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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
mayblossominapril · 13/12/2021 04:03

Unfortunately I think you will have to stand back as nothing you can do will be right. SIL appears determined not to work which makes buying a small holding a very odd choice but if you are very rural and haven’t got much money you are very isolated which seems his aim for his family.
I know of a situation where the controlled partners mother has money and can keep helping out when things go wrong but it hasn’t helped the controlled one. This person is controlled to the point of not being able to see family members without being punished or telephone them in the house. To the outside it appears like a lovely family.
Maintain lines of communication with your daughter, visit if possible but stay in a hotel, don’t give cash he can spend but maybe get things she needs such as clothing. If you do send vouchers or cash at Christmas and birthdays think about how she will be able to use it without him getting it. Because the controlled person I know has their money taken off them.
Unfortunately if they don’t want to leave and can’t see it they won’t leave.
I don’t think it’s about you and sil not getting on. My mother and partner don’t get on. My mother sees plenty of me and the GC and partner doesn’t criticise my mother it’s just an accepting they don’t gel and they avoid each other.
The controlled person I know does everything to avoid rocking the boat because the fall out is so bad now as they’ve done as their told for so many years the slightest disobedience is massively punished.

IAAP · 13/12/2021 04:18

@HollowTalk

I have often thought about you. I think your daughter is under her husband's spell and she abuses you in order to please him. I know how hard that must be to hear.

Money is always at the root of their issues. They don't want to work, do they? It wouldn't surprise me if money is not the solution to this particular argument so that you can see the new baby if you cough up some money.

I'm sure your daughter was perfectly lovely when she was younger but she is incredibly abusive now. I would prefer a punch in the face to the way she treats you. I really do think you have to go very low contact with him and her. I was wondering what would happen if he died and whether she would ever return to normal but you know I don't think I would be able to trust her afterwards.

Listen to what your other daughters say. Keep yourself safe, financially and emotionally.

I have posted on your threads before and sent you PMs

I believe with lobster boy you are dealing with a narcissistic controlling man - your daughter has had plenty of support but you can’t win this one ever. Narcs will let you win - they keep the children and a relationship as bait- in all of this your focus right now is your other daughters they need full attention.

You might even send your DD a letter when the baby is born - saying that no hamper is ever right, no gift, no matter how hard you try so you have set up Amazon wish list for each of the children for birthday and Christmas - and they can just update that as needed - they can ask you to visit and if they want to visit they are very welcome. And just leave it like that.

Please look at DR ramani YouTube videos on dealing with a narcissist- they both are to me - she has chosen her life she is an adult.

It’s taken me a very very long time to see my father who I so loved and wanted him to love me and be proud of me as a narcissist but he is - nothing I do will ever be good enough. Birthday cards and gifts are criticised. Etc the rules change constantly.

In your case you have daughters who are lovely and kind focus on them and therapy

mathanxiety · 13/12/2021 04:35

If you know where they live in Ireland, you could contact the local health centre and try to relate to them that you believe your daughter is living with an abusive man.

A midwife or public health nurse should visit your daughter in Ireland after the baby is born. It may be that they are planning the birth in the UK so that they can fly under the radar of the local PHN in Ireland, not have post natal visits or be observed by any 'authority figure'. Otherwise why not have the baby in Ireland and register the birth with the British Embassy.

ThreeLocusts · 13/12/2021 05:24

I agree with PPs who said the entitled attitude is his, not hers, and she is being controlled.

You've tried tiptoeing around them. Maybe tell her that her husband's behaviour feels toxic to you, that you are done pandering to him but will always be there for her and her children, then withdraw.

I'm sorry, this must be really hard.

rhnireland · 13/12/2021 05:39

You sound so lovely and caring. She took time away from you when it suited her I think it's now time you did the same.

You don't deserved to be treated like the wicked witch of the west and you have clearly made a massive effort to be nice to your SIL.

I also would no longer be all the generous to her and see if she even bothers to make any effort.

maras2 · 13/12/2021 05:56

That hovel that they've bought is a money pit.
She's after another handout as the inheritance won't touch the sides.
Please, please do not be tempted to oblige her.
My thoughts are always with you. Flowers
Best wishes. Mx.

RedRobin100 · 13/12/2021 05:56

@PyongyangKipperbang

He is abusive and she hasnt cottoned on yet. But your tiptoeing isnt helping because it is actually confirming to her that she should do what he wants as thats ok.

Standing up and saying "You know what? This isnt ok. What he demands isnt ok and I will no longer accept it. I have only done it this long because I love and am worried about you. I will always be here for you and the door will always be open. Ask for help and it will be given. " And then distance.

