I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

[Chopinandchampagne]

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

I would have a read of this book. You might find it very helpful. www.amazon.com/Stop-Caretaking-Borderline-Narcissist-Drama/dp/1442238321?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

@Lemonlemon88

I have read several of your threads and honestly i think you need to detach as much as possible. These people just take take take from you on their terms. Send your grandchildren presents, speak to your daughter once or twice a year, and focus on your other children so you are not constantly caught in this emotional turmoil, especially when you are coping with the loss of your DH.

I second this. You are way too involved.

A lot of excellent advice here. as indeed on your previous threads.

I wonder OP, have you taken any of it on board, since previous threads? Entirely your prerogative of course.

@fluoropostit

Yes that’s exactly what I meant about the twitch upon the thread, it makes you dance to her tune. she may not even consciously realise she’s doing it, but she sure knows instinctively how to hoooooooover up all your headspace.

You are really kind and generous to all your kids, but you must remember that most of us are all surviving without investments and inheritances and kegs of whiskey etc and doing fine - not that you shouldn’t do these things at all, it simply seems you sometimes feel you’re neglectful if you don’t do them, but: she’s married, she has three kids, been given love support and money. It’s now time for them to be the adults they are.

LOTS of children would be rolling up now to pay for YOU, and take YOU out for lunch or on holiday, or buy you thoughtful stuff given the year you’ve had. You maybe need to reframe your belief of your obligations.

I also agree with this. She is married, they own three properties at the moment don’t they ? She has had a massive inheritance, they are both qualified and well into adulthood. Are you still paying for her ‘phone OP ? It is as though she has frozen time to be still a student, but she is a mother herself, not a child any more.

A bit about the book:

Features:

• Offers hope, control and confidence to people being manipulated by a borderline or narcissist.

• Shows you how to let go of trying to please, appease and soothe the constant complaints, irrationality and neediness of the borderline or narcissist.

• Includes real stories and practical suggestions from a seasoned therapist.

• Teaches techniques for getting out of the illogical, circular, blameful attacks by the borderline or narcissist.

• Offers ways to create a happy, healthy, fully-functioning life despite the borderline or narcissist.

• Talks about how to regain power over your own life by learning skills to effectively deal with the crazy-making behaviors of the borderline or narcissist.

• Shows how your own passivity, over-responsibility, and need to please the borderline or narcissist keeps your relationship stuck.

• Take the self-assessment test to see if you are unwittingly colluding with the borderline or narcissist in maintaining a dysfunctional relationship.

A bit more …..

Caretakers and Their Borderline/Narcissists:

• Caretakers hope to fix or heal the Borderline or Narcissist to improve the relationship.

• Caretakers get frustrated and hurt when the Borderline or Narcissist doesn’t get better.

• The Caretaker’s fear of anger and disagreement lead them to being manipulated by the Borderline or Narcissist.

• Caretakers give up their own needs and wants to try to appease the Borderline or Narcissist.

• Caretakers often don’t pay enough attention to their own needs.

• Letting go of the Caretaker role includes giving up hope, giving up guilt and giving up shame.

• Learning to acknowledge and care for your own feelings and needs helps you drop the Caretaker role.

• Being a Caretaker is damaging to your health and well-being.

• Emotionally caretaking another adult leads to an imbalance of power and a fight for control in the relationship.

• By breaking the crazy-making rules in the relationship, you can quit Caretaking and step back into the world of logic, sanity, and personal choice.

• You can quit Caretaking and restore your healthy sense of well being, but you can’t change the Borderline or Narcissist.

Why does he do these things
Because he can

It won't change, he won't change and she won't change. She draws you in, then hurts you again.

Go back to chatting once a week, don't reply to all the calls and texts. Agree nicely but don't throw yourself into research etc.

This is the life they want, it's crap for you. Be more like your other daughters.

