How to be in charge with FIL. (Trigger warning CSA)

[Needanewname87]

So, I have a shitty situation to deal with. My FIL has a historic conviction for child sex offences. I don’t know exactly what happened. No one will tell me. I do know it was 25+ years ago, he is the victim’s uncle and was convicted and given a suspended jail term (so he didn’t actually go to jail). He’s not been caught doing anything illegal since. His family seem certain he has never repeated that behavior, and are happy to see him with the rule that he is never left unsupervised with any children. I have a newborn baby. I had naively assumed that our baby would have nothing to do with this relative because that was the obvious conclusion for me. Turns out my DH feels differently and wants our baby to have a relationship with their paternal grandfather. He thinks constant supervision is enough. I think it would be better if they never have any contact whatsoever. But the problem is I can’t insist on zero contact because if my DH wanted to divorce me over this he would be able to take our child to see FIL as often as he liked. So it’s pointless me insisting to the point where it breaks us up. Which it might. I honestly thought DH would come to the conclusion he couldn’t possibly have our child around his dad and he honestly thought I would be comfortable with them having a constantly supervised relationship. I met FIL many times before finding out about his crime. I never liked him because he’s old fashioned and makes shitty vaguely sexual comments about my appearance and women in general. In the same way many older men do. Shitty behavior. But too vague to cause an argument over. Not enough to be classed as harassment. Just bog standard shitty entitled male behavior. So I’ve got used to biting my tongue and just not laughing or smiling at him when he makes that kind of remark. Now I know he’s also (or was in the past) capable of horrible entitled sexual behavior towards children I need to be different in my interactions with him. Not polite DIL who won’t laugh at sexist jokes but who won’t rock the boat. I need to be the scary mama bear you don’t even dream of messing with. I want rules that FIL won’t like. Like no pictures with our baby ever. And no holding the baby/having toddler on his knees. Ever. Ideally no physical contact ever. I’m certainly not going to let him touch me ever again - so no hug goodbye kind of thing. No meeting in his house where I find it harder to be assertive. He’s not welcome in my house. I need non confrontational ways to hold these boundaries so that my DH will be satisfied that our baby was able to meet their (extremely flawed) paternal grandfather, but without me freaking out and screaming ´you disgusting paedo’ and ruining our marriage and losing even more control over the situation. Any suggestions?

@Justilou1

I agree. And children (of all ages) need to know it is NOT their job to protect their parent.

I'm willing to bet his claims he was also abused by his father only came out when he was caught? That's basically a myth thats come about because a lot of perpetrators have CLAIMED they were abused as a misdirect experts now believe they are no more likely to have been abused than is the case among the general public statistically that myth is basically being debunked

I immediately thought this too - it's the poor me, bullshit psychology default go-to for child sex abusers. I imagine it's often a lie.

You can still tell him "you're not allowed to comment on my appearance"

To be very blunt op; you appear tk gave known about the CSA before you got pregnant by this man's sin. You also knew he wants a relationship with his father. You also knew (it seems) that the father was suggestive or sleazy towards you in your partners presence and he reacted with a relatively mild verbal reproof, and a continuation of the relationship .....

So it was very much within the realm of possibility that your partner would not take a hard line, no relationship approach with his child/ren ..... just as he's doing. You chose to stay with him, abd chose to bring a child into this situation with him.

May sound very harsh, but that was a major fuck up. There are many other men in the world, you didn't have to have a child with one with a paedo dad, who still has a relationship with him.

Within unlike the victim's nuclear family (and your partners Mum apparently) your partner is a supporter, essentially of the child sex abuser, someone who still maintains a relationship with him. He could talk to his cousin about what his Dad did but has he ever? Sounds like he's gone for "I want a Dad more, and he never did it to me so ..".

That is deeply flawed/dysfunctional, and while its understandable abd there's lots of psychology behind it; it makes him an unsuitable life partner, and an unsuitable father.

