How to be in charge with FIL. (Trigger warning CSA)

[Needanewname87]

So, I have a shitty situation to deal with. My FIL has a historic conviction for child sex offences. I don’t know exactly what happened. No one will tell me. I do know it was 25+ years ago, he is the victim’s uncle and was convicted and given a suspended jail term (so he didn’t actually go to jail). He’s not been caught doing anything illegal since. His family seem certain he has never repeated that behavior, and are happy to see him with the rule that he is never left unsupervised with any children. I have a newborn baby. I had naively assumed that our baby would have nothing to do with this relative because that was the obvious conclusion for me. Turns out my DH feels differently and wants our baby to have a relationship with their paternal grandfather. He thinks constant supervision is enough. I think it would be better if they never have any contact whatsoever. But the problem is I can’t insist on zero contact because if my DH wanted to divorce me over this he would be able to take our child to see FIL as often as he liked. So it’s pointless me insisting to the point where it breaks us up. Which it might. I honestly thought DH would come to the conclusion he couldn’t possibly have our child around his dad and he honestly thought I would be comfortable with them having a constantly supervised relationship. I met FIL many times before finding out about his crime. I never liked him because he’s old fashioned and makes shitty vaguely sexual comments about my appearance and women in general. In the same way many older men do. Shitty behavior. But too vague to cause an argument over. Not enough to be classed as harassment. Just bog standard shitty entitled male behavior. So I’ve got used to biting my tongue and just not laughing or smiling at him when he makes that kind of remark. Now I know he’s also (or was in the past) capable of horrible entitled sexual behavior towards children I need to be different in my interactions with him. Not polite DIL who won’t laugh at sexist jokes but who won’t rock the boat. I need to be the scary mama bear you don’t even dream of messing with. I want rules that FIL won’t like. Like no pictures with our baby ever. And no holding the baby/having toddler on his knees. Ever. Ideally no physical contact ever. I’m certainly not going to let him touch me ever again - so no hug goodbye kind of thing. No meeting in his house where I find it harder to be assertive. He’s not welcome in my house. I need non confrontational ways to hold these boundaries so that my DH will be satisfied that our baby was able to meet their (extremely flawed) paternal grandfather, but without me freaking out and screaming ´you disgusting paedo’ and ruining our marriage and losing even more control over the situation. Any suggestions?

From a practical perspective, when the baby is tiny, I would have him or her in a sling on you and that way you are 100% in charge, you can even nip to the loo with them in the sling (can take a bit of practice and wriggling but definitely doable even even when they're older!).
It sends a very clear and protective message, you are in charge, your baby, he is not getting anywhere near.
Personally though I'm with you and I wouldn't want there to be any relationship at all, I don't see how anything positive could come for your child from it.

DH said if we refuse all contact then our child may be upset they did not meet their grandfather

How does your DH feel about your baby growing up friendless because other parents quite rightly resist sending theirs to a home where excuses are made for a paedophile and where they could easily be present?

The only way round that would be to never speak about what he did with anyone - except that you'd then become complicit with the cover-up

I think that the other area of risk here is that as your child grows they may build a relationship with fil.

It is easy to stop fil picking up a baby. It’s much harder to stop a stroppy 6 year old who thinks you’re being unfair running into his arms. It’s impossible to stop a 13 year out for a day with their mates getting into the car of a grandparent who they trust.

You need to reflect how you will protect your child as they grow and not just as a baby....

It is easy to stop fil picking up a baby. It’s much harder to stop a stroppy 6 year old who thinks you’re being unfair running into his arms. It’s impossible to stop a 13 year out for a day with their mates getting into the car of a grandparent who they trust.

This.

I wouldn’t want FIL to have any contact with my child. Or future children.

What does the child get out of 1/2 hours twice a year… not much. What’s the point? Problem is how much grooming he can do at a distance… cards presents emails, video calls. It’s too risky. This isn’t a potential issue, this is a defined, enormous and life changing risk to your child and once DS is in his thrall you won’t get a moment’s peace.

Your DH has to accept that he isn’t best placed to make safe decisions for his child - in this instance.

According to my googling (I have no knowledge) there is no age of consent as yet in France (they are proposing age 15) , and incest between an uncle and a child has only been considered incest there since 2016

Could you ask your FIL to apply for an extrait-casier-judiciaire-bulletin-n3?www.justice.fr/fiche/demande-extrait-casier-judiciaire-bulletin-n3

I think you need to contact the Police/Social worker to find if and how you can access something like Claire's Law etc in France. You need to find out if he is listed on a sex offender list or the French Equivalent and if listed what restriction apply (eg if he is not allowed contact with kids through work or not allowed live near schools etc you may need to go legal route.)I would consider asking the hospital to speak with their in house social worker and seeing what advice they give.

Do you have anyway of contacting your dh's cousin or his or hers parent? They may be able to give you the information you need.

