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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:43

I should probably also have mentioned that I tried to ring SIL after I spoke to DD1. He didn't answer, he never does, so I left a short pleasant message saying that I was very pleased to hear that they were enjoying Ireland and that I would like to have chat with him sometime, whenever it was convenient to him, if he could let me know. I promise it was pleasant! He hasn't got back to me, but I wasn't really expecting him to and maybe it's just as well. I was hoping to have a reasonable conversation, but that's probably unrealistic anyway.

OP posts:
Lemonlemon88 · 13/12/2021 00:48

I have read several of your threads and honestly i think you need to detach as much as possible. These people just take take take from you on their terms. Send your grandchildren presents, speak to your daughter once or twice a year, and focus on your other children so you are not constantly caught in this emotional turmoil, especially when you are coping with the loss of your DH.

timeisnotaline · 13/12/2021 00:48

You poor thing. I don’t know what you can do- I half think you should just go low/no contact but of course if you’re worried about your daughter giving birth that may be just impossible (my dc are very young still). It is hard to see how you can ever get further here than walking on eggshells and taking the crumbs they will hand out though.

JacquelineCarlyle · 13/12/2021 00:51

@Lemonlemon88

I have read several of your threads and honestly i think you need to detach as much as possible. These people just take take take from you on their terms. Send your grandchildren presents, speak to your daughter once or twice a year, and focus on your other children so you are not constantly caught in this emotional turmoil, especially when you are coping with the loss of your DH.
Completely agree with this.
Cloudfrost · 13/12/2021 00:57

I remember your previous post and since then I ve often thought about you and wondered if things improved.I never posted on the thread, but I just wanted to say how sorry I am for your loss and how hard life has been for you.
With regards to you DD and SIL, unfortunately and I know how painful this is to hear,but like many people adviced before,it's a situation you can't win. Nothing you do will ever be good enough,even if you could turn time back and "undid" the incident, SIL would just find another stick to beat you with. Did you end up helping them financially with the Ireland purchase?
I am gonna assume the current change in behaviour towards you is related to the purchase in one wayor another.u are either punished for not being supportive enough/ contributing or you contributed and SIL doesn't need Ur help anymore so he needs to show u who is the boss

gsaoej · 13/12/2021 01:04

Very strange behaviour to whinge about the hamper. All they needed to say was thanks. Honestly I would focus on your other family and leave dd1 and her family alone. But first I’d send dd1 a message saying that you hope the birth goes well and that you’ll wait for her to contact you to avoid bothering her at an inconvenient time. If she wants to contact you, she will. If not, you have other family who care about you.

And ridiculous of them to get difficult about you opening 10k account/ISA for the kids.

Some people make everything difficult and are always spoiling for a row. Either your dd1 or sil or both of them seem to be like this.

Wombat69 · 13/12/2021 01:04

Far too much drama, leave them get on with their lives.

Corbally · 13/12/2021 01:15

@Lemonlemon88

I have read several of your threads and honestly i think you need to detach as much as possible. These people just take take take from you on their terms. Send your grandchildren presents, speak to your daughter once or twice a year, and focus on your other children so you are not constantly caught in this emotional turmoil, especially when you are coping with the loss of your DH.
Agreed. I’ve read your other threads too. It’s painful to read your account of tiptoeing around your DD, and her pandering to her controlling DH. I would make sure she knows your door is always open and withdraw for your own MH, restricting myself to birthday and Christmas presents for the children. This relationship isn’t doing you any good.
Chisandbiscuits · 13/12/2021 01:20

I've read several of your threads now but never commented before. I am truly sorry about the loss of your husband, that must have been a terrible blow. I think you need to step away from all this now, you've given it your all but you are in an abusive relationship with your daughter where she abuses YOU. Whether your son-in-law is an abuser or not she chooses to go along with it and has been unspeakably cruel to you and your husband for no reason at all that I can tell. You are clearly a loving mum as you have two other daughters that love and care for you. Your DD1 and son-in-law, on the other hand, seem to be constantly involved in strife with just about everyone they come into contact with, and that tells me everything. Life shouldn't be this hard and when it is there is something wrong. Please just stop dancing to their tune, accept you may never have a proper relationship with your grandchildren and with DD1 in the future and enjoy the daughters who actually want to spend time with you. Otherwise you will be stuck in a cycle of emotional and psychological torture that you can never escape from. Life is sometimes difficult and complicated and it's hard to accept you don't have a perfect family but you can't mend dysfunction on your own and your daughter seemingly doesn't want to, she gets something out of treating you this way. I know this is hard to come to terms with but you need accept it and try to find a way to move on. I am so sorry you've had to deal with this and this advice is heartfelt and comes from a genuine place however harsh it might sound.

