...to think this could've been rape?

[lostintime0789]

Sat night, I got a little (too!) drunk and the bar I was at, ended up alone as I'd been out with a friend who deserted me!

Long story short, I got chatting to these 2 guys, but one of them in particular was becoming overly friendly, he seemed a nice guy.

Fast-forward around midnight, I was really drunk (even fell over ) and he invited me back to his place - I said no to this as I had to be in work Mon morning but he could come back to mine - I invited him...

We had sex, that I can recall, but the whole night is now pretty much a blur...

Mon morning, wakes up absolutely covered in bruises - around my throat, my legs, hips... thing is, I DO like rough sex so I have possibly told him this hence why he'd gotten so rough??

My mind has just been a bit all over the place these past few days, thinking surely he should have known I was far too drunk for all this to happen? He was pretty much sober btw

AIBU in thinking this, or was it just 2 people, a drunken night and some rough sex?? Just feeling really confused

Even if the OP consented initially and was actively participating she said at one point she woke up and he was inside her.

So he surely would have noticed she had passed out, at that point the consent was null and void.

I'm so sorry that this happened to you OP.
Sometimes people will never get answers or they never know if they can label incidents as rape or sexual assault or not but that doesn't mean that they don't suffer sexual trauma or that their sexual trauma is less real so please speak to someone and get some support if you need to.

We are teetering towards 'poor little woman can't be expected to know her own mind'. Even if she consents and tells you what kind of sex she likes, you 'as the man' must decide if it's ok to have sex with the 'little woman' or not.

Way to go to hand the hard won equality back to the men.

Sleeplessem

You weren't there. You have NO idea if she consented or not, Christ she doesn't even remember. Maybe all men should carry a breathalyser with them to check the toxicity level of a woman before they have sex with her?

@SpookyPumpkinPants

We are teetering towards 'poor little woman can't be expected to know her own mind'. Even if she consents and tells you what kind of sex she likes, you 'as the man' must decide if it's ok to have sex with the 'little woman' or not.

Way to go to hand the hard won equality back to the men.

Sleeplessem

You weren't there. You have NO idea if she consented or not, Christ she doesn't even remember. Maybe all men should carry a breathalyser with them to check the toxicity level of a woman before they have sex with her?

Somewhat agree with this. I'm not sure it helps women in general to consider them passive vessels that men do sex to.

I've never been asked for consent in my life, or asked for it myself. I'm uneasy with the way this aspect of human relationships seems to be evolving.

Could the bruises be from falling over and knocking yourself whilst drunk? I, like another previous poster have had ONS whilst drunk and wouldn’t consider it rape. However, how are you feeling about it all now. Did you agree to stay in contact etc?

I was in a very similar situation sadly, although I was staying at his as he was a ‘friend’ all I remember is waking up vomiting down myself with him inside me. I do believe it’s rape. How can someone get consent with someone that drunk/unconscious. What sort of person wants to have sex with someone unconscious?

Take care of yourself. I didn’t even try to chase any conviction and after reading the posts here bloody glad I didn’t. Lesson learnt, better friends, people I trust around me. Get support, checks and well done for getting the morning after pill, I ended up having to have an abortion about 5 weeks later.

@SpookyPumpkinPants

We are teetering towards 'poor little woman can't be expected to know her own mind'. Even if she consents and tells you what kind of sex she likes, you 'as the man' must decide if it's ok to have sex with the 'little woman' or not.

Way to go to hand the hard won equality back to the men.

Sleeplessem

You weren't there. You have NO idea if she consented or not, Christ she doesn't even remember. Maybe all men should carry a breathalyser with them to check the toxicity level of a woman before they have sex with her?

Oh good god!

The law literally says the opposite to you!

One last time: If she does not remember then she was in no fit state to consent! Would she have been deemed in sound mind to write a will? No. Sound mind to consent to surgery? No. Sound mind to purchase a property? No. Therefore she was not in sound mind to consent to any sort of sexual activity. This is the legal definition of consent. Please visit rape crisis UK for full clarification of what entails and what does not entail consent. I think you’ll find it informative.

The woman woke up to a man having sex with her! How you people think you can consent to anything if you are unconscious is fucking ridiculous.

Why is the bar of morality set so unbelievably low for men that women are actively trying to protect a man who meets the legal definition of a rapist with some wishy washy oh she could have consented, the poor lad might have got confused bollox? NO. The woman was too drunk to remember she was therefore too drunk to consent.

How you get woman doesn’t know her own mind from this is baffling.

I completely agree with if a person is too drunk then isn't not consent - my question is, what if the man is equally as drunk? Is it fair/right that a drunk mans opinion holds more weight than a drink woman's?

What happens then. I can't be alone in having had drunk sex and in the morning thinking "why did I do that". It was not rape. I did consent at the time.

This is not with respect to the OP's case, but more a thought based on the subsequent conversation. Please feel free to delete if it reads as in any way victim blaming - that's not my intention.

Some posters on here should seriously have a word with themselves. De railing a thread made by a person in obvious distress to argue amongst each other is showing mumsnet at its worst.
I'm aware people can be self absorbed but this thread takes it to a whole new level.

This is what I don’t get, so you can’t have sex with a drunk person at all or it’s rape? Surely many of us have had drunken sex? People go clubbing all the time and bring someone home and have a ONS is that rape? I’ve slept with people when Ive been drunk and regretted it the next day but I don’t consider it rape. Where do you draw the line? If op was too drunk then she wouldn’t know if the guy was equally as drunk?

Where do you draw the line?

At whether or not the woman consented. And a person who's completely passed out and couldn't consent to a cup of tea isn't capable of consenting to sex.

A man who's equally drunk to a passed-out woman isn't capable of having sex, because he's passed out.

