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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

I don't think I will be allowed to see my new grandchild.

1000 replies

Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 00:27

Some of you may remember my previous threads regarding my relationship with my daughter and SIL.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4145356-SIL-and-money-issues?msgid=109152806#109152806

It has been a difficult year, following the death of DH, with lots of firsts to get through, but I have just about survived, with a lot of support from DD2 and DD3, DH's family and friends. And, earlier in the year, DD1 told me she was expecting DGS1 in early January. This time she told me very shortly after the pregnancy was confirmed, and was clearly thrilled saying that 'new life' was coming after DH's death. She was delighted to find out that the baby is a boy, as SIL particularly wanted a son, after two daughters.

I had thought that, if there were any positives from DH's death - and it is hard to think of any, as I loved him so much - the family might be reconciled and healed. And I was very happy to hear about the baby, although a bit concerned, given the two previous emergency C sections (although I kept my concerns to myself).

DD1 has now moved to Ireland, having purchased a small holding with her inheritance from DH's aunt, as DH drafted his aunt's will so that his share would go to his DC if he were to predecease her. DD1 had sent me photos of the new property, says how much they love it over there, it feels 'so right' etc. They went for about a month and have now returned to the UK for the birth. I thought all was fine with my relationship with DD1, we were having natural conversations, FaceTimes with DGD1 and DGD2, ending conversations with 'I love you; etc.

I had enjoyed picking out some Christmas presents, which I thought they would enjoy. With the DGDs, I have sent presents which I knew they would appreciate, for DD1 some cashmere hat, gloves, scarf etc, and socks for baby, as I know it will be cold on the small holding, but also a food hamper, chocolates and candles sent jointly to DD1 and SIL, saying with love from Mum etc.

I spoke to DD1 on Friday and I could tell that there was something wrong, as she seemed more tense, less relaxed. She started by saying that she thought I should claim a refund for the hamper, that I had wasted my money, as the ham was too dry and not as good as supermarket ham. I thanked her for letting me know and said I would do so. She said the chocolates had too many additives, so they couldn't eat them (I had chosen dairy and soy free ones, as DGD1 had an allergy to dairy), so I said fine, just regift or donate them. They are generally happy with the DGC's toys, although I shouldn't send anything else. I said I understood, and was conscious that they wouldn't want too much stuff to take back to Ireland.

Then I asked her about how she was feeling and how the 36 week scan had gone. It seems that the baby is small (10th percentile), although appears healthy, but she is very worried about the birth, which is understandable, given the history. She wants a natural birth and is terrified of intervention. She thinks some of the medical staff are horrible and referred to one who asked her last time if she wanted a dead baby on her conscience, after she refused medical advice to have an elective C section. I made reassuring comments. She also said that she might not tell anyone when she went into labour as she didn't want to worry anyone, such as SIL's grandparents (last time she sent me messages before the birth and we spoke afterwards).

We then had a discussion about Ireland. They have run into some problems to do with the Forestry/Agricultural Commission which are preventing them from obtaining a felling licence and flock number, which they need to purchase animals. It seems that not all of the land has been conveyed to them and they have fallen out with the solicitor, whom they feel has been negligent. SIL spent a long time composing a letter and was angry when he only received a brief reply from the solicitor.

Anyway, after all that, I said that I and her sisters were looking forward to seeing the baby, especially after not seeing DGD1 as a baby, and DGD2 because of lockdown. She went a bit quiet and was non committal just saying Mmm, we'll see, I need to have the baby first. I pressed the point and she said 'SIL is my husband'. I said 'Yes, I know'. She said that I had tried to make her feel guilty over her treatment of DH and that she didn't feel guilty. She repeated this and then said that I had said that I was going to write SIL a letter in the summer and that it might now be too late. I was genuinely taken aback by this.

For context, before I visited in the summer, we had a heated conversation where I said that she had hurt DH (and me) by not telling him about the birth of DGD1 for 14 months or her marriage and by moving without telling us. I admit I was angry as I felt that DH had been cheated of precious time with his granddaughter, although I said that I knew she hadn't known that he was going to die. I said that I thought that she had been emotionally abusive in 'ghosting' us and I didn't want to form an attachment to my DGCs if there was a risk of it happening again. It would just be too painful. It made me afraid of loving them as I would wish to. DD1 had referred then to the incident, some years before, where I had made SIL leave my house (they weren't married then), as I felt he was bullying her. I said that it was all a long time ago and that 'Dad didn't do anything wrong, did he?', to which she replied 'No'. She said that SIL had told her not to be in contact.

