I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

[Chopinandchampagne]

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

Thank you so much for all of your kindness, condolences, and wisdom, and a special thank you for those, such as taylorwilde, who have shared their own painful stories. I have been thinking a lot and processing everything, over the last couple of days.

First, I think that you are all right in what you have said. After the euphoria of the happy and loving conversation with DD, I have come down to earth. I think that the move to Ireland is a big mistake. It would always have been a risky venture, but they haven't made the most rudimentary business plan, or even tested the soil to see if it is suitable for growing crops on a small holding. Also, if the land is as wet as DD says it is, I imagine that it will not be ideal for farm animals either. And how will they find time to look after crops and animals, with two toddlers and a baby, whilst LB is working on basic projects such as proper central heating for the house?

None of it makes any sense to me. They had a solid foundation, money behind them, good qualifications, supportive PIL nearby, DD had a job offer at a prestigious local school, LB could easily have found a job as a STEM teacher etc. I do believe that people should take risks and follow their dreams, but I am not sure what the dream is here, certainly nothing clearly articulated or properly thought through.

And, sooner or later, probably sooner, they are going to run into financial difficulty, and they will be looking to me to bail them out. I do know this. I genuinely don't think that DD rang me with an ulterior motive, but I can see what's coming. It's like one of those motorway signs which warns of danger ahead, in big, flashing lights. And I love my DD, although I do think that she has treated her birth family with careless cruelty, and it goes without saying that I would not let her or my DGC go homeless or hungry.

But, I am not prepared to throw money away on propping up a useless enterprise or supporting people who are too lazy or feckless to support themselves. To be fair, DD is wholly occupied with the DGC and cooking, cleaning, running the house etc. However, given that they seem to have adopted some sort of 1950s style marriage, LB needs to fulfil his obligations and support his family financially. Instead, although he will be 30 in a few months, he has never had a proper job, preferring to live off his family's money, his wife's money, and tax payers' money. Not even just UK tax payers' money, now he wants European tax payers' money, despite being a strong advocate of Brexit. Well, he is not getting any of my money, if I can help it!

Regarding their savings, which ESGdance mentioned, they would have had to pay some of it towards the house purchase, and there would have been associated costs such as solicitors' fees etc. DD said that they had also spent a lot on travel costs to and from the UK. But, even so, the arithmetic doesn't quite add up, and I wonder if they have been obliged to pay the EU forestry grant, which seems to have caused the issue with the solicitor. I suspect that they have paid far too much for the property, which they purchased after a short viewing and without any survey. The price went up about 35k euros in one day, as they said that they were in a bidding war, but it seems a bit unlikely to me - this isn't ebay! Anyway, it is what it is!

I actually feel quite calm about the situation at present. If they ask for money, I will say that it is tied up, which is largely true. I know that if I were to lend them money, they would not want to repay me and that it would lead to trouble and resentment further down the line. Whatever I may or may not do, I am determined to do it with my eyes open. I will not be blackmailed, even if it means a further period of NC. Having lost my darling DH, nothing can ever hurt me as much.

However, I do believe that the birth of DGS has changed the dynamic. It is clear from my FaceTime calls with DD that she not only loves him, but she worships him. She is a loving mother to her DDs, but her love for her DS seems to be on another level. I think it is partly because he is a boy, partly because she gave birth naturally, which she is proud of, and partly because of DH. I think that her wish for baby photos of DH is part of this, and that she is looking for a resemblance to DH in her DS. In short, LB has not exactly been displaced, but she has a new god. She may have chosen, because she was made to choose, LB over her family, but I would bet my last penny that she would choose her DS over LB.

And, further down the line, I believe that DD's maternal instincts will trump her love for LB, that eventually she will become disillusioned with his failed projects and grandiose ideas, that she will want what is best for her DC. But it may take some years for this scenario to play out. In the meantime, I will endeavour to stay out of the crossfire!

One thing which slightly troubled me after my conversation with DD was that she said that they had closed DGD1's bank account, as the money wasn't earning any interest. I do hope that they have invested it somewhere else for her. I am now convinced, if I wasn't already, that it was a wise decision to buy the casks of whisky for the DGC, instead of giving cash or gold, which LB wanted me to do. At least this way, the gifts will remain in my control until the DGD are adults, in charge of their own financial affairs.

You sound very calm @Chopinandchampagne even though some of the comments (& indeed the situation) must have been very upsetting. Of course you still love DD1, a mother's love for her children is as close to unconditional as it gets, but you are alive to the risks. Please continue to protect yourself, as you've so much sadness at the moment. Your idea of a small family celebration of MIL's life sounds lovely, if DD2 & DD3 aren't able to face the funeral service

The closing of the account doesn't sound good. If you gift the DGC any more money, could you set up an account with your other DDs as trustees?

Good grief. Just step away from all of this drama. Your DD sounds like a spoiled brat and a narcissist, and you are pandering to all of this nonsense.

How many hours have you spent writing this post (and others), and agonising over her, when she's clearly no friend of yours?

Focus on the other daughters that are lovely (your time is detracted from them, whilst you pander to DD1). Your children are ADULTS. You shouldn't be in the middle of all of their business like this.

