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Original poster

...to think this could've been rape?

222 replies

lostintime0789 · 09/11/2021 13:52

Sat night, I got a little (too!) drunk and the bar I was at, ended up alone as I'd been out with a friend who deserted me!

Long story short, I got chatting to these 2 guys, but one of them in particular was becoming overly friendly, he seemed a nice guy.

Fast-forward around midnight, I was really drunk (even fell over Blush) and he invited me back to his place - I said no to this as I had to be in work Mon morning but he could come back to mine - I invited him... Sad

We had sex, that I can recall, but the whole night is now pretty much a blur...

Mon morning, wakes up absolutely covered in bruises - around my throat, my legs, hips... thing is, I DO like rough sex so I have possibly told him this hence why he'd gotten so rough?? Hmm

SadMy mind has just been a bit all over the place these past few days, thinking surely he should have known I was far too drunk for all this to happen? He was pretty much sober btw

AIBU in thinking this, or was it just 2 people, a drunken night and some rough sex?? Just feeling really confused SadConfusedBlush

OP posts:
Puffalicious · 09/11/2021 19:24

sleeplessem toxicity? Where exactly have I uttered anything toxic? Teetering on victim blaming? I merely said, as other PP have, that the OP isn't sure if she consented. If she said yes it muddies the waters. Indeed consent can be withdrawn at any point and if not heeded that is rape but consent at some point muddies the waters.

Where's your condemnation of PP who have clearly said she shouldn't have invited him back/ drunk so much/ been alone? That not victim blaming then?

I think the point here is to support the OP not bicker.

And abrogate? We're not in court. FFS.

Original poster
lostintime0789 · 09/11/2021 19:25

Hey guys, sorry for my lack of response, been in work until 5, didn't get home until almost 7 Hmm

Thank you for all your comments and don't get me wrong, I'm ok (I think), and not looking to take it further but my head's just been a bit all over the place since Sunday.

You guys are 100% right though in what you say, I realise for a guy who seemed to be a good bloke initially, was clearly such a grade-A prick Angry

The reason I wouldn't take this further is because I take responsibility for being so stupid enough to get so drunk (that's if I wasn't spiked), inviting a stranger back and basically putting myself in this situation; I'm a 38 yr old mum & should know better BlushSad

OP posts:
Original poster
lostintime0789 · 09/11/2021 19:31

@MillieMumsnet

Sorry to interrupt your thread, OP Flowers , we just wanted to remind everyone that we do not advocate victim blaming on Mumsnet, and link to our We Believe You campaign – please do have a read. We will remove victim-blaming posts, so please do report any of these that you see, and we will take a closer look.
Thank you, much appreciated Daffodil
OP posts:
CheltenhamLady · 09/11/2021 19:32

@Sleeplessem

Of course, it doesn't mean it didn't happen, but If the OP had said she had been raped that is one thing, but she hasn't said that. She has said she doesn't know if she consented.

She also said
We had sex, that I can recall'

It is up to the OP to judge if she believes she has been raped.

madmumofteens · 09/11/2021 19:38

I am so sorry that this happened to you OP please be kind to yourself!! I really hope there is a special kind of hell for men who think it is ok to do what he did to you it is not 🥺 x

Sleeplessem · 09/11/2021 19:41

It’s up to OP if she wants to take it further legally speaking and it’s up to OP how she wants to process all of this moving forward however legally speaking she did not consent and that’s the end of it. It’s important that OP knows she’s not to blame for anything and in no way was she inviting anything upon herself and her feelings are completely valid and shouldn’t be dismissed as one PP put as ‘someone who regretted it the next day’

Sorry OP, i hope you get some support to help you process all of this, take care Flowers

Sleeplessem · 09/11/2021 19:46

@Puffalicious

sleeplessem toxicity? Where exactly have I uttered anything toxic? Teetering on victim blaming? I merely said, as other PP have, that the OP isn't sure if she consented. If she said yes it muddies the waters. Indeed consent can be withdrawn at any point and if not heeded that is rape but consent at some point muddies the waters.

Where's your condemnation of PP who have clearly said she shouldn't have invited him back/ drunk so much/ been alone? That not victim blaming then?

I think the point here is to support the OP not bicker.

And abrogate? We're not in court. FFS.