I subsequently said, in another conversation, that I had been angry, but that I wasn't any longer, and that it would be nice if we could go out to lunch together, just the two of us, when I visited, and to start rebuilding our relationship. I duly visited, had what I thought was a very pleasant day with the family at a local attraction, then lunch with DD1 then next day. I said I thought that the previous day had gone well and she said that SIL had told her that he did not want me to visit too often (this was the first time I had visited since DH's funeral). I said that I was sorry to hear this and was there some way of resolving matters; that the 'incident' was all a long time ago, that it was time to move on, and that DH's death put disagreements into context. She said maybe I should say that to SIL and it was him I should be taking out or talking to. I said I would be happy to talk to him, but I doubted that he would want to go out with me, maybe I should write him a letter. So I floated the idea of a letter in a private conversation with DD1, but did not say that I was definitely going to write one and, upon reflection, I thought that it might be too much of a hostage to fortune.

During this lunch, which was mostly pleasant, and focusing on neutral topics, DD1 repeated again that she had cut us off because SIL had told her to, that she had had to choose and would always choose SIL. I said that I had made SIL leave my house on that occasion because I was trying to protect her, especially given her previous abusive relationship. She said she had not told SIL about this ie the previous relationship and she was not sure if she would behave in the same way as I did. She said she appreciated that I did not know that she would marry SIL at the time. I said that I understood that, in the final analysis, she would and should put her family first, but I thought she should also have some loyalty to her original family. After that, we returned to everyday topics and I thought we had both had a pleasant lunch, 'cleared the air', and that we were moving forward in rebuilding our relationship. However, it seems I was wrong.

When we returned to the house after lunch (for me to call a taxi back to the hotel), SIL went off to his workshop without speaking to me or saying goodbye. I went to the workshop and said goodbye and gave him a hug. I found it a gruelling trip without DH but went away thinking it had gone well.

Anyway, back to the present, I was blindsided by DD1's comments in the conversation to the effect that I should have written a letter and that it might be 'too late'. I said what did she think I should say in the letter. I said that it was all so long ago, that I had apologised to SIL, that we had met since then at DD1's 21st, that he had said we were 'ok'.DD1 said she didn't want anything that would upset her after the birth. I said that I would never do anything to upset her after the birth. I said that I was nice to SIL, praised him for his DIY skills and as a father, that I behaved in a civilised fashion, sent him cards and gifts, what more could I do, I couldn't make him like me. At this stage DD1 was clearly agitated and said she had to go and that she would speak to me another time. I said 'Alright darling, good bye'.

So I feel both devastated and empty at the same time. I had thought, after the most hellish two years, when I had to watch my beloved DH die and then lose his aunt, whom I was close to. When, more recently, my MIL nearly died, my sister in law has had major surgery, and I have lost one of my closest friends (the funeral is this week), I had thought that I had just about survived. I keep giving myself a talking to, saying come on, just one more step forward, nearly there, nearly the end of the year. And now this.

I apologise for the length of this post, but I would be grateful for any advice as to how handle the situation. Part of just feels like giving up, but I obviously don't want to lose DD1 again, and I am worried about the birth of DGS and would have wanted to be a support, not an aggravating factor.

OP posts:
Santahatesbraisedcabbage · 13/12/2021 07:59

I think ultimately dd needs to not have you around to realise what she is doing. Adding a newborn to the mix will be hard for her...
When my ds withdrew from me I left him to it. A year later he came back. As hard as it is you are picking the scab by keep on trying.
Imo.

tallduckandhandsome · 13/12/2021 08:01

I also agree with the first poster, it’s time to detach.

It does sound like he has always been a bully/abusive and his telling your dd to cut you off is another facet of this.

Let’s hope she sees it one day. I suppose he will now be entitled to half of the holding as well?

Gretaburley · 13/12/2021 08:01

@Chopinandchampagne. I agree about detaching.
You can’t carry on living like this, it’s too much.

Interestingly I had a friend in a similar situation. When her dd got pregnant oldest dc suddenly realised that his dc wouldn’t be the centre of attention anymore and he couldn’t use them as emotional blackmail.
Friend now gets to see her oldest dgc much more and with fewer strings attached.

user1471462428 · 13/12/2021 08:02

I replied on you previous thread that I think you’re using up too emotional energy on them and you’d be better investing that energy into your remaining daughters.

Bananarama21 · 13/12/2021 08:03

I remember your previous threads are you the poster who's dd met her dh when she was at university dropped out and got pregnant quickly into the relationship and he's slowly cut her away from families and friends?

