How to be in charge with FIL. (Trigger warning CSA)

[Needanewname87]

So, I have a shitty situation to deal with. My FIL has a historic conviction for child sex offences. I don’t know exactly what happened. No one will tell me. I do know it was 25+ years ago, he is the victim’s uncle and was convicted and given a suspended jail term (so he didn’t actually go to jail). He’s not been caught doing anything illegal since. His family seem certain he has never repeated that behavior, and are happy to see him with the rule that he is never left unsupervised with any children. I have a newborn baby. I had naively assumed that our baby would have nothing to do with this relative because that was the obvious conclusion for me. Turns out my DH feels differently and wants our baby to have a relationship with their paternal grandfather. He thinks constant supervision is enough. I think it would be better if they never have any contact whatsoever. But the problem is I can’t insist on zero contact because if my DH wanted to divorce me over this he would be able to take our child to see FIL as often as he liked. So it’s pointless me insisting to the point where it breaks us up. Which it might. I honestly thought DH would come to the conclusion he couldn’t possibly have our child around his dad and he honestly thought I would be comfortable with them having a constantly supervised relationship. I met FIL many times before finding out about his crime. I never liked him because he’s old fashioned and makes shitty vaguely sexual comments about my appearance and women in general. In the same way many older men do. Shitty behavior. But too vague to cause an argument over. Not enough to be classed as harassment. Just bog standard shitty entitled male behavior. So I’ve got used to biting my tongue and just not laughing or smiling at him when he makes that kind of remark. Now I know he’s also (or was in the past) capable of horrible entitled sexual behavior towards children I need to be different in my interactions with him. Not polite DIL who won’t laugh at sexist jokes but who won’t rock the boat. I need to be the scary mama bear you don’t even dream of messing with. I want rules that FIL won’t like. Like no pictures with our baby ever. And no holding the baby/having toddler on his knees. Ever. Ideally no physical contact ever. I’m certainly not going to let him touch me ever again - so no hug goodbye kind of thing. No meeting in his house where I find it harder to be assertive. He’s not welcome in my house. I need non confrontational ways to hold these boundaries so that my DH will be satisfied that our baby was able to meet their (extremely flawed) paternal grandfather, but without me freaking out and screaming ´you disgusting paedo’ and ruining our marriage and losing even more control over the situation. Any suggestions?

Would there have been newspaper reports about this at the time? If so, it might be worth looking in the archives of papers in his area. Are court records searchable? Might it be possible to look up the original court transcripts?

There must be French charities who deal with CSA, maybe in particular with historic cases. They will probably have more accurate information, and should also be able to support you during what might turn out to be a very difficult time. In the meantime, I would be seeking help and advice from every official body possible- and I wouldn't be doing it quietly!

I'm so sorry that you are having to worry about this. You are entirely right to do so, but it's a real shame that the one person who should be fighting as fiercely as you is no help at all.

What relationship does the victim have with the family now?

What a difficult situation.

First of all I was abused by a family friend while in the same (small) room with my parents. it happened my sister too. It isn't enough not to leave him alone with your child, he needs to be kept physically well away from him. Could you please explain to your dh that this is actually real - abusers do not need to be alone with their victims.

If you are stuck in this situation, I think you should have a frank conversation with your mil and ask her to tell you the details of what happened. And I agree with pp's advice to see someone with your dh to work out a hard and fast agreement about what contact with fil will look like in reality.

The victim and their nuclear family cut contact with FIL. - he was uncle by marriage rather than blood. The family are aware that people can abuse blood relations too. FIL was abused by his own father. It’s always presented like an explanation as to why he went on to abuse a child himself. I think it’s horrible but irrelevant as that man is long dead and is not a threat to me or my baby.

Pallisers - this is what I’m worried about. I trust DH not to ever leave our baby alone with FIL. I don’t trust him to sit down and think about all the possible ways abuse could happen and all the small things we need to do to protect our baby. Like I think we need to severely limit visits and ideally presents. And we need a way to show baby they can’t trust this man. Little kids trust adults that their parents show them they can trust. I’ve worked with kids, it’s really not difficult to get a child to warm to you in just a few minutes when the parents are happy and smiley and say ´this is Needanewname, she’s going to look after you for the evening while we go to the cinema’ or whatever. Little kids like presents. So they like people who give them presents.