Because there is out and out victim blaming and more tacit victim blaming, which is what you are doing. Out of respect for OP I’m not going to get into this with you.

But in the general sense you cannot consent to something if you are unconscious, I’m confident finding out or waking up to find someone having sex with your when you were blacked out is the epitome of not ‘heeding’ (great choice of words) consent being withdrawn.

Original poster
lostintime0789 · 09/11/2021 19:49

@Sleeplessem

It’s up to OP if she wants to take it further legally speaking and it’s up to OP how she wants to process all of this moving forward however legally speaking she did not consent and that’s the end of it. It’s important that OP knows she’s not to blame for anything and in no way was she inviting anything upon herself and her feelings are completely valid and shouldn’t be dismissed as one PP put as ‘someone who regretted it the next day’

Sorry OP, i hope you get some support to help you process all of this, take care Flowers

Thank you 🙏 and yes, that comment was somewhat harsh HmmSadDaffodil
OP posts:
Puffalicious · 09/11/2021 20:33

Sleepingem we'll need to agree to disagree about 'tacit' victim blaming.

The important thing here is that the OP feels supported whatever her decision moving forward.

NeverChange · 09/11/2021 23:46

I'm very sorry this happened to you.

If you aren't in a position to give consent, then it is rape.

I am gobsmacked how many people still don't get this.

Nothing mitigates lack of consent.

Sleeplessem · 09/11/2021 23:47

@Puffalicious I posted a link above on what counts as consent and what doesn’t perhaps check it out 👍🏻

Gilda152 · 10/11/2021 00:01

He's a knob for taking advantage of you whilst you were drunk, I think you have consented but that consent was given under the influence and the argument is whether he knew you were too drunk or not. It would be very very hard to prove or disprove either way I imagine.

More than that, I don't think anyone could say with any real clarity but regardless, I'm sorry for the feelings and emotions you are going through now, it is tough and I think many of us have been there and you're right it can be very very confusing.

Puffalicious · 10/11/2021 00:04

[quote Sleeplessem]@Puffalicious I posted a link above on what counts as consent and what doesn’t perhaps check it out 👍🏻[/quote]
I know what consent is. Don't be so patronising with your thumbs up. I merely have a different opinion.

Sleeplessem · 10/11/2021 00:11

You’ve got a different opinion than rapecrisis uk? Ok then, bold.

ThisIsNotConsent · 10/11/2021 00:28

The amount of victim blaming from women who are rape apologists is both shocking and depressing.

Anyone who thinks this man is not a rapist - do you set your bar that low for the men in your lives? Having sex with a woman too drunk to consent and leaving her with bruises all over her body? Forcibly penetrating a woman who is either unconscious or sleeping? So if your DPs or DHs said they had done this to a woman in the past you would think that was acceptable behaviour? Do you think your DHs would be capable of behaviour like this?

It isn't just unacceptable and morally reprehensible, it's rape and he is a rapist. Sex without consent is always rape, no matter whose house you are in, or what you are wearing, or what type of sex you usually like, or any previous conversations with a man.

And for PP who asked (in a huge and frankly bizarre reach to exonerate this man) could you have got the bruises from falling over. Fucking hell. You don't get bruises on your fucking throat and legs and hips from falling over. You could see fucking fingerprints in my bruises like that - thumb prints on my throat, on the front of my arms and inside my wrists, fingerprints on the back of them, and hips and inner thighs.

I covered them up and didn't tell anyone as I was ashamed. I lied about the bruises on my face. This was a man who came back to my house and I was drunk. Now I am able to say it was rape, no matter where it took place and what conversations I had with him before.

If you do not or cannot consent to sex it is rape and I desperately wish women would stand up for other women and call it what it is, instead of trying to minimise or excuse men who do this. Set the fucking bar higher, for all of us and protect ourselves and our DDs.

Gilda152 · 10/11/2021 00:38

How do you know OP didn't consent @ThisIsNotConsent? She said she may have told him she liked rough sex but can't remember, so she doesn't know if she did or didn't and obviously he's going to say she did. It's not about OPs character (well not in my eyes) it's the very real truth that whilst consent must be given if you can't remember whether you did or you didn't and the other party will say you did... What do you do?