I imagine now they are in Ireland it's going to be a lot harder to maintain a relationship which is why they moved there, I'm sorry she's treating you like this, unfortunately there's not alot you can do but just be there for your own mental well being.

Dery · 13/12/2021 08:07

“I don't think your daughter is behaving like a spoiled child. I think she is behaving like someone who is under a huge amount of pressure from an abusive partner.

It sounds to me as if your daughter has found herself a second abusive relationship, and that this husband of hers has taken her off to Ireland to keep you and your daughter apart and isolate her from any friends or support she might have closer to home. He is creating drama, and asking her to choose between him and you.

If I were you, I would try to keep lines of communication open, and do a lot of careful listening. I would stop mentioning how hard you find her distance and the cold shoulder she is giving you. I think this is a story of a young woman being abused but not able to find a way out.

Sympathise with her as she worries about the upcoming birth, as her anxiety around healthcare could be related to general anxiety about her relationship and lack of trust in the world outside her relationship. She sounds terribly unhappy.”

This with bells on.

Gargellen · 13/12/2021 08:08

You really do need to drop the rope OP.
We were in a similar situation. This was my step son and his new wife. From the moment he met her she has driven a wedge between him and his family and it got more and more toxic.

We just dropped them because it was having such a negative affect on our life quality. We could never do right. No one in the family could but they have chosen to stick with them. We chose not to and the more they try to appease the ghastly pair the weirder it all becomes. Had we stayed in touch, our lives would be like yours is now. Back off 99% and do your own thing. If you don't it will wreck your life and they will happily wreck it, that's the real kicker. They don't give the tiniest of shits because it's the feeling of power and revenge over tiny and imagined things that unites them. Stop giving them this gift. You are not alive to act as an ingredient in their weird bubble.

NewbieAlert · 13/12/2021 08:10

I haven’t read your previous threads but from this one the whole relationships feels so draining. Constantly walking on eggshells. Afraid of putting a foot wrong.
Spend your precious time with people who love and appreciate you. Accept that this relationship will never be what you want it to be. Move on.
Sorry for your losses.

WimpoleHat · 13/12/2021 08:15

Oh gosh - things don’t get better with Lobster Boy! I feel so upset for you. OP - the pain in your posts is palpable. But you can’t win here. I agree with others: detach and try to keep some emotional distance for your own sake.

What do your other DDs think about these new developments? From what you’ve said previously, they both seem to have a pretty measured perspective on the situation.

Totalwasteofpaper · 13/12/2021 08:17

@Lemonlemon88

I have read several of your threads and honestly i think you need to detach as much as possible. These people just take take take from you on their terms. Send your grandchildren presents, speak to your daughter once or twice a year, and focus on your other children so you are not constantly caught in this emotional turmoil, especially when you are coping with the loss of your DH.
I have read them all Flowers

I agree with this.
And I think a good therapist who you have some rapport with would also be helpful to help you keep it "level" and stay objective calm and somewhat detached.

You need to aim for "5 out of 10" on the mood-o-meter
Too much fun, genuine connection and niceness = bad, she get guilty LB gets jealous
Too much tough conversation, addressing problems, being real = bad she has to face reality of her awful behaviour to you & LBs to her

cansu · 13/12/2021 08:24

She sounds a real pain. Moaning about the hamper is rude. I think on the SIL front, you need to say, I am focusing on the future and I don't think letters about the past would be helpful especially as we are talking about an incident from years ago. If she starts talking about you not seeing new baby, I would be tempted to simply say that is your decision and I am always here for you if you need me. Then move on and talk about something else or end the conversation. Sounds like the son in law has started to make demands / complain about you and she is preparing the way to do what he wants.

EmmasMum12 · 13/12/2021 08:28

Your daughter and SIL won't change until they decide to change. If ever. Stop putting yourself through the pain over and over

Detach. Allow them to get on with their lives give them space

Enjoy your other children and make an independent and happy life for yourself Flowers

muddyford · 13/12/2021 08:28

My stepson and his wife are like this. Dragging up real and imagined slights from years ago. DH tried to stay in touch but I have been NC for some years. They can fester in their own toxic juices.