OP you are playing with fire here. My brother is a paedophile, my family have been shit at facing up to his actions and now I have three absolutely heartbroken children who have lost that entire side of the family because the extent of the abuse came out and members of the family just won’t react. If I had my time back again I would never have put my children through meeting and then later losing their entire extended family. If your FIL does try anything and let’s face it your DH is completely blind to the fact that his father still has totally inappropriate and unacceptable boundaries, then I promise you your child will hold you responsible. I absolutely hold my parents responsible for their inability to react to my brothers abuse of his sisters. Your DH and your first responsibility is to safeguard your child not to your DH, not to his father. I do not believe for 1 second your DH has fully faced up to his father’s abuse capacity.

I think YABU (and that’s an understatement) to even consider being in the same room as this man, never mind allowing your child to be. And your husband is encouraging his child to have a relationship with a convicted paedo-sorry but I struggle to see how your relationship isn’t over already. You are undereacting to a terrifying degree. If you divorced your husband then perhaps the threat of outing his father (and the subsequent lynching) would be enough to persuade him that he shouldn’t collude in the situation by allowing contact. You could threaten to tell everyone that too. I know that may sound dramatic but when it comes to this issue the gloves come off. I would do literally anything it took to ensure that man never laid eyes on me again or my child ever.

And in that vein, is there scope to manipulate your husband into moving back to the UK if that’s where you’re from and then divorcing him once your child is ‘ordinarily resident here’? Again this may sound bad and I would only say that in extreme circumstances but finding out you have accidentally had a child with a paedophile apologist is extreme circumstances in my book.

I'm always amazed at the lengths that children will go to to protect their parents. Every day on Mumsnet there is a AIBU about someone being abused by a MIL/FIL/SIL and their DP/DH putting pressure on them to tolerate the abuse because they are family. These family members couldn't care less about their children especially now that they are adults.

I wouldn't trust your DH to look after your childs best interests as he is, as I see time and time again, putting his parent above everyone else. You are in a difficult position because as you say, he could have more access if you separate. I would investigate much further to try and get more information to try convince your DH to take a different view. Ask your MIL/the family and delve into it further. If that fails, you will have to monitor, by holding your child yourself at all times when in his presence. Is the FIL nearly dead? can you guide your DH towards some counselling?

Why does your DH think that your child should have a relationship with a pedophile? How exactly does that benefit his child. A person who puts their parent above their child is an unsuitable parent in my opinion. If my Grandfather was a pedophile and my parents insisted that I had a relationship with him, I would not have a a good opinion of them and if something happened to me, I would never forgive them.

@wildseas

I think that the other area of risk here is that as your child grows they may build a relationship with fil.

It is easy to stop fil picking up a baby. It’s much harder to stop a stroppy 6 year old who thinks you’re being unfair running into his arms. It’s impossible to stop a 13 year out for a day with their mates getting into the car of a grandparent who they trust.

You need to reflect how you will protect your child as they grow and not just as a baby....

This is what would worry me the most. I'm so sorry you're in this position OP. I feel sorry for your DH too to have such a father, but he needs to wise up. It's all very well to comfort himself with thoughts of his father having 'good bits' of his personality, as long as in doing so he puts no one at risk. His father isn't a risk to HIM, but he is a father now himself and has to set his own comfort aside for the safety of his child.

Or try what @TrufflesAndToast said. I know you said you can't flee but is there a legal way around it? I also think you are underreacting.

Honestly? I would confront them both with other family there. I would state very clearly that I was not going to tolerate ogling and creepy comments from FIL, nor was I going to buy into the family culture of minimising his behaviour and allowing it to continue. I would then state that while they may attempt to minimize your feelings because you’re English, you were not going to sit tolerate the unwelcome attention of a convicted predator - OR risk your child’s safety either. I would make it clear from then that FIL was not to be near me or any of my kids ever again.

@Redjumper1

Or try what *@TrufflesAndToast* said. I know you said you can't flee but is there a legal way around it? I also think you are underreacting.

I wondered this too. If ever there was mitigating circumstances to justify fleeing, I imagine this would be it.

I think if you were in the UK social services would step in and prevent contact. One of my friends was abused as a child and he didn't go to jail, but SS acted very swiftly when he attempted to move in with someone with a child.

@Needanewname87 you need legal advice IN FRANCE

There is no point going on about what I’d love to see happening if you were in the U.K. you will have to follow the rules in France and work around them.

So go and see a lawyer ad ask what is and isn’t possible. But don’t expect it to be the same or as severe. In my experience france has a long way to go there.

Fleeing is a very poor advice.
Because of The Hague convention. But also because it would mean separating a child from their dad.

First, the OP needs to find a way to make it work WITH her DH.