I want FIL to be afraid of me. I want him to know I have zero trust in him and zero trust in the idea that he has never offended ever again. If he was caught tomorrow downloading images of CSA I would not be surprised in the slightest. Because he has form. He abused a child once that I know about so I know he is capable of doing something that selfish and cruel and I don’t share his family’s trust that he learnt he lesson and is therefore unlikely to reoffend.

Do you have an expat forum you use? Or a local French forum?

I've been having a read of some research papers online but it's difficult because I'm searching in English not French. It looks like the council of Europe recommended the construction of a sex offenders register but that most places haven't completed that yet.

I don't think there's an equivalent of Sarah's law, but a French forum is much more likely to help.

I wonder if the length of time ago this happened might also have influenced the sentences. It looks from reading as though sentences and the level of severity with which CSA is treated by the courts (and the "balancing act" between the rights of children and their parents to understand the risks Vs the rights of offenders to privacy) has been moving towards harsher sentences (and more rights for parents and children) over the last couple of decades - it might be that is that happened now he wouldn't have been allowed near his own children.

Op I am a csa survivor not leaving him unsupervised with children frankly isn't good enough

They can and do abuse children in the company of others

It's unfortunate your dh wasn't totally honest and upfront about his feelings on this before baby was conceived

I never allowed dd within arms reach of my abuser - literally - we had very little contact with him and at times I/we were nc especially when she was v little and it was harder to control as it tends to be with eg a toddler.

As she got older I explained what the situation was in age appropriate terms and she naturally avoided him herself

It's a complicated situation indeed I wish I had been strong enough to go and stay nc but my mum was still married to him and doing so meant that it cut her off too and removed that Avenue of support from me which as a single mum I really needed and I missed my mum!

Personally in your situation I would also do it that dh doesn't visit fil with dc without you. Ever.

You're in an incredibly difficult position I feel for you.

Going official and involving dh in that and his having to listen to the advice of expert professionals might get through his thick skull!

@crossstitchcat I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, the problem is in this country the control around such people is shit! If op were to split from dh she would have zero control over fil contact with dc and dh legally would be perfectly within his rights to take dc to fil on his contact days and allow fil to be around and touch dc. Even with a conviction there's no legal remedy to prevent fil from having contact with dc unless he is convicted of a far more serious offence and not having contact with children is made a condition of bail, parole etc - which it VERY rarely is!

When I was going through my divorce and contact issues the lawyer I had described to me a case she was dealing with where the father had been convicted and imprisoned for raping the child and then when released from prison had applied for UNsupervised contact which he got! The argument being that he had served his time and done a rehabilitation course! He was being given legally sanctioned access to his rape victim! The victim was understandably incredibly distressed at the mere idea and the mother was out of her mind worried sick! I don't know if they were able to successfully appeal against that ruling I hope so.

But basically yea it's pretty shit how victims and potential victims are treated and that the creeps are treated far better than they should be!

Op now says not in uk (that info would have been good in 1st post) so I don't know what it's like where you are but in my experience many countries are as bad as Uk on this sometimes worse

PLEASE at least impress upon dh the possibility of abuse being perpetuated even in a supervised situation

I may get flamed for this but if the country you're in is not part of the group of countries with agreement on parents not removing dc (I forget the name of that agreement sorry) then I would be doing a flit!

Just leave, with the child.

Ah I think France is part of that agreement. I think I'd still be tempted to do a disappearing act.

@ErrmWTAF you're operating on Uk laws there op is not currently in Uk

He would probably get a prison sentence for that crime these days.