Having swept through that very big stop sign with your continued relationship with him, and even worse pregnancy by him; all I can suggest at this point is the very careful and well thought out plan that a couple of other posters have mentioned - to get your family the fk out of dodge, to the UK or elsewhere so the vast majority of your life is not a few hrs drive away from the child sex abuser, and to try your utmost to control.contact on the visits you can't avoid.

*Within your partner's family ..

I was Abused by my grandad also sometimes whilst supervised

My parents were none the wiser at the time.

My life is
A shit show it's effected it so badly it's unreal

Please
Please do all you can to not
Let this happen

@Needanewname87

DH definitely does not believe his father is innocent. His family know the abuse happened. The bit I find naive is them trusting he deeply regrets doing it and would not repeat it. No one trusts him enough to leave a child alone with him, even for a couple of minutes. That’s their safeguarding line. I want more protections.

If you have that sick attraction to children that's not something that goes away. You do or you don't.

I'd be worried what he's thinking whilst
Near
Your child

@TrufflesAndToast you've clearly not been in this situation and have a very black & white approach

It's often not that simple - especially as the authorities don't deal with them!

Op I'm glad if I've helped you even a little.

You're right fil is not the only risk out there.

I was very hot on ensuring dd understood things like bodily autonomy and to tell me if ANYONE ever made her feel uncomfortable etc

Sadly there are (contrary to the opinions of those fortunate enough to not have experienced such things who will say "there's not a paedo on every corner you know) way way too many of these type of people around

I think there's MORE than one on every corner

@SleepingBunnies21 it's something I discussed with an expert many years ago when the myth still very much prevailed even among experts. This was nearly 30 years ago. He said he didn't believe most of the claims as they usually only were claimed when the person was being accused/charged with such crimes - the timing was too convenient and in his opinion and based on his experience with ACTUAL victims they most often didn't display any of the indicators of having been abused themselves either he was very sceptical

There are also different types of offenders. Some have a "type" some don't - this is a bone of contention in my family as my sister especially can't accept that if he abused me why wouldn't he also sexually abuse her? But they don't abuse every child that they could necessarily. Best explanation I can find for that is that they are expert "profilers"

I was always a quiet, shy type, didn't have lots of friends, not one to "Make a fuss" very introspective

Sister was always more extrovert, more confident etc plus she and mum were v close, so 2 factors -

1 she would have told!

2 she would have told mum and with their closeness mum would have believed her

I think dad knew that and that's why he didn't risk abusing her

The aforementioned expert also said there were "lazy" abusers - the ones who didn't actively seek out victims but would abuse one if they were given the opportunity, like a relative, and "active seekers" the ones who went out of their way to access victims, like those that get into jobs/volunteer roles where they can be alone with kids. He considered them more dangerous as they were more prolific in their abuse and were also more likely to be risk takers

There's also different levels of abuse that differs depending on the type of abuser. I was thankfully never raped but i think that was because he didn't want to risk leaving clear evidence that couldn't have been explained away. But other forms/levels of abuse are still very distressing and damaging.

I even bought into some of the myths myself until I disclosed myself and was referred to expert counsellors

Eg for a long time i thought because I wasn't raped it wasn't "really" abuse and I still struggle with that sometimes

but storming out at a family event because someone has said it to you would be pretty universally seen as over reacting

Look, we all know there is a middle ground between biting your tongue and storming out. There was really no reason to continue seeing this dirty old man other than to please your husband. Your husbands weak objections have done nothing but communicate that he can get away with it.

Regarding visits with your baby, your husband is prioritising his dad and you are prioritising your husband.

Asking for advice on how to keep your child safe around a known pedo is utterly ridiculous.

OP, are you seriously saying that you believe your DH would divorce you if you put your foot down and told him no child of yours is going to spend time with a convicted paedophile?

If so, you have way bigger problems that just your DH exposing your child to your FIL but I understand your concern about losing all control over who your child sees. However, one very unpleasant but effective remedy (that I'm afraid I would probably use if the marriage was over anyway assuming there was no law preventing me) is to inform your DH that you will tell all and sundry exactly what his father has done should you ever catch wind that he has taken your child to see him while in his care, so that others can at least protect her to the best of their ability where he refuses to do so.

