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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
LadyEloise1 · 08/02/2022 18:07

I think it's so sad that she didn't involve her dgrandmother more in her life.
She didn't get to her wedding or to meet her great grandchildren- a choice your daughters1 made.
Her crocodile tears now are 🤮inducing.
It was a choice she made.
And now she is in contact with her aunt - probably hoping to speed up any inheritance she and LB are hoping to get.
Would I be right that as she was growing up she was treated with kid gloves and expects others to provide.
She does sound spoilt and selfish, I'm sorry to say.
Since you first posted I have been veering from she's a spoilt little madam to she is being coercively controlled.
I still don't know.
Perhaps it's both.
Is that possible ?

SirVixofVixHall · 08/02/2022 18:09

@Angelswithflirtyfaces

How sad that they can arrange a visit in Ireland with all the planning and money that entails but not 'grace' you to have a visit now. I do wonder what game they are continually playing here, my guess is the long one. I like other posters used to feel sorry for your DD, but really feel she just continues to prolong the unfairness of this saga. Why oh why do you feel so responsible for her? You will never do or say the right thing sadly so let the overwhelming responsibility go. She is a grown woman with three children and a husband, has chosen her life, over and over. I get we all want to protect and support our children but the only support is financial. The only relationship is on their terms. Its like addicts, sometimes they need to hit a all time low, to self reflect and see the reality. I think they may be grooming you for a big payout then LB will make sure you are out of the picture for sure. How much hurt are you prepared to endure for motherly love? Its ok to say no more without guilt. Just because she acts 15 does not mean she is. Grant her the gift of making mistakes.
V much agree with this.
billy1966 · 08/02/2022 18:19

Excellent post @Angelswithflirtyfaces.

I also agree.

The decision to use a visit to Ireland as a carrot is awful, but unsurprising.

Far better to wistfully not feel up to such long journey at the moment.

Your daughter's unkindness to your MIL is on her, and her alone.

Her quick returning of a call to your SIL is so vulgar.

I sincerely hope your MIL has left her out of any bequests.

RachelGreeneGreep · 08/02/2022 19:06

She would like to see any photos of DH as a baby, so that she can compare him to DGS.

I actually think that is very cruel and manipulative on her part. I really do.

WhoAre · 08/02/2022 19:07

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

2DogsOnMySofa · 08/02/2022 19:30

@RachelGreeneGreep *She would like to see any photos of DH as a baby, so that she can compare him to DGS.

I actually think that is very cruel and manipulative on her part. I really do*

I thought exactly the same when I read it. She's had her pil over to visit, made it clear she doesn't want op to visit but wants photos of your dh to compare. Sounds very cruel

I also think the visit to Ireland is a carrot to be dangled in exchange for money

CaperCaper · 08/02/2022 20:16

Oh Chopin, I feel for you.

I would rehearse what you will say when the request for money comes, I'm sure it will. And it will be hard to say no because your heart will be broken seeing your daughter and grandchildren in the dire situation they will be in. And if you say no you become the enemy and will definitely be cut off again.

They are torturing you. This is so cruel. Dangling the promise of a trip to Ireland so you can see your grandchild - why couldn't you have visited while they were in England?

I agree so strongly with others that your DD has to feel the consequences of the choices she has made. Remember she chose LB, not you and your lovely family.

Morechocmorechoc · 08/02/2022 20:30

I think some people are forgetting that a lot of your DDs actions are led by LB and although she may be her own person she is now not really. Like the photo request. I woukd bet it was either a comment from LB to make that happen or genuine that she wants to stay connected for everything LB may her miss. She must be so sad.

For now as others say just forget it all and focus on what's at hand. You have enough to deal with at home.

tribpot · 08/02/2022 20:42

They are going to sell it 'as seen', but may not get their money back, as LB has various unfinished projects.
Your money back, isn't it?

They are also selling the property which they rent out, as the Council now insist on a licence for rental property and charge a fee, which means that it is not economic for them to continue renting it out.
This is simply not possible to be true, given the place has no mortgage on it.

Also, they have spent nearly all their savings, so need the money for the property in Ireland.
Here we go.

I'm sorry that everyone is saying the same thing, that they're warming you up for another injection of cash. But I have to agree, it makes no sense that a visit to Ireland is acceptable but a visit in the UK is not. Has LB only got the hump with you in England? Seems extremely unlikely.

It is desperate to imagine them going off to live in this state, for absolutely no reason. What should be happening is LB goes on ahead to make the place habitable for his family, but they won't be told. The only blessing is that they're moving in February, with warmer weather on the way, and not October.

I honestly would 'forget' to send any baby photos of your DH. She cut herself off from him and stopped him from seeing the grandchildren he could have seen. Let her ask SIL, who is more apt to see right through her.

UserBot9to5 · 08/02/2022 21:53

They will have lots of money if they sell two houses surely? How will they claim poverty.

RandomMess · 08/02/2022 22:00

I suspect LB wants them sold so DD1 can't leave him and live in one reality hits.

LifeInAHamsterWheel · 08/02/2022 22:07

Since they're selling TWO mortgage-free properties, now would be a good time to ask for that loan to be repaid! I'd love to know what their reaction would be to that Hmm (you'd have every right to expect your money back now)

NettleTea · 08/02/2022 22:13

@RachelGreeneGreep

She would like to see any photos of DH as a baby, so that she can compare him to DGS.