Totalwasteofpaper · 13/12/2021 08:41

@cansu

She sounds a real pain. Moaning about the hamper is rude. I think on the SIL front, you need to say, I am focusing on the future and I don't think letters about the past would be helpful especially as we are talking about an incident from years ago. If she starts talking about you not seeing new baby, I would be tempted to simply say that is your decision and I am always here for you if you need me. Then move on and talk about something else or end the conversation. Sounds like the son in law has started to make demands / complain about you and she is preparing the way to do what he wants.
She was moaning about the hamper because they want the €€€€ instead - how charming Hmm

They are permanently trying to avoid working and find ways to extract cash from Chopin who they think should quietly FOAD whilst giving them all her money.

For GC: Presents on birthdays and Christmas
For the two ingrates: 50 euros for birthdays and 100euros cash or whatever you spend on DD1 and DD2 individually.

In terms of the letter Chopin - don't send anything. it will be used by LB as "evidence" and another stick to beat you with.

To those saying DD3 needs help and is in an abusive relations- yes, thats true but there is also huge backstory and its very complicated.

BabaykaYaga · 13/12/2021 08:43

I've read your other thread and it's clear that you're putting in an extraordinary amount of effort, matched only by LB's effort in finding offence.

Even if you could go back in time, the way you handled the crying - in - the - bathroom incident was correct! What else should a parent do? How many times have you apologised? Why would one more apology change things? Clearly LB would have manufactured another story to beat you with anyway.

Practically, it's likely best to match their engagement. Send smaller, token gifts. Be as caring about their troubles as they are with yours. Detach from their financial decisions (disasters). Concentrate on your other daughters. They need you too. And your wider family and friends.

I hope you can resolve things with your eldest daughter one day, but unfortunately she may need to hit her own rock bottom in her relationship before she sees things clearly. While she and LB are fixated on you as a common enemy, she may use this as a distraction from the truth of her situation. So going lower contact may help her. I realise this is not an easy time with the pregnancy, but if they're constantly able to discuss the latest incident "dry ham!", "wrong chocolates!" then perhaps this is feeding his narrative?

In the meantime I wish you well and hope you have some nice things planned.

CharityDingle · 13/12/2021 08:51

I read your previous threads. Drop the rope is the only advice I can give. I cannot begin to imagine how difficult all of this is. But you are tormenting yourself by trying and hoping that one day it will resolve itself.
Keep the door open for her. She is in a horrible relationship.

But you have to look after yourself and devote attention to yourself, and your other daughters.

GlorianaCervixia · 13/12/2021 09:00

I'm sorry you're still going through this.

I think your daughter wants a relationship with you but she also needs to believe the narrative SIL has created about you. If she didn't believe him, she'd have to face up to the part she played in treating you and your DH so badly.

I wouldn't challenge her on any of it because that gives her an excuse to scapegoat you. I think it's good advice to grey rock all their attempts to complain about your behaviour - whether it's letters or hampers or money. Just say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and change the subject. Or don't respond at all but let her know you're always there for her if she needs you and you love her. If she behaves appropriately, give her a warm response. Ignore everything else and don't be drawn into defending yourself because he will make sure you can never win that way.

ArabellaScott · 13/12/2021 09:04

@mathanxiety

I don't think your daughter is behaving like a spoiled child. I think she is behaving like someone who is under a huge amount of pressure from an abusive partner.

It sounds to me as if your daughter has found herself a second abusive relationship, and that this husband of hers has taken her off to Ireland to keep you and your daughter apart and isolate her from any friends or support she might have closer to home. He is creating drama, and asking her to choose between him and you.

If I were you, I would try to keep lines of communication open, and do a lot of careful listening. I would stop mentioning how hard you find her distance and the cold shoulder she is giving you. I think this is a story of a young woman being abused but not able to find a way out.

Sympathise with her as she worries about the upcoming birth, as her anxiety around healthcare could be related to general anxiety about her relationship and lack of trust in the world outside her relationship. She sounds terribly unhappy.

Yes.

I feel for you immensely, OP. It must be terribly hard, especially after a hard year already. Flowers

I also feel terribly sorry for your DD, who seems to be from the sounds of it in an abusive/controlling relationship.

She needs to know you are there for her. You can't tell her what to do, to leave would have to be her decision. You could be honest about your concerns about her relationship, though. Is she in denial about it, do you think?

Borland · 13/12/2021 09:15

I haven't seen your other threads, but she didn't tell you she'd had a child for 14 months, knowing that your DH was dying?! That would be it for me, no coming back from that. One of my brother's sounds similar to your daughter, and my dad (and the other siblings) cut him off when he wouldn't come and visit my dying mother and then snubbed her funeral. If you continue trying to stay in your daughter's life it will tear you apart. As hard as it is, you need to protect your own sanity.