ButtonMoonLoon · 13/12/2021 01:26

Well being honest I think your daughter and SIL sound awful!
You come across as kind, thoughtful and sensitive, and in some ways I think you’re tiptoeing around them more than they deserve.
Spend time with the daughters who appreciate you just as you are.
Do as people said above, continue the links to your Grandchildren but take a step back from your daughter and SIL. I’d withdraw completely and wait for them to contact you tbh.
She may well be in a controlling relationship, and, as hard as that is, that does not give her the right to use you as an emotional punchbag.

PyongyangKipperbang · 13/12/2021 01:26

He is abusive and she hasnt cottoned on yet. But your tiptoeing isnt helping because it is actually confirming to her that she should do what he wants as thats ok.

Standing up and saying "You know what? This isnt ok. What he demands isnt ok and I will no longer accept it. I have only done it this long because I love and am worried about you. I will always be here for you and the door will always be open. Ask for help and it will be given. " And then distance.

She will come back, it may take a while but she will.

oakleaffy · 13/12/2021 01:37

@Chopinandchampagne
so sorry that you are suffering like this.
Your DD1 and her husband sound like a right pair of whinge~buckets, and you stepping on eggshells around them will just make things worse.
they sound like a not very pleasant manipulative couple to be so 'Controlling'.
It will be interesting to se if they make a go of it living in Ireland, or wether they'll estrange locals as well.
It wouldn't be surprising if they did.

At least you have other children ..

Rachie1973 · 13/12/2021 01:44

I’ve read your other threads, and under any other circumstances I’d say your DD sounds like a brat. However I think that she really is under your SILs spell.

I’d withdraw a little to protect yourself, you’ve had so much to cope with that you need to wrap yourself in some cotton wool for a while xxx

PyongyangKipperbang · 13/12/2021 01:57

At least you have other children ..

Like its that transactional! I have 6 kids, one is being an utter bollocks at the moment. He is 16 so I am waiting it out but that doesnt mean that I will just put my time and love into the other 5 and ignore him...it doesnt work like that. In fact if anything you love the ones who are being arseholes more because you can see where it is coming from.

I do think that the OP should distance from the DD and her H for her own MH and to make the point that what they are doing is not ok, but that doesnt mean that she should write off her daughter on the basis that "I have other kids".

oakleaffy · 13/12/2021 02:00

@Rachie1973

I’ve read your other threads, and under any other circumstances I’d say your DD sounds like a brat. However I think that she really is under your SILs spell.

I’d withdraw a little to protect yourself, you’ve had so much to cope with that you need to wrap yourself in some cotton wool for a while xxx

Agreed.. Reminds me of those 'Hippies' years ago who disliked 'Society' but always had their hands out from others. A user and a cadger.

OP, please look after yourself.

HollowTalk · 13/12/2021 02:01

I have often thought about you. I think your daughter is under her husband's spell and she abuses you in order to please him. I know how hard that must be to hear.

Money is always at the root of their issues. They don't want to work, do they? It wouldn't surprise me if money is not the solution to this particular argument so that you can see the new baby if you cough up some money.

I'm sure your daughter was perfectly lovely when she was younger but she is incredibly abusive now. I would prefer a punch in the face to the way she treats you. I really do think you have to go very low contact with him and her. I was wondering what would happen if he died and whether she would ever return to normal but you know I don't think I would be able to trust her afterwards.

Listen to what your other daughters say. Keep yourself safe, financially and emotionally.

FrostyFruit · 13/12/2021 02:05

I have read some of your previous threads but haven't commented before so forgive me if anything like this has been mentioned before but I would be sending her a message along the lines of "If you don't want me to be part of your family, I will be cutting you out of my will and leaving everything to your sisters". I know this sounds incredibly harsh and munipulative but I can almost guarentee greedy SIL will be pushing her to make amends with you if he thinks he won't be able to benefit when you pass. Honestly what do you have to lose at this point. Also I am very sorry about your DHs passing, he sounds like he was a lovely man.

tenredthings · 13/12/2021 02:20

This sounds really upsetting for you. Her husband sounds moody and controlling. She's blaming you for his abusive behavior, maybe as a way of normalizing and denying to herself that her DH is a dick. Her DH is being abusive by actively stopping her from having a good relationship with her family. Criticising the hamper, which is just rude and ungrateful, seems like just another way to blame you and not him.

Let her know you love her but withdraw a bit to protect yourself.

Aquamarine1029 · 13/12/2021 02:30

You can forget about ever having a good relationship with that prick SIL of yours. It will never, ever happen. If he gets friendly with you, he loses control of your daughter, and he won't allow that to happen, not as long as he can keep her under his thumb.