She will come back, it may take a while but she will.

This
tribpot · 13/12/2021 06:35

It's so sad to see you still caught up in the same toxic dynamic with these two, even whilst it's entirely understandable. We'd all do anything for our children, and I'm sure that's what motivating you to keep going back for the next kicking.

Things aren't going Lobster Boy's way, so of course he is now resurrecting previous grievances and wanting that letter, which I think we all advised you under no circumstances to send. DD is heavily and dangerously pregnant so of course he is ramping up his emotional abuse of her, that's what he does. Legal bills will be mounting and all of this is a prelude to demanding more money from you.

I think that staying enmeshed in this thoroughly unhealthy relationship is hindering your grieving process. Please make 2022 the year you put yourself first; focus on your own needs and your other children, and detach from this dreadful pair.

timeisnotaline · 13/12/2021 06:40

I don’t think that’s fair @Twillow This is not a conflict between two reasonable people with poor dil caught in the middle. This is a very abusive man who has clearly been manipulating access to his wife and children with his mil for financial gain, and is deeply controlling of his wife. Of bloody course Chopin doesn’t like him. Her daughter is being abused, but Chopin doesn’t endlessly owe effort and emotion to her adult child either. The question is that balance- and if attaining that balance means writing daighter out of her will then that’s the right thing to do for hersef. I don’t know your circumstances but if chopins daughter ends up feeling betrayed by this that’s because she doesn’t have anywhere near enough self awareness as to how she has colluded with LB to use her mother and father for money, bartering glimpses and info about her babies as emotional blackmail, turning the access tap on and off, promising and putting off visits. Yes she’s a victim but not everything ends happily ever after for everyone, she has made choices and Chopin can’t save her dd unless she wants to be saved.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 13/12/2021 06:41

Lobster boy strikes again. Do not send anything further like a hamper that can and indeed has been criticised.

And now he had dragged them all to some small holding in Ireland, that will not last or at all work out either. Am I surprised that he/they have fallen out with their solicitor, no. This is their entire life and one your DD has chosen because she is the muse to he bring the Svengali. It was truly a sad day for you all as a family when their paths crossed because she is very much still under his spell.

Shoxfordian · 13/12/2021 06:42

It sounds like your daughter is in an abusive relationship; but there’s not much you can do for her when she’s in thrall to the abuser and using his tactics against you as well

Pixxie7 · 13/12/2021 07:00

I think anyone who uses a child to punish their close family members, unless it’s for a very good reason, is cruel. A child isn’t a possession they are members of a family.

reallyworriedjobhunter · 13/12/2021 07:02

It sounds like she is in an abusive relationship but I agree with the others who have said that for your own well-being, you need to step back.

Low contact, cheery light conversation, grey rock when needed, and be there when it all falls apart.

I'm sorry - it must be very painful.

Cherrysoup · 13/12/2021 07:07

Honestly, stop trying to please your idiot sil, you will never succeed. It’s an impossible task. Withdraw, be polite and if you feel they’re being rude, say so. The ungrateful ness over the hamper is extraordinary.

2022TheYearofMe · 13/12/2021 07:09

Is this Lobster Boy OP? If so I’ve read your other posts and I feel for you, I have no advice to give but agree that your DD is in a very coercive and abusive relationship.

💐

LizzieSiddal · 13/12/2021 07:11

I too think your DD is in an abusive relationship, your SIL is controlling her and in turn trying to ruin the relationship you have with her.
Unfortunately I don’t think there’s much you can do other than tell her you will always be there for her, then to protect yourself I think you have to step back a bit, visit if they will allow it, try to keep communication with her open but don’t expect much in return. Hopefully she will see what’s happening and will remove herself one day.

Anomelettefortheroad · 13/12/2021 07:13

Your dd had a baby and didn't tell you for 14 months? Is that right? That's really not normal if so.

It sounds like your dd is in a horrific and probably abusive relationship and now he's got her all to himself over in Ireland, pregnant and vulnerable with two other kids as well. But as you've seen, when you try and intervene and ask him to leave your house for bullying her, she takes his side. I think if i were you i would have to detach and tell her you're there if she ever needs you but you can't keep doing this. Send gifts, cards and letters for the children as you wish but i wouldn't send the adults anything else, and id stop holding out olive branches and expecting anything to be different. I'm so very sorry for your losses. You've been through so much and it's awful that your dd can't even find it in herself to be nice to you.