Strangely enough l was only thinking of you this morning, l wish the update was better. I had a nasty feeling this is what would happen. Please don't think this means we told you so, l would loved it if SIL had changed. They both sound very work shy which is confusing as they have a small holding and very soon will have 3 young children. Undoubtedly that won't be their fault and will require yet more money. The septic tank will need sorting, the price of oil is extortionate etc etc

Like others l think take a major step back. No handouts, apologies etc. Get DGC a case of whisky if that's what you did for their siblings. WHATEVER you do then it won't be good enough so l would stop even trying. He will just use them as sticks to beat you with. The hamper "feedback" was rude and churlish

Another vote for LB having a personality disorder. Most of the indicators appear to be there

Glad to hear DD2 is feeling better and good luck for her property purchase

@HollowTalkMedical care isn't free. Especially for some English people who rolled into the country 2 minutes ago.

I would also be wary about being too close to their plans - which inevitably will go tits up as ever - and somehow you will set up to bail them out because supposedly you encouraged and supported the venture.

care isn't free. Especially for some English people who rolled into the country 2 minutes ago

Yes, I can just imagine how from an LB perspective, it will be all the fault of his new neighbours and country folk that he doesn't get every handout he might want from a country he's only just moved to and will not be working and paying tax in, although he could. As well as allowing him to more effectively assert control over his wife, the move also allows him to paint himself once again as the brave independent soul struggling to establish his homestead against the will of the uncaring authorities and locals.

Be prepared for sob stories on these lines to come your way, OP, in time. As @ESGdance said, they'll be looking to you then to pour more money down the drain. Don't.

I think you need to detach op. It is clearly not you as you have other loving, supportive family and friends.

My dd1 is like this. I cannot tell you how difficult she has made our lives. Two of her children live with us because of her behaviour, otherwise they would have gone into care. It is difficult bringing up more teenagers but we are devoted to them. We always tried to keep things on an even keel for the sake of the children and our newer gcs. But she has never got better and has gone back to going out drinking all the time and coming in at 6 am in the morning leaving the children again. The Police have been involved. She has abused my dd2 appallingly despite her kindness and support.

I have had to walk away. This year I have decided to cut the cord and send cards only to my younger gc's who I am not allowed to see because I am to be punished for stepping in with her appalling behaviour towards the children. No more expensive gifts which she criticises and moans about. For the first time, I did not feel worried when I bought my grandson some mens' perfume that was not the actual perfume, this was one of the rules I had to abide by.

You have suffered bereavement and she is still not kind to you. She has benefitted financially from your dh's passing and is still complaining. Give yourself space from her. You must start thinking of yourself and others who care about you.

@ESGdance post is exactly right. Sadly, you seem to acknowledge that, but you also acknowledged the good advice on your January thread, and have spent a year getting pulled deeper and deeper into an abusive relationship. Just because it’s with your daughter, and not a partner, doesn’t mean that it’s not an abusive relationship that will do you untold damage.

Even if you only do it for your daughter, stepping away and letting her ultimately see her relationship for what it is, it’s an important and vital thing to do.

Unfortunately, I think there’s a good chance of you sinking a lot of money into their failing small holding, in a loving but totally misguided desire to help her, and mend your relationship. It won’t work.

I’m very sorry that it’s so hard for you to distance yourself from this toxic woman, just because you happened to give birth to her.

HollowTalk

He has learned that you have more money than you give him and he can't cope with that. He wants everything.

Does anyone know why this? Why some men feel entitled to money from their mothers, mother-in-laws, sisters, etc?

So much great advice especially from @ESGdance, all i can add to the collective wisdom is ‘if you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got’……it’s definitely time to try what they advise - however hard that is. What you’re doing so far is really not working.

Sadly having read you last thread I am not in the least bit surprised and i doubt anyone else is either

You wont lose your daughter again as you never found her, she was lost when she met lobster boy.

Honestly she is not a nice person. You will never have a full relationship with her or dgc.

Hopefully when dd2 and dd3 have children you can move forwards.