ThisIsNotConsent · 10/11/2021 01:12

@Gilda152 Perhaps you could educate yourself by reading the link to rape crisis a poster kindly linked to upthread. It's very clear about consent. It's only one page. You could also look at the MNHQ We Believe You campaign.

The very fact of someone waking up in the morning and being aware of how very drunk they were, makes them aware that they couldn't have consented, by that very fact. How could it be anything other than rape and why are you so keen to try and explain it away or minimise it?

Consent isn't some confusing grey area where poor men just can't read the signals and women are responsible for men's behaviour whatever happens. This man wasn't drunk, he knew what he was doing. This is violence and this is rape.

Having memories like this and having bruises like this is horrifying. You know they have hit you and held you down and choked you. You know that they have forcibly penetrated you while you were unconscious (and how can anyone consent to that?) That's not someone slipping and falling, that's a man manoeuvring an unconscious woman and forcing himself into her. My ex knocked me unconscious in the bathroom and then had sex with me on the floor - did I consent to this by having had a sexual relationship with him already? Do you think I consented to that as I was in his house and had had sex with him previously - you genuinely think that wouldn't be rape?!

It's fucking revolting to think other women are minimising this and excusing this man and all the other fucking men doing this. It actually makes me physically sick.

Gilda152 · 10/11/2021 01:38

It's fucking revolting that you are assuming I don't know anything about consent and non consensual sex isn't it. But here we are. I find your patronising post disgraceful to be honest. I'm sorry you had bad things happen to you, but that doesn't excuse your attacking me and claiming that I'm minimising OPs experience. I am not. Perhaps reread what I said with an objective viewpoint and understand what I actually said. If you can't, I can't help you and we'll have to agree to leave it there.

ThisIsNotConsent · 10/11/2021 02:01

What you actually said? You said to op I think you have consented. So don't talk about objective viewpoints.

Yes, let's leave it there as I will never agree with views like yours. It's so frustrating to me that women minimise and excuse the behaviour of men like this.

snowdropsandcrocuses · 10/11/2021 02:22

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ThisIsNotConsent · 10/11/2021 02:35

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madisonbridges · 10/11/2021 02:49

@Sleeplessem
If someone is intoxicated they can’t consent

I don't know anything about the law so I'm asking this because I'm curious and I'm not relating this to the op and their situation at all.

Does this mean that a man could claim a woman raped him because he was drunk?
What happens if both parties claim to be drunk. Did they rape each other?
If one party claims the other raped them because they were too drunk to consent, can a defence then be that the accused was drunk as well so couldn't tell the accusor was drunk?

snowdropsandcrocuses · 10/11/2021 02:58

[quote madisonbridges]@Sleeplessem
If someone is intoxicated they can’t consent

I don't know anything about the law so I'm asking this because I'm curious and I'm not relating this to the op and their situation at all.

Does this mean that a man could claim a woman raped him because he was drunk?
What happens if both parties claim to be drunk. Did they rape each other?
If one party claims the other raped them because they were too drunk to consent, can a defence then be that the accused was drunk as well so couldn't tell the accusor was drunk?[/quote]
Men cannot be raped by women. (Unless we're talking about transgender). Rape requires a penis to penetrate a hole.

I repeat, being drunk is not an automatic inability to consent. Even being too drunk to remember. Even being so drunk you were wobbly and making shit decisions. A court will decide if you were too drunk. It would require evidence that you absolutely could Not consent. Being unconscious would Be a good example.

madisonbridges · 10/11/2021 03:16

@snowdropsandcrocuses. Thanks for your reply. I was shocked that women can't legally rape men, but you're right. The law doesn't apply to them. You learn something every day and I suppose that answers all my questions.

snowdropsandcrocuses · 10/11/2021 03:22

[quote madisonbridges]@snowdropsandcrocuses. Thanks for your reply. I was shocked that women can't legally rape men, but you're right. The law doesn't apply to them. You learn something every day and I suppose that answers all my questions.[/quote]
Having said that, women can be an accessory to rape and can also commit sexual assault by penetration which both carry similar sentences.

In my experience though, I have never seen a female defendant. That's not to say it doesn't happen but rather to say it is primarily a male offence. The only cases I really hear of involving women suspects are some kind of mother/child abuse and almost always involves a male partner. Women just don't get the same power trip in these offences.