If you don't actually think it would end your marriage anyway, then what is this thread all about? Fuck keeping the peace.

You're currently negotiating levels of paedophile access to your child. That's the insanity to which your DH has brought you. I'm surprised you're not more openly furious with your DH. It's all very well preparing one's children for protecting themselves from unknown paedophiles as much as possible (which I applaud) but part of that is not knowingly increasing the risk as parents by introducing them to these disgusting predators socially!

ot's something I discussed with an expert many years ago when the myth still very much prevailed even among experts. This was nearly 30 years ago. He said he didn't believe most of the claims as they usually only were claimed when the person was being accused/charged with such crimes - the timing was too convenient and in his opinion and based on his experience with ACTUAL victims they most often didn't display any of the indicators of having been abused themselves either he was very sceptical

I don't know about experts (I certainly hope its fully debunked/produces skepticism from them) but you often still hear it rolled out as a line by lay people. I wonder has op's partner rolled it out (with a little help.from Daddy) as part of the family minimisation, excusing, sympathy for the perpetrator routine.

Op you're now stuck with this deluded, dysfunctional man until your child is 18 (at the very least, I still wouldn't want any potentially vulnerable young adult around his father) unless this creature snuffs ot before then.

If you have more children by him, this will keep expanding.

Have you got any pretexts you could use to get your family out of the same country at least.

Has he spoken to his cousin (presuming he of she ia willing to speak)?

What an absolute fuck you from him and the other supporters within the family, on top.of the abuse, to have a relationship with the father, and bring kids around him. At worst they could feel like they are not believed, in spite of going through what it took to get a conviction ... at best that their abuse doesn't matter.

Why diesbt he speak to them, or see if he can access info from the case to see the statements his cousin made and the charges?

Or would that require him to pull his head out of the sand for too long?

You're currently negotiating levels of paedophile access to your child. That's the insanity to which your DH has brought you.

The fact that he has a relationship with his convicted paedoohile Dad at all, and tolerates inappropriate/uncomfortable comments towards his partner while visiting was a gigantic red flag that he was not partner material let alone father of your children material.

An acknowledgement of that might be useful going forward in this damage limitation exercise.

What a difficult situation!.. if your husband is so desperate for you FIL to be in your child's life I would be demanding to know exactly what the nature of the conviction was.. you can supervise all day but he could be having inappropriate thoughts etc which is just vile.

I find it odd that your husband is ok with this, does he know the nature of conviction? Xxx

I sought legal advice about returning to Australia with my kids from the Netherlands. Even though my DH, kids and I were all Aussie citizens, The Hague Convention still applied and the kids would have been treated as Dutch residents. The only way I would have been able to do so would have been to prove that they were in danger of exposure to physical, psychological or sexual harm. I would say that @Needanewname87 CAN do this, in theory. Her DH has been “programmed” through family apologist/acceptance to believe that his father is genuinely remorseful. @Needanewname87 has expressed her feelings about his behaviour towards her, and that is repeatedly minimised. There is a family culture of tolerating inappropriate comments designed to put women “in their place” as sexual objects, etc, and abode by the wishes of this man despite his abhorrent and dangerous history. The fact that nobody has advised @Needanewname87 what these crimes actually were is telling also. She has a right to know the potential danger her child risks around this person if she leaves her DH and he were to leave her child unattended in his presence. The fact that he is holding the threat of divorce over her head if she chooses to ban a sexual predator is abusive behaviour also. I genuinely think that @Needanewname87 SHOULD get legal advice on this, as well as psychological advice.

You wrote about being in charge, not meeting at his house etc.

If meetings are to happen then you decide the time, place and duration.

Not in your house either as you may feel his presence there taints it.