I actually think that is very cruel and manipulative on her part. I really do.

I agree - I think thats quite nasty.

Dont forget that if it starts to go tits up out there, they could always do what other people do - get a job. After all they are both trained teachers now arent they? Id have thought that was aprofession that is in demand in most places in the world, and can bring in a living wage, especially if they have no mortgage to cover.

Gardeniafleur · 08/02/2022 22:42

I think they’d need Irish language skills to do that, is that right other Irish posters?

ESGdance · 08/02/2022 22:49

@Gardeniafleur

I think they’d need Irish language skills to do that, is that right other Irish posters?
Only if teaching primary I believe.

There are also plenty of opportunities to tutor online globally I suspect.

RachelGreeneGreep · 08/02/2022 22:55

Yes, Irish is still a requirement for primary - afaik.

There are plenty of jobs to be had, in other sectors, at present. They might not be using their educational qualifications, necessarily, but then they aren't doing that anyway.
They could certainly earn a crust, should they so wish.

Acheyknees · 08/02/2022 23:29

I agree that the ground is being laid for another demand for money.
If they sell the rental, one of their sources of income will disappear. Sounds like the Irish property is a money pit so their capital will deminsh quickly.
I would suggest any requests for money are brushed aside with a breezy 'I'm sure LB has it all sorted out'. If they persist you could try 'you must be thankful you both have your university education to fall back on'.
OP, DD and LB are adults. They are making some stupid decisions but it's not for you to fix. I suspect they know they've made a mistake moving to Ireland, but if you try and help you know they will turn it around and blame you when it inevitably goes wrong.
Stay strong for DD2 and DD3, and grieve for MIL. You are a lovely lady.

CharityDingle · 09/02/2022 01:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Avonacha · 09/02/2022 02:40

Oh OP. I've been following your thread but this is the first time I'm responding because DD/LB remind me so much of my uncle. He's a narcissist who used my grandfather the same way LB (through DD) is using you. Sadly my grandfather was a real softy and just didn't know how to say 'no'. My father's the same and now even after my lovely grandfather is no more, my uncle is bleeding my father dry.

Someone upthread mentioned how addicts need to hit rock bottom for the reality of their situation to hit them- this is exactly what needs to happen for your DD. I get it- as a mother it's bloody difficult, but please, please remember the long game. If you keep cushioning her, she will never truly realise what a hole of shit her life with LB is. She won't reach a situation where she wants out. She needs to see exactly how rubbish life with LB is to ever want to leave him and return to you.

Sending lots of love xxx

ImSoMagical · 09/02/2022 08:28

Sorry to hear about your mil. It's a shame DD1 didn't have contact with her, she has lots of happy memories of her grandparents love (the recipe book is a beautiful idea) but us denying her own children the experience. So sad.

ESGdance · 09/02/2022 08:39

Be careful that if/when she eventually runs from him what you provide (if anything) because if you support with somewhere to live - there is nothing to stop them getting back together and him moving in.

I think that life in a barn in a bog in Leitrim will be bleak - and they may then have notions that your French property would be more comfortable and attractive for them.

It’s mysterious how all of a sudden they have no savings (it was £60k at one time), and that also their other revenue streams (puppy farming and house rental) have dried up so that they have to sell two mortgage free properties to survive when they live the most frugal, antisocial, reclusive lives - so much so that they can’t “afford” to replace some ear buds or buy a book. Where’s the money gone!!???

They are just common or garden scamming grifters.

YanTanTetheraPetheraPimp · 09/02/2022 18:27

@RandomMess

I suspect LB wants them sold so DD1 can't leave him and live in one reality hits.
I suspect this too. Your dd will be totally stuffed and completely under his thumb.

I just wonder how long it’ll be before the requests to see MIL’s Will start?
My disgusting estranged dsis demanded my father’s Will 12 hours after he’d died, she and BIL spent the night of my mother’s death three months later, ransacking my parents house for her will.
It no longer surprises me the depths that people will stoop to.
They see you as a convenient money source, just as my sister and BIL viewed my parents.
Utterly sickening.

UserBot9to5 · 09/02/2022 18:55

@RachelGreeneGreep

Yes, Irish is still a requirement for primary - afaik.

There are plenty of jobs to be had, in other sectors, at present. They might not be using their educational qualifications, necessarily, but then they aren't doing that anyway.
They could certainly earn a crust, should they so wish.

I think they will get jobs easily if they put their minds to it. Employers or recruiters are going to know that teachers aren't going to struggle to pick things up.

There is subbing work for English primary school teachers. SNA only about 1400 per fortnight but if I were an English primary school teacher living in Ireland Id do it but they might consider that beneath them as they're actual teachers.

UserBot9to5 · 09/02/2022 18:58

I dont think there is anything cruel about dd1 wanting to see pictures of her father when he was a baby. That has nothing to do with LB.

RachelGreeneGreep · 09/02/2022 22:44

@UserBot9to5

I dont think there is anything cruel about dd1 wanting to see pictures of her father when he was a baby. That has nothing to do with LB.
I personally think it is very cruel, especially in light of the fact that she cut her parents off, and left them in the dark about her marriage and their grandchild(ren).

She has not allowed chopin to visit the new baby, when it was perfectly possible and feasible but instead held out a crumb of hope about visiting them in Ireland, which will most likely be yet another demand for money.

I will leave it at that as I am conscious of the fact the chopin is grieving the loss of her MIL at present.

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