I also think you need to detach yourself for the situation for your own sake and for your other dc. It’s really difficult I know we are going through something similar with our dd she is in a controlling abusive relationship she has cut herself off from all her friends and family. I’ve had to block her number as her boyfriend was sending me abusive messages from her phone. It’s heartbreaking I want a better life for her but she is an adult barely she 20 I just periodically sent her an email asking how university is going updating her on things we have done to keep the line of communication open she never replies unless she wants money or has a crisis like her car breaking which again costs money. All the drama was taking over our lives and causing so much stress we decided to take a step back we deserve to have a peaceful life and have ds to think about and we can’t change the situation hopefully dd will see sense one day
I vaguely remember your other threads how old is your dd op

Another vote for the excellent analysis by @ESGdance

Especially poignant and relatable to me as a DD1 myself in the past, the bit about irritation and complaints being focused towards the mother diverting DD1 from the weaknesses in her own relationship with LB. Without that triangulation, DD1 will be forced to face the fact that LB is the negative energy rather than the mother.

I too have read your previous threads and I echo what everyone else has said about detaching yourself.

You have tried so so hard to make things right but as you know, you will never win.

One day she will wake up and smell the coffee but until then, pay more attention to yourself and accept that you won’t have a close relationship with her or your DGC.

Otherwise you will just constantly be in turmoil. It makes me anxious and angry just reading this.

Best wishes OP x

As for the financial side, I agree you need to stop this. If you feel guilt over it, put every penny that matches what you'd have spent on her as an equal share in normal circumstances into a separate account.
I feel she is likely to need it one day when she hopefully comes to her senses and leaves him.

@GooseberryJam l pretty sure you’re spot on with that analysis. Despite the fact Irish people also pay for their medical care

In all honesty op i think they're both rude and disrespectful. Concentrate on dd2 and dd3 and keep it simply with dd1. She will come to you when she needs your support one day

I remember your earlier threads and I agree with others that you should mentally detach yourself from them and concentrate on your own mental health and relationships with your two younger children.

This pair are still yanking your chain to extract as much money from you to build up SIL’s asset portfolio. Eventually the money will all be transferred over and with it their interest in you. But much more important than money is the effect of all this on your mental health.

I really hope your eldest has an easier birth this time, and it’s terrifying to think she’s the reason she’s not having having a CS is probably because LB wants her back up on her feet doing household chores and childcare as soon as little lobster is born, while LB diddles away in his workshop.

@GooseberryJam

care isn't free. Especially for some English people who rolled into the country 2 minutes ago

Yes, I can just imagine how from an LB perspective, it will be all the fault of his new neighbours and country folk that he doesn't get every handout he might want from a country he's only just moved to and will not be working and paying tax in, although he could. As well as allowing him to more effectively assert control over his wife, the move also allows him to paint himself once again as the brave independent soul struggling to establish his homestead against the will of the uncaring authorities and locals.

Be prepared for sob stories on these lines to come your way, OP, in time. As @ESGdance said, they'll be looking to you then to pour more money down the drain. Don't.

Actually, that’s not true, or at least not relevant to the OP’s DD — no pregnant woman living in Ireland, regardless of her nationality, pays for antenatal care, labour/delivery costs, or postnatal care. You can go private, obviously but if you don’t, it’s free.

But otherwise that sounds pretty plausible about LB’s attitudes. Which mean they’re unlikely to integrate in rural Ireland.

Hello @Chopinandchampagne sad but not surprised that you are still going through this turmoil. Sorry to read of your other loss too I'm concerned that these two will bleed you dry, both financially if you let them but also emotionally. I know it is heartbreaking but I think you must detach & focus on your other DDs & your friends & wider family. It's painful to see that strangers on the internet are more concerned & sympathetic to the loss of your wonderful DH than DD1 & the vile LB. Please protect yourself.

For pity’s sake please don’t keep enabling these two, your DD included. How delusional is LB that he thinks he can succeed with a small holding to provide for a growing family when he has no experience or skills in this area. He really does rate himself doesn’t he.