A walk round a park/zoo. Baby in pram the whole time. You, and he, arrive there separately - no giving lifts. You have to be there - no giving into offers - you put your feet up for the afternoon sort of thing. You need to be there to see what happens.

How close does he live? Hopefully not too close so that you are under weekly pressure to meet up. Hopefully not do far that the next request is a bed for the weekend.

All the best on this one.

To be honest OP, I’d visit FIL on my own and tell him that if he spoke lewdly to me or touched my child or asked to touch my child I’d have posters with his photo on explaining that he was a convicted paedophile all over his home neighbourhood faster than he would believe. prepare a poster to show him and take it with you. Make him afraid of you. Make him want to avoid you and your child

OP, if you are still pregnant, I would be tempted to leave France, divorce DH and move somewhere else that offers more advantageous parental protections in terms of requiring permission from both parents to travel out of the country. I would also proactively find out if you were to deny DH permission to travel with you DC because you have a real fear he will take him to see his paedophile father unsupervised that you would not be deemed obstructive and seek to have it in any contact order that your DH cannot travel out of the country with your DC. I would be exploring also keeping him off the birth certificate and ensuring he has no parental rights. Some countries will have laws in your favour. It seems overkill but I don't trust the legal systems sometimes to keep children safe even when a risk is known in the interest of proving some weird balanced approach and allowing abusers access to children who go on to abuse them. I would be doing my best to ensure DH does not have legal rights because of his stance, and how easily blinded and committed to minimising his dads actions, his neglect could bring your child harm.

For a purely practical point with a newborn do you have a sling? If you wear your baby in a sling and keep him in your arms for the first visit you will be able to have control over his physical safety and be able to more easily enforce your totally reasonable boundaries.

@Helpimfalling

I was Abused by my grandad also sometimes whilst supervised

My parents were none the wiser at the time.

My life is
A shit show it's effected it so badly it's unreal

Please
Please do all you can to not
Let this happen

This is exactly why I couldn't trust your DH. With all the minimising going on, if something were to actually happen to one of the grandkids or your DC, would you trust any of these people to actually say anything or conceal it to protect their much loved father?

DH's demands your DC know and spend their time with GF knowing what he did, would you even trust your DH if the worst were to happen to come to you and be honest or to continue to minimise, conceal and defend his father at your DC's expense?

DH said if we refuse all contact then our child may be upset they did not meet their grandfather

But he thinks your child will be totally fine with being raped by their grandfather, and agree it was totally worth it to have a relationship with him beforehand? Because that’s the risk isn’t it?

Honestly, it is very straightforward. Your DC asks why they don’t see grandfather, you say “because he is an evil man who went to prison for hurting children, and we knew if you met him he would probably seriously hurt you too one day”. Give them the details when they are in their teens.

Use that as your leverage. That's what the family want desperately to avoid? Make it clear that if they ever undermine you, you will be making this public in a big way.

This. Have absolutely no shame about creating a massive spectacle. It’s very freeing!

If FIL tries to take baby, “no, I’m afraid I can’t let a convicted child rapist hold my child”. Loudly. Not shouting, but firmly and loud enough that a passerby could hear. Any arguments “No FIL, we all know you have been convicted for abusing other children in the family, you are not going to have the opportunity to abuse mine”. Just be completely open and matter of fact about this. It’s FIL’s dirty little secret, not yours. You have nothing to be ashamed of here.

I’d also bring it up with MIL, the wider family, and mutual friends. If DH is secure in his opinion, no need to hide it from everyone is there? Unless actually he knows this is all kinds of fucked up but is still trying to appease his father like he did as a child. The only person who is benefiting from all of this secrecy is FIL.

I believe the first thing you need is to ask your MIL what he actually did and get a copy of the court records.

Does your DH know the chance of his child never wanting to speak to him again is very highly when the child finds out he knowingly encourage her to be around a paedophile?

TBF I don't see you enforcing it as you have tolerated his FIL behaviour towards you and your DH has trampled your boundaries to get you to compromise on something so appalling.