I think I need to look at the legal side again, but to be honest I really don’t hold out much hope for their being anything helpful there. If we did divorce, trust me the gloves would come off and I’d be trying all legal pathways to block contact between my child and their grandfather. But there is no guarantee it would work. SS may consider that supervised contact would be ok. Or they may recommend no contact but be unable to enforce that if legally supervised contact is deemed acceptable.
I had a lovely easy childhood with no significant traumatic events and it’s been a massive shock finding out how these things are handled in the real world. We all assume someone who abuses children will never be allowed within 100m of another child as long as they live. But actually that’s totally unenforceable so that’s not what happens at all. And what FIL did is not that uncommon. It’s scarily common. Jails are not full of sexual abusers condemned to never see the light of day. A scary number are never caught or never prosecuted. Those that are are not imprisoned indefinitely. The legal and psychological logic in France seems to be that it is not necessarily helpful to cut child sex offenders off completely from society and from their extended families because then they would have nothing to lose and people with nothing to lose are unmanageable. I have to work within the system to keep my child safe. Running away with my child would backfire hugely. I could be charged with kidnapping and lose custody. Then I would have no control over the situation whatsoever and an ex DH who no longer valued my opinion. And potentially very little access to my own child.
I very much hope the man has a heart attack and dies sooner rather than later. That’s not a sentiment I can easily express to my husband or his family. I don’t think he deserves to die for what he did, I just hate having to deal with the shitshow his idiotic selfish acts have created, over a quarter of a century later.
I get the outrage. I feel the same fucking outrage. But what I actually need is ideas of how to organize contact to be a safe as possible. My husband is currently open to me placing much stricter rules on contact than he would have imagined needing. But he doesn’t want any public shouting matches.

Set the rules out, sorry but fuck your partner, he's just as bad as his dad IMO, he's an enabler.
Lay down the law, bullet points, short and easy to understand so no questions required. Eg;

1. If you ever make physical contact with my child I will end you.
2. If you make lewid comments in my presence I will cut your out of (child's name) life.
3. You will never be alone with child.

Literally just tell him if he steps out of line you'll ruin his life, its the least he deserves.

And yes of course my child will get nothing of value out of 2 hours every six months. I don’t care about that. At all. I also don’t give a fuck about FILs feelings on any of this. I have made that clear to DH. FILs feelings don’t count and he can’t bring them up as reasons for doing things a certain way because I don’t give a fuck. This is about fufilling a minimum of my husband’s desire to see his flawed father that he loves being a grandfather to his baby who he loves more than anything in the world. So that I can keep the tightest possible control of the situation. And ideally not ruin my marriage in the process. To answer a pps questions - a 6 year old we would discourage from say sitting on FILs lap by telling him granddad is old and has sore knees. If FIL didn’t play along I would be leaving with the child immediately. 13 year old would be told grandfather was not a safe person to have unsupervised text or phone conversations with. I’m not sure how we will tell bb about the situation. I think we will need some guidance from a professional psychologist or social worker for that. It will need to happen before our child starts to have independent electronic communication with others. I’m thinking around 12 but it might have to be earlier. As I said, I’m planning on getting some help with that stage. Maybe FIL will have that heart attack beforehand. Then we could wait a little longer to explain.

My husband is currently open to me placing much stricter rules on contact than he would have imagined needing.

That’s a very good start.
Id do a list if what you’d like to see happening (bar never seeing again) and grade the different things from essential to would be good etc..
I think this list would depend on what he did.
Eg touching the child is different than exposing himself.

So if we are talking about touching the child, then baby should never be in his arms/on his knees. That would be essential but maybe (?) downgraded to ‘would be good’ is it was exposing himself.

Is he the type of person who wants to play with said children? Does it ever happen in the family with other children?
You could more easily say ‘baby will never play on the floor with FIL’ if this is something other family members have already imposed anyway.

In France, going to see a psychologist would be the best way. People will listen and your DH will be more likely to listen to their advice.

I would however, do a ‘trial’ on your own to test the waters and see what they are more likely to advise!

Energy4you that’s a good point about testing the psychologist out first

I'm going to suggest a very different approach, partly because you say FiL lives a long way away and only see him 1-2 times a year, and also because you baby is so young. I am assuming this means FiL never comes to see you and you visit him; if that's not the case then this suggestion probably won't work.

Which is to simply wait. Cross the bridge of this debate when (if) your husband suggests a trip to FiL with your child. And then refuse to go. Flatly refuse and have the argument then.

Because I wonder if your husband will gradually come around to your way of thinking. He may just need some time to process it all. He's a new parent, only just coming to grips with the responsibilities that brings. Your protective instincts have been building for a long time, as you carried the baby, but his may only just now be developing and growing now your baby is in the world. At the point a potential visit to his father comes up, it may well hit him like a truck just how terrible an idea that is and how much he needs to protect his child. He might at that point willingly go no-contact or decide to only see his father without you and your child present. If not, have the knock down argument then.

If there is any chance FiL might come to visit you where you live, especially without warning, then clearly that's a whole different story and you need to have the debate and agreements up front now. No contact at all is clearly the best approach. If however you and husband simply cannot agree then your proposals ago a long way to reducing the risk, other than the fact your child as they get older may question the reasons for such restrictions.

I do partly understand why your husband is behaving this way; children are pre-programmed to love and bond to their parents no matter what and even the most horrifically abused kids still want a relationship. Ask anyone working in child protection. In his case he also grew up with it all being minimised and seeing his father after the divorce, so as an adult it takes an enormous emotional shift to accept the enormity of what his father did and cut contact, even for the sake of his own child. Time might just work more than anything other reasoning might.

And I have made a list like that. I think DH was a little overwhelmed by the number of things. From what I know of extended family’s interactions with him, he self imposes quite a lot of rules so as to avoid putting himself in a position where he could be accused of abuse again.