I'd take a massive step back from both of them. Hopefully, one day, your daughter will wake up and realise she's in a toxic, controlling marriage.

ivykaty44 · 13/12/2021 02:34

i think you need to detach as much as possible. These people just take take take from you on their terms. Send your grandchildren presents, speak to your daughter once or twice a year, and focus on your other children so you are not constantly caught in this emotional turmoil, especially when you are coping with the loss of your DH.

This ^

Unfortunately your SinL sucks the life out of everything

Your dd1?is behaving like a spoilt child

Detach yourself for your own sanity

Send money for the children and vouchers for the adults - saves the bother of getting presents to be nick picked over & critiqued

Onthemaintrunkline · 13/12/2021 02:44

I too have often thought about you and wondered how things were progressing with your DD1. Reading your latest news, I truly believe for your own peace of mind you should back right off. Let them get on with their lives their way. Stop allowing them to treat you the way they are, stop allowing them to hurt you the way they have continued, one way or another to do. I felt your pain when your DH died and the sadness that enveloped you. It sounds as if you are not without fabulous support, concentrate on them, you need now to surround you with people who inject sunshine into your life, not heap more stress, doubt and sadness into it. DDI and SIL don’t supply the sunshine quota from what I read, instead sadly, they come across as a couple of first class takers. Best wishes to you.

Twillow · 13/12/2021 02:57

I have just read your previous thread, which was quite difficult for me.
I have been your DD1, stuck between a mother and a partner who both have their issues and actively dislike each other, for some genuine and some spurious reasons. I have been your DD1 sending cards saying bland things and seeming to fail to understand the significance of Fathers days.
I loved my mother dearly, but the conflict of being stuck between two people who, while not actively arguing, always presented tensions in any situation even a mention on a telephone call, was an impossible situation. She was correct in that my choice of partner was not one she approved of, and in time the relationship ended, and we were fortunate in being able to renew our relationship fully. I completely understand your hurt and know that my mother went through very, very similar - one of my 'LB's gripes was how nobody appreciated him for entertaining some younger children at my father's wake - as if that was not something you just do for relations anyway without expectation of praise!
So, my advice:
Live your own life. Your daughter will only suffer more thinking how troubled all this makes you, feeling guilty but unable to do very much different due to her life choices. She will be happy to hear about you doing things that make you happy, as well as funny stories about things that went wrong. She may find it more difficult to cope with giving you support in your grief, I can't really explain this very well but I found it that way, perhaps the difference in intimacy between missing a father and grieving a partner?
Don't overthink or second-guess. For example, he may have gone into his workshop to avoid you, or that may have just been his typical behaviour. It's really not important. Try and accept him without deciding whether what he does is rude/controlling etc. You don't know the truth and there's no point trying to guess at motivations.
Do be in regular contact, even if you feel you don't get much response. It will mean a lot to her.
For what it's worth if you really are sorry about throwing him out of your house, write the letter to him and apologise or explain. Don't use 'but' or anything that sounds like you are justifying yourself! Remember that you are doing it to solve a problem. It may or may not help, but you have said that you will do it and your daughter seems to have expected it to happen.
And finally, I found a draft will after my mother's death that showed she had thought about cutting me out and leaving to her grandchildren alone. Please don't do that. If my mother had gone through with it, I would have not only have been destitute and homeless but more importantly would have felt so very, very hurt and abandoned.

mathanxiety · 13/12/2021 02:59

I don't think your daughter is behaving like a spoiled child. I think she is behaving like someone who is under a huge amount of pressure from an abusive partner.

It sounds to me as if your daughter has found herself a second abusive relationship, and that this husband of hers has taken her off to Ireland to keep you and your daughter apart and isolate her from any friends or support she might have closer to home. He is creating drama, and asking her to choose between him and you.

If I were you, I would try to keep lines of communication open, and do a lot of careful listening. I would stop mentioning how hard you find her distance and the cold shoulder she is giving you. I think this is a story of a young woman being abused but not able to find a way out.

Sympathise with her as she worries about the upcoming birth, as her anxiety around healthcare could be related to general anxiety about her relationship and lack of trust in the world outside her relationship. She sounds terribly unhappy.

Momijin · 13/12/2021 03:32

You're in such a difficult situation and I wouldn't know what to do for the best. I would talk to experienced professionals. Your daughter is in an abusive relationship and very much controlled by him.

Pipplekins · 13/12/2021 03:47

I too have read your other threads and unfortunately I agree with the majority.
Your SIL is toxic, he and your DD are using your DGC as weapons, this in very basic terms is abuse, not just to you but to those poor little children.
OP think hard and long on if you want to be part of that.
Whilst you have your other children and the heartbreak of losing your wonderful DH you really need to consider how this is effecting you.
Whilst this evil bastard of a man is around you will be expected to okay his game and hand over your soul. Do you want this?
I think if it were me I’d send cards for the children, set up savings accounts etc for them and wait it out.
I’m so sorry this is happening to you.

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