GrumpyLivesInMyHouseNow · 13/12/2021 07:14

I read your previous threads and I think your dd is 'much of the same'. It's poor craft to moan about gifts in my book and simply unnecessary. A 'thanks you' and move on is the polite thing (but your dd has never been one for politeness).

I also think you need to detach. Let them come to you, remain polite and warm, but let her lead the way, expect nothing. I suspect you can't win, if you make a fuss when dgs arrives you'll be pushed out and told not to get involved, if you leave them to come to your you'll be accused of not caring.

Your dd won't change until she leaves sil, and even then I suspect she'll always be a challenge. We do our best for our dc and hope they turn out to be good humans, but it's not always the case, I believe in nature over nurture, there's only so much influence we have.

MamDancer · 13/12/2021 07:18

@Lemonlemon88

I have read several of your threads and honestly i think you need to detach as much as possible. These people just take take take from you on their terms. Send your grandchildren presents, speak to your daughter once or twice a year, and focus on your other children so you are not constantly caught in this emotional turmoil, especially when you are coping with the loss of your DH.
As another long time thread reader I agree with the above.
Billybagpuss · 13/12/2021 07:20

Hi @Chopinandchampagne I’m so sorry you have had to start a new thread although it’s nice to be able to wave and say hi to you again.

I’m afraid your current update was inevitable from the moment they started mentioning Ireland and you didn’t immediately stump up the cash to help them.

It has been proven time and again that where lb is concerned you can’t do right for doing wrong, had you sent the letter he would have studied it and found some spurious thing to take offence at even if it were just a misplaced comma. They only got back in touch initially because they needed money. Now he’s got another dc with which to hold over you it’s all kicking off again.

Honestly my suggestion is to get the new dgc a case of whiskey like you did the other two if that’s what you want to do and continue with the bland vanilla upset no one responses. You know dd1 really wants it but is so far into the abusive relationship it is difficult for her and as you have said before you don’t want to get too close to the dc to protect your own heart if they are snatched away again. Stay detached. You can do this but I’m so sorry you have to.

And honestly you had to say what you said to her re DH and she bloody well should feel guilty but again, inevitable that they would hold onto it rather than accept that their behaviour was despicable.

How is dd2 now I seres to remember she was ill

Beautiful3 · 13/12/2021 07:24

I think your daughter and son in law are behaving appallingly. I feel sorry for you. I'd detach from the whole thing, and be there when she eventually does reach out to you. I suspect money's a big motivator for them, I'd stop sending money/gifts, just a nice card on birthdays and Christmas.

EarringsandLipstick · 13/12/2021 07:24

@Lemonlemon88

I have read several of your threads and honestly i think you need to detach as much as possible. These people just take take take from you on their terms. Send your grandchildren presents, speak to your daughter once or twice a year, and focus on your other children so you are not constantly caught in this emotional turmoil, especially when you are coping with the loss of your DH.
I have to echo this advice, having read your other threads over the past while

Initially your threads focused on SIL. While I accept he's exercised control over DD, at this point, there is no excuse for her shameful, grabby behaviour. She sounds utterly selfish & immature.

Your other daughters sound loving & involved. Focus on them.

I'm so sorry for all your losses, especially DH

HappyGoLuckyLuLu · 13/12/2021 07:25

Also read previous threads and I'm sorry that it seems nothing has changed.

Agree with those saying to distance yourself - self-preservation is needed as it clearly twists you up in knots. I'd suggest sending vouchers or doing the Amazon list idea as someone put above, and staying in contact by post mainly - reiterate everytime that you're always here for her and DGC if ever needed. Repeat that over and over to make sure she knows door js always open for her & DGC if she needs you, but otherwise step back. I think the turmoil of this constant battle & the passive aggressive interactions like telling you your lovely gift wasn't right & continually trying to make you apologise for something that happened ages ago is really bad for you. And from your posts you sound lovely & don't deserve this treatment. But ultimately it doesn't seem like things will change here so you'd be better off staying available but not making yourself an easy target for their abuse and being hurt. Look after yourself Thanks

EarringsandLipstick · 13/12/2021 07:26

She will come back, it may take a while but she will.

I very much doubt it. But even if DD changed, she's damaged the relationship irreparably. I wouldn't be rebuilding a meaningful relationship with her if I were OP.

What DD has done is unforgivable.

Quartz2208 · 13/12/2021 07:49

I agree I have read but never posted and I think now you do need to detach. Focus on what you have with the rest of your family.

If she ever does leave or need you of course be there but stop chasing it, let her go. You will never be able to fufil what they want

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