@Sleeplessem let me be clear. THE LAW DOES NOT SAY THAT.

Not remembering does not mean you couldn't consent. You can be really drunk and still consent. In the same way as you are responsible for any crimes you commit when drunk. It is ridiculous to suggest you cannot have sex with people when you or they are drunk.

Now, caveats to that are about your level of intoxication. If you are SOOOOO drunk that you are nearly unconscious that would likely be rape. If you have been forcibly intoxicated either by fooling or forcing, that would likely be rape.

Rape is horrific. Rape is destructive. Only the OP can answer whether she was raped.

But people on here are saying you shouldn’t have sex with someone that is drunk regardless as they can’t consent, whether passed out or not

CPS does say

‘ A complainant does not consent if they are incapacitated through drink. The prosecutor should consider carefully whether the complainant retains the capacity to consent R v Bree [2007] EWCA Crim 804 paragraph 34.

A complainant does not need to be unconscious through drink to lose their capacity to consent. Capacity to consent may evaporate before a complainant becomes unconscious. A prosecutor must consider the complainant’s state of mind at the time of the alleged assault. R v Bree paragraph 34’

Incapacitation is the key here, ie if you are too fall down drunk to consent to anything. Now obviously to your point, drunk sex isn’t unequivocally rape and shouldn’t be interpreted as such. Incapacitated sex however is a whole other ballgame. Not remembering isn’t directly indicative of rape- rather a real ropey grey area.

The myths, victim blaming and general bs on this thread is off the charts.

OP, I hope you're OK today.

@TurnUpTurnip

But people on here are saying you shouldn’t have sex with someone that is drunk regardless as they can’t consent, whether passed out or not

Yes, people should avoid having sex with other people where there is doubt about their ability to consent.

If a person is drunk, best wait until they sober up. Especially if they are a stranger. The worst that can happen if you refrain is that you won't have sex. Quelle horreur. The worst that can happen if you go ahead is you rape someone.

It's always wrong to have sex with someone who has passed out. Unconsciousness means no consent it possible.

A similar thing happened to me a few years ago and I concluded it wasn't rape (but he definitely pre-empted sex and plied me with alcohol), but this thread has confused me now. I felt weird about it for a long time and no longer speak to the friend in question. I've had loads of very drunken sex that I fully consented to, but this time...no.

I hope you're ok OP. I'm sorry people are arguing instead of supporting you. I'm not going to put my 2p in because I find it all quite a confusing topic.

@DrSbaitso

Where do you draw the line?

At whether or not the woman consented. And a person who's completely passed out and couldn't consent to a cup of tea isn't capable of consenting to sex.

A man who's equally drunk to a passed-out woman isn't capable of having sex, because he's passed out.

They can be sexually assaulted, though.

They can be sexually assaulted, though.

Yes, but in the context of that exchange, a poster was asking if a man should be held responsible for having sex with someone if he was "equally drunk".

[quote snowdropsandcrocuses]@Sleeplessem let me be clear. THE LAW DOES NOT SAY THAT.

Not remembering does not mean you couldn't consent. You can be really drunk and still consent. In the same way as you are responsible for any crimes you commit when drunk. It is ridiculous to suggest you cannot have sex with people when you or they are drunk.

Now, caveats to that are about your level of intoxication. If you are SOOOOO drunk that you are nearly unconscious that would likely be rape. If you have been forcibly intoxicated either by fooling or forcing, that would likely be rape.

Rape is horrific. Rape is destructive. Only the OP can answer whether she was raped.[/quote]
Thank you for informative posts without hysteria. This is a very difficult area of law and thanks for shedding light on it.

OP hope you're doing okay.

Hey all I'm a little better today though still sore for the poster who suggested my bruises could've been a result of my falling - No! I fell & hurt my leg - NOT my neck/face.

I admit, I DID consent (or at least give the impression I wanted it) initially, but when I blacked out, surely he should've stopped??

I do recall telling him 'no' again and again as I had to be up early fir work but he was insistent and kept on penetrating me.

I once had an ex around to my place, and I was a little tipsy - I tried it on and you know what he said? He said no because I was intoxicated and did not want to take advantage! How much of a complete comparison is this?!

I'm waiting to get some advice, but will definitely not be taking this further lawfully, unfortunately

I do recall telling him 'no' again and again as I had to be up early fir work but he was insistent and kept on penetrating me.

The lack of consent couldn't be clearer.

I'm sorry, OP. This is not your fault.

OP sweetheart you blacked out, consent was revoked then and there. We’ll leave aside could you consent as you were intoxicated to the point of passing out. You passed out- he should have stopped.

You also said no, and he kept on, as PP said the lack of consent could not have been clearer.

Despite the ridiculous comments upthread, this is not your fault, the man is a rapist.

You decide how you want to move forward. Maybe some counselling might help you process things? I hope you heal from this

@LobsterNapkin

I don't think there is any way for you to know.

The bar for "too drunk to consent" is fairly high, and can even edge into the level of "incapacitated". And the person needs to be able to see you are that drunk which isn't always easy, some people can be in a black-out but still seem ok to others.

In terms of legal cases, being drunk is a real problem because it means that you can't give reliable evidence. So in this instance, maybe you were passed out or incapacitated and he raped you, but you can't testify to that because you have no memory of it, and even your memory before that might be less reliable than you realize.

Basically, if you can't be sure, neither can a court.

Correct

I wish people would stop saying it’s rape. Without knowing how intoxicated the op was we can’t say.

She told him no repeatedly and he kept entering her.

The alcohol is actually irrelevant.

@Northernparent68 even on a really long thread its easy to click through the OP's posts. I think you missed the one at 2028 where she said she said 'no' repeatedly.