Lasair · 13/12/2021 09:24

Your daughter is abusive.

billy1966 · 13/12/2021 09:26

OP,

I think you need to accept that your daughter has chosen her husband and that you need to detach.

I have read your threads and she has been a terrible source of grief.

Your SIL is an odious character but he is your daughter's choice.

She doesn't sound very nice and that is on her.

Leave her to live her life.

You are never going to have any joy and peace in the remainder of your life whilst you allow yourself to be manipulated by them both.

Step back and allow your daughter to live with her choices.

I'm sorry but this is not fixable.

Flowers
Chopinandchampagne · 13/12/2021 09:30

Thank you so much for all of your kind and supportive replies and it is good to see old friends like billy again. Thank you Twillow for letting me have the daughter's viewpoint, which I found very helpful, and also encouraging that eventually you were reconciled with your mum.

Strangely enough, I actually feel less upset than I thought I would. I have obviously been giving the matter a lot of thought, but I am not feeling the anguish and pain which I felt before. I think that because the loss of DH has drained every emotion from me, that I am changed, calmer, that if I can survive that, I can survive anything, that I can and must survive for the sake of my DDs.

My old life has been smashed apart, it has gone, it cannot be resumed. I recall my life before I lost DH as a beautiful dream, a holiday where the sun shone every day, but now I am back to Gatwick alone, in the cold and the dark, needing to get on with reality. I need to rebuild a new life, hard though it is. I am, as at least one pp advised, surrounding myself mainly with people who have positive energy.

I haven't shared these latest developments with my other two DDs, as I don't want to upset them. They have had to cope with a difficult year without their much loved Dad and DD2 had some health problems, which are fortunately now largely resolved. We are focusing on trying to have a good Christmas together. They don't have any dealings with DD1 at all, they will sign a birthday card, but that's the extent of it. However, they had shown interest in going to meet the new baby, and really like the DGDs, which is another source of sadness, that both they and the DGC are missing out on relationships which would be beneficial to all. In fact, DD3 asked if I thought we would be allowed to visit the baby and I said yes, but clearly she was more tuned into the situation than I was.

I wanted to send DD1 and her family some nice gifts, we have always done gifts as a family, not necessarily expensive, but thoughtful. DD2, in particular, has spent months collecting things to give to me and DD3. I know that DD1 doesn't have much in the way of luxury, as LB doesn't really do presents, so I wanted to treat her. She said that her PJs are full of holes, so I have sent her a good pair, for after the birth. But it was probably a mistake, as LB resents me giving anything which has not been preselected and approved. I have, in the past, gone the Amazon route and I said to DD1 that she could have things from Amazon, but that I wanted to send a few personally chosen gifts, or it all became a bit cold and impersonal.

On a more positive note, DD2 and I viewed a house a week ago, upon which she had an offer accepted, so is very excited. She will use her legacy and I will provide the rest of the purchase price. I have offered to do the same for DD3 but she is not ready yet, although she appreciated the offer. I just want them to be secure and to know that they have somewhere to live, if anything happens to me. DD2's house, assuming that everything proceeds smoothly, is just 5 minutes drive away. She has made it clear that she wants to live close to me, that she wants me to be involved, trusts my judgment etc. She has started a Pinterest board and is thrilled about it all, and her enthusiasm is infectious. Her main concern is that if she takes her cat, which of course she must, I will miss him, as he sleeps on my bed most nights!

OP posts:
CallmeHendricksGingleBells · 13/12/2021 09:36

I remember your previous threads and I think that you seem to be acting with enormous grace and tact in an impossible situation.
I'm sorry to say this but your daughter was bloody rude about the Christmas gifts you sent. This is likely to be due to pressure from what sounds like an odd and abusive husband.
You've had some great advice on your threads and although I haven't read every single one on here, I will say this: for your own mental health protection, step back. Concentrate on your other two daughters, be polite and supportive to this daughter if and when she asks for it, and stop opening yourself up to rejection and, frankly rude and hurtful behaviour from her and her husband.
Good luck to you.

IncompleteSenten · 13/12/2021 09:41

I remember your previous thread.
Sadly I think you have to accept that the only way you can be in their lives is if you give them every penny you have, sell everything you have, and understand that when you have nothing left to give them - they will discard you.

Hard as it is really the best thing you can do is let them go now rather than when you have handed over everything you own and they walk away Flowers

FabriqueBelgique · 13/12/2021 09:41

I have not read your other threads OP, but from what I’m reading here, you’re being emotionally abused by your daughter.

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