Text/talk, but not about their business. Send presents for key dates. That's it!

I realise that's hard if she is bringing her troubles to your door, but just say no. If things fail, they will have to come home. They won't die.

Take an enormous step back. As hard as that is, you deserve some kind of peace at this time of your life. You shouldn't be spending all day thinking about this - where is your retirement and spending lazy days with friends?

Sorry if this sounds harsh - you sound so lovely and so taken advantage of.

Yes, not surprised you feel this way, what is the dream? It's not obvious at all. Living off grid? Being different? Having a harder life than necessary?

Do you have friends you can travel with? My advice would be to adopt a new approach, for say, 3 months. Immerse yourself in your own life. Do hobbies, travel with a friend, etc. Concentrate on you, and only you. If she messages with any drama, reply nicely, as a mother would, not in a "can I fix this" way. See how you feel at the end of 3 months. Probably more relaxed and your DD won't have spontaneously combusted. You can carry on from there.

They are cashing in all their assets to try & save this bottomless pit in a bog.. including using stealing DGD money. LB will say they can replace it before DGD need it. he won't.
I would send one very stern "1 liner" lawyer like reply, saying they are guardians of the money, it does not belong to them.
Where are these casks of Whisky ? Can LB sell them too ?
Don't go to Ireland before the summer, it will be uncomfortable & cold.
Can you fly & hire a car ? I would also rent somewhere locally, so that you can come & go/have hot water/& not be obliges to accept LB's hospitality.
Also, I would have expected DD to come to your home with the baby for a week or so, to be there for the family around the funeral. even if she left the 2 DDs with her PIL.
She could get the train.
There is no necessity to rush back to Ireland

Ps i think you are right about maternal instinct. I remember catching myself with horror, coercing my dd1 to be quiet , to be no trouble to not verbalise all her wants instantly because Daddy was like a bear. That was the beginning of the end. Or the beginning of the start. I had very little self-awareness back then too. And I still saw things in myself that I didn't like.

Glad to see such a measured response but a couple of things stand out - you can see what’s coming but say you won’t see them homeless. You have always said your DD is a good mother - she won’t let her children suffer and why would they be homeless? No matter how much they ‘lose’ on this ridiculous plan there will always be residual value - maybe not enough for the life they want but enough to buy a small home and start again, probably in Ireland as they may not be able to buy back in the UK if they sell the houses they have though as they’ll never have the lump sum again - unless you give it to them. This is when the French property will be targeted. I’m afraid I am cynical about the baby pictures etc - she did not treat you and DH with love and respect but she knows this new baby, with your husbands name and amazing likeness (even if none is there) will tug on your heart strings more than anything else. They are targeting a grieving mother and that’s despicable. Please don’t be drawn in with tales of poverty - they own 3 properties mortgage free - if they can’t manage with that significant resource then they need to downsize, get jobs and face real life. They’re determined to leave nothing for your other daughters - don’t let that happen. Take care x

I agree. You say you won't see them homeless, but why would they be homeless? Even if they ran through every penny you have given them they have, they are both qualified teachers. They can get jobs like everybody else does.

"I would not let DD or the DGC go homeless or hungry" you are already on the edge ready to swoop in and save DD1 from her life choices.

You need to be very clear what this help would be!! I would only offer them sanctuary in your own home excluding LB and she would have to apply through the council/HA/benefits system. Until she is divorced and financials signed off I wouldn't hand a penny over as it will go to LB.

you are already on the edge ready to swoop in and save DD1 from her life choices. yes, absolutely. Be careful about this. She is an adult and she will never grow up and leave LB if you endlessly rescue her.

You see it time and time again in parents of alcoholics and drug (including weed) addicts. Bailing them out repeatedly as they don't want them on the streets etc but until they hit rock bottom they carry on in their own old ways.

@Bigboysmademedoit

Glad to see such a measured response but a couple of things stand out - you can see what’s coming but say you won’t see them homeless. You have always said your DD is a good mother - she won’t let her children suffer and why would they be homeless? No matter how much they ‘lose’ on this ridiculous plan there will always be residual value - maybe not enough for the life they want but enough to buy a small home and start again, probably in Ireland as they may not be able to buy back in the UK if they sell the houses they have though as they’ll never have the lump sum again - unless you give it to them. This is when the French property will be targeted. I’m afraid I am cynical about the baby pictures etc - she did not treat you and DH with love and respect but she knows this new baby, with your husbands name and amazing likeness (even if none is there) will tug on your heart strings more than anything else. They are targeting a grieving mother and that’s despicable. Please don’t be drawn in with tales of poverty - they own 3 properties mortgage free - if they can’t manage with that significant resource then they need to downsize, get jobs and face real life. They’re determined to leave nothing for your other daughters - don’t let that happen. Take care x

probably in Ireland as they may not be able to buy back in the UK if they sell the houses they have though

I live in Ireland, Dublin to be precise. Property prices here are so crazy that I know a lot of people in their thirties and forties who have resigned themselves to the fact that they will never be able to buy. And that's for people working with either one or two incomes.

So property prices are not automatically lower in Ireland than the U.K.

