened (with drinkers, who were family men and how it imporved their family life). It was nothing short of a miracle.

So esp when things get better I somehow manage to let go of all the bad and crazy stuff and think what if there's a chance of a miracle and if I give up I never find out? On the other hand now I'm more or less at peace with the idea that if a miracle doesn't happen I have another life waiting for me which would be much better anyway.

@lemonmeringue85

Definitely you shouldn't feel guilty that you are still in the same place! I've had the idea of the separation brewing for years, first the kids were too small to even contemplate it, then I just didn't feel enough strength and faith in my future by myself, not part as a family unit, and I don't think I'd have ever managed to consider it seriously without therapy.
It certainly improved my quality of life a lot even still being a part of this marriage, so I'd recommend it (esp not traditional therapy but anyone who uses less conventional and quicker methods of cutting straight to the point, changing ingrained beliefs about yourself and life etc)

Anyway, there could be loads of reasons why you still don't feel ready to split up, but from my experience somehow, however miserable you are, your brain keeps you where you are because it perceives it as "better" than somewhere else.
Even if the reason is that your misery is safe and familiar for your brain whose job is to keep you alive (you are miserable, but you are alive) and the unknown is just that, it might be better, but it might be not as safe and familiar.

By the way, I highly recommend Brooke Castillo podcasts (she's an American life coach and I don't agree with everything she says, but she was my lifeline which brought me to therapy in the end and I still enjoy listening to her)

Anyway, please don't feel that you need to apologise for being stuck! there would be people reading this thread who probably started thinking of separating years before you started the thread and nowhere near leaving yet...you don't owe to anyone to hurry or even separate at all. The only thing I'd say that if it's all for the sake of not upsetting your DH, it's not a good life for him if you are sacrificing your own happiness to buy his, and actually it's an illusion he'd be that unhappy because potentially you are robbing him of a chance of being with someone who actually would love him and be excited at his presence, look at @Another2022's story!