Not in the Uk he wouldn't! There are loads of convicted paedophiles that don't get custodial sentences

Re child being "upset" at not having relationship with grandfather - bullshit! You don't miss what you've never had. Would be far simpler and better for the child to have no contact with him. Child can still have a relationship with dh mother, plenty of children the grandparents have died before they were born and it's not an issue for the children

@Ozanj even in the Uk that is not the case not remotely pardophiles are often legally allowed contact with children especially children they are related to I think you are very very naive about this

I'm willing to bet his claims he was also abused by his father only came out when he was caught? That's basically a myth thats come about because a lot of perpetrators have CLAIMED they were abused as a misdirect experts now believe they are no more likely to have been abused than is the case among the general public statistically that myth is basically being debunked

You could also - if you think you can pull it off - put fil "on notice" by speaking to him yourself

I was very clear to my abuser that he would NEVER have physical contact or unsupervised access to dd indeed I never even allowed my mother unsupervised access while she was a child, she never babysat dd or took her out for the day etc herself this was because she did not believe my disclosure and I felt I could not trust her to keep dd away from him as per my wishes.

My heart goes out to you op it's such a horrible situation

I think you both need to speak to your (divorced) MIL. She will know the truth of what he did.

Surely she will want to protect her grandchild and can also talk to your DH so it's not you but your MIL telling DH to keep your precious DC away from him.

I think you need to call out you FIL every single time he makes a comment that makes you feel uncomfortable. Then leave with the baby.

You husband needs to know the scale of his father's current poor behaviour and the impact it has on you.

I'm not making excuses but he's had 25 years of this being minimised. You need to challenge that and make sure he knows this is a current issue and not something in the past.

He also needs to be aware how many serious offences were dealt with more leniently in the past. Now (hopefully) he would be dealt with more severely.

Where is the victim in all of this?

Disappearing act is not an option. I would be charged with kidnapping under the Hague convention. I would love to have contact organized via a contact centre with an independent supervisor present and super strict rules about physical contact between children and convicted sex offenders enforced by this third party. But I don’t think they exist here.

I have been having a think about this and have a (partial) suggestion. I think as well as doing what has been advised re law, support and so on, you should be laying down the rules to your husband because its him who wants the contact....so maybe the answer is to say that you can understand his POV but that means that the responsibility is on HIM to keep your child safe....just like if a parent take a child into any kind of risky situation. This being the case, you need to agree the basic rules and yours are as follows........ I think that you can both agree that the number one important thing here beyond anything else is the safety of your shared child...and go on from there?

There will be complex feelings that your DH has about his father and that's got to be fine. You're coming in with these very black and white rules and moral judgements as an outsider so maybe be mindful of how that will make your DH feel and the stress it'll put him under. No advise, it's your situation but I just wanted to point to that as I can empathize with your DH.

This isn’t going to be a weekly battle by the way, he lives a very long drive from us. So it’s more like a twice a year kind of frequency that my DH was picturing. I need solutions to keep contact short and safe and minimize the amount of headspace this bastard takes up. I was thinking outdoors and with an activity with a beginning and end would be easier. Also, when baby grows a bit they will be running around and FIL won’t be able to keep up. Also keeps the interaction between them fairly minimal. Something like a French equivalent to a walk around a national trust property. So there’s a clear end. 1-2 hours mama bear watching over her cub then fuck off and pretend he doesn’t exist for another 6 months. Am I missing any obvious safety concerns with that kind of activity ?

I totally get that you want your FIL to be scared of you. I feel so sorry for you being in this situation.

Have you thought of maybe getting your MIL, husband and you round a table and getting her to explain to him exactly what happened? If your husband was a child at the time he may have never been told much about it - probably wasn't in fact - and been able to minimise it as a result. He needs to confront the reality so he can be on side to protect your kid. I wonder how your MIL dealt with it after the divorce.

Alternatively if you think there may have been press reports is there a local reference library that might have old newspapers etc? Do you know any lawyers/officials type people that would be able to advise what other documentation might be available about the case?

If I were you I think my line would be either no contact at all, or viewing from one metre away at least and no photos. NO contact, no crowds, no trips out etc. FFS this man is dangerous. I feel so sorry for his nephew/niece.

I think the only risk is that your child will grow up thinking of a child abuser as someone his/her parents still thought was ok to spend time with, and to have him/her spend time with. I'd rather my kid grew up thinking that we stay away from dangerous criminals who hurt others.