I am sure that something in the middle of nowhere might be affordable here, but I imagine that there are parts of the U.K. to which the same thing would apply.

Yes they own three mortgage free properties! Hardly at risk of homelessness and destitution. I am in my fifties and don’t own my one home outright yet.
I agree that they are adults, not teenagers, let them crack on with this ridiculous scheme. If LB has never worked in his life it seems highly unlikely that he will start working in his thirties. They will not be able to grow food or rear livestock on very wet land. Wet, boggy land is terrible for animal welfare. To run a smallholding successfully is a huge amount of work, you need good land and excellent practical skills, LB seems completely lacking in this area, all mouth and no trousers…
I think worrying about your dd has become habitual Chopin, do you think you could let go of worrying ? She has made her choice to be with this dreadful man, at the moment she doesn’t at all seem to want to leave him , they have a huge amount of money and they are healthy, educated adults. You have fulfilled your part and can step back, you reared your daughter with love, supported her financially. You can stop now, let her make her own mistakes without being constantly on hand to solve any problems. I think there is obviously something in the way she has treated you, and approaches you now, that triggers a worried maternal response in you, as though she is a much younger dependent child, and I don’t think this is by accident. I think you have been horribly exploited here, both financially and emotionally.
You need time free of the headspace this takes up, time doing healing things that restore your sense of self, you have been through so much pain, trauma and loss over the past decade. Try and do one nice thing just for yourself each day, a coffee with a friend, a lovely walk, a scented bath with a glass of wine. Take your other dds to a beautiful city for a weekend. You are the person who needs looking after here.

My sincere condolences on the loss of your MIL. May she rest in peace. Take care.

@Chopinandchampagne
We are coming to the end of this thread and in case you disappear off Mumsnet I just want to wish you peace of mind and happiness.
Take care of yourself and your daughters who are there with you, in good times and in bad.
If your thoughts turn to DD1, LB and the grandchildren, practise a little mindfulness, dismiss the thoughts - for a while at least.
💕

Staying at theirs, in a damp, crowded and cold barn (not to mention the icy atmosphere emanating from LB) will be a horrible experience. If you do visit, stay in a nearby hotel to enjoy the hospitality, edible food (not roadkill) warm showers and flushing toilets!

Please get some IHT Estate planning advice asap. You must safeguard anything you wish to for your grandchildren in trust and appoint your other 2 daughters as trustees. The alternative is to see everything you wish to leave to them disappear into the bottomless pit. An ordinary solicitor will not be able to help you, other than drafting a basic will,. You need a proper estate planning firm.

[quote LadyEloise1]@Chopinandchampagne
We are coming to the end of this thread and in case you disappear off Mumsnet I just want to wish you peace of mind and happiness.
Take care of yourself and your daughters who are there with you, in good times and in bad.
If your thoughts turn to DD1, LB and the grandchildren, practise a little mindfulness, dismiss the thoughts - for a while at least.
💕[/quote]
This is the way to go.

Build up emotional distance so she is like a distant niece.

Has she called you yet from Ireland - do we know if the phone works from there? Might be poor signal if v remote.

Just been reading something about scammers they all use the same techniques - asking for “loans” - time pressure and urgency - eg money has to arrive within 48hrs or electricity / water will be cut off.

Don’t fall for it.

Put the distance in now - so you are detached and rational when the big ask comes.

I also think your DGS interpretation may be a bit coloured (understandably) by your own of your DH …. she maybe fantasising about her son looking like LB….and he definitely will be and dissuading her that there is any connection elsewhere. So be careful with the emotional draw on that one. It could be painful and backfire.

*own raw grief - yearning and seeking your DH in this new male life.

Now that this thread is about to end, I would like to offer my heartfelt thanks and gratitude to all of you who have spent your valuable time in supporting and helping me with your wisdom and advice. You have been an absolute lifeline for me, and I literally can't thank you enough!!

Sending you very best wishes for the next couple of months Chopin. I know they will be very difficult for you as you process your grief for MIL and feelings that are triggered due to the funeral taking place in the same church as DH's.

I hope the new cat settles in well. I was going to suggest getting a new pet as DD2 and her cat would be leaving (I have two very affectionate rag dolls who bring me joy no matter how much darkness I'm immersed in).

I hope you have found a new therapist to help you through such a difficult time.

It is completely bewildering that DD1 and LB would leave such a secure foundation. It was an impulsive decision and it was not thought through. It could well be disastrous. Be very careful how you proceed and don't enable the situation. My own DM never left my deeply controlling DF. Trauma bonds are exceptionally difficult to break free from. Not cushioning this experience for her help her eventually leave but she will need to reach her "rock bottom" first and that will be excruciating for you too.

Detach with love. Keep communications brief and cheerful. Don't become too involved with this venture - stay separate. Focus on your emotional health because you have been through so very much in the past couple of years - being too enmeshed in this situation with DD1 could be too much for you. Emotional energy is finite resource and it will deplete you. This situation could carry on for a very long time. Focus on DD2 and DD3 and creating joyful experiences for the three of you.

@Chopinandchampagne
Thinking of you and hoping there have been some positive developments.