(and I know, rehabilitation etc - most crimes I agree with that, but not this one)

I’m posting here instead of discussing this with my husband (again) because it is putting him under enormous strain. He is taking my feelings into account about for example, not wanting his father to hold our baby. It’s difficult because he loves his father despite his crime. He is worried about his father’s safety if people find out what he did. Paedophile’s get lynched. It’s not a baseless concern. I don’t have many opportunities to talk about my feelings on this problem because I have to bear that in mind. I have quite black and white feelings on the subject but it’s very easy for me to dismiss FIL completely as a person because I don’t really like him anyway and so any possible positive contribution he could bring to our baby’s life is worthless in my eyes. It’s not to DH and I do understand that. I just need to vent as well because it feels like my legitimate concerns and my legitimate personal dislike of him don’t count for much because I can’t have the zero contact arrangement that I really want.

He is taking my feelings into account about for example, not wanting his father to hold our baby. It’s difficult because he loves his father despite his crime.

From everything you've said though, if you weren't present and his dad said to him oh come on please can I hold the baby, I'm their granddad and I might not get another chance etc, it sounds like your DH could be guilted / persuaded to hand the baby over for a hold. And I'm not sure you could forgive that. I certainly couldn't.

I would absolutely be going no contact and wouldn't be able to stay with a partner who didn't agree with doing so if their parent was a convicted child abuser.

I really feel for you as I know that's easier said than done and as you say, if you split then you will always panic about your husband allowing access.

He doesn't sound resilient or on board enough to absolutely protect your child from being held for example. That would deeply concern me as it is a hard line for you, a dealbreaker, and it sounds like it isn't an absolute one for him when it comes down to it.

If your husband is willing to put his father above you or your child he’s not worth having! Did you not discuss this before falling pregnant?

How would you dh feel if god forbid he did something to child? My father abused me i swore he wouldnt breath the same air as my kids and so far hes never had chance too

Did you find out before or after you were pregnant?

What would happen if you just put your foot down and said "FIL is not seeing my child and that's the end of it", do you think?

What does your DP think people would think of him if they found out he willingly exposed his child to a convicted paedophile? What does he think it is teaching your child to minimise this sort of behaviour?

Would he be this laissez-faire if it had been another child of your DP's that his father had abused, or if it had been your DP himself who was abused? Does your DP still see his cousin or has he just shunted him aside in his mind as not-really-a-full-person?

Sorry, I appreciate what you're saying about your DP's perspective but he's an adult with responsibilities now and he's being very weak.

I think you should agree with your dh in advance what your boundaries are and what will happen each time one of them is crossed. I agree about meeting for an hour or two at the park or some similar.
So your boundaries might be: no touching at all, and no seedy comments, no comments at all about your appearance or your daughter's appearance. And then the follow through might look like this:
If he touches her you snatch her away and say "don't touch her, you are not allowed to touch her" if he argues or touches her again in any way you leave. If you decide to visit again you call him before the visit and say "last time we visited you touched DC. You are not allowed to touch her. If you touch her again we will not visit again."

If he comments on your appearance say "don't speak to me that way. You are not allowed to speak to me that way. Do not comment on my appearance" same for your daughter, "you are not allowed to comment on her appearance" if he does it again leave.

I would take a chat pack or have some conversation ideas ready to go and completely direct the conversation. It sounds like you don't care if these visits are unpleasant and you want him to be scared of you (good!) So I think it's ok to take the nuclear option and come down as hard as you want on any infraction, like above. It doesn't matter if he thinks you're a bitch

If you're unpleasant enough he may not want to see you anyway, bonus! I agree with others that you must always be present because of your dh clouded feelings. Don't even go to the bathroom!

Sorry to blow up your thread, I just also wanted to say that I think you can set whatever rules you want, no pics, no touching, no comments, no gifts, anything. If you're going to allow your baby to see your pedophile FIL it should be totally on your terms or not at all. Like others I wonder what your dh would say if you said no visits full stoo?