How to be in charge with FIL. (Trigger warning CSA)

[Needanewname87]

So, I have a shitty situation to deal with. My FIL has a historic conviction for child sex offences. I don’t know exactly what happened. No one will tell me. I do know it was 25+ years ago, he is the victim’s uncle and was convicted and given a suspended jail term (so he didn’t actually go to jail). He’s not been caught doing anything illegal since. His family seem certain he has never repeated that behavior, and are happy to see him with the rule that he is never left unsupervised with any children. I have a newborn baby. I had naively assumed that our baby would have nothing to do with this relative because that was the obvious conclusion for me. Turns out my DH feels differently and wants our baby to have a relationship with their paternal grandfather. He thinks constant supervision is enough. I think it would be better if they never have any contact whatsoever. But the problem is I can’t insist on zero contact because if my DH wanted to divorce me over this he would be able to take our child to see FIL as often as he liked. So it’s pointless me insisting to the point where it breaks us up. Which it might. I honestly thought DH would come to the conclusion he couldn’t possibly have our child around his dad and he honestly thought I would be comfortable with them having a constantly supervised relationship. I met FIL many times before finding out about his crime. I never liked him because he’s old fashioned and makes shitty vaguely sexual comments about my appearance and women in general. In the same way many older men do. Shitty behavior. But too vague to cause an argument over. Not enough to be classed as harassment. Just bog standard shitty entitled male behavior. So I’ve got used to biting my tongue and just not laughing or smiling at him when he makes that kind of remark. Now I know he’s also (or was in the past) capable of horrible entitled sexual behavior towards children I need to be different in my interactions with him. Not polite DIL who won’t laugh at sexist jokes but who won’t rock the boat. I need to be the scary mama bear you don’t even dream of messing with. I want rules that FIL won’t like. Like no pictures with our baby ever. And no holding the baby/having toddler on his knees. Ever. Ideally no physical contact ever. I’m certainly not going to let him touch me ever again - so no hug goodbye kind of thing. No meeting in his house where I find it harder to be assertive. He’s not welcome in my house. I need non confrontational ways to hold these boundaries so that my DH will be satisfied that our baby was able to meet their (extremely flawed) paternal grandfather, but without me freaking out and screaming ´you disgusting paedo’ and ruining our marriage and losing even more control over the situation. Any suggestions?

I think I need to design the contact so that a lot of the rules don’t have to be said. Like I want no alcohol to be consumed - the easiest way to do that is to organize an activity that doesn’t involve eating or drinking.

I would explicitly tell all stakeholders such as nursery, school, friends etc all about it & to ban this paedophile from doing any unscheduled ‘pick-ups.’ It only takes one tiny slip up from FIL to potentially completely ruin your child’s life. Why would you take that risk.

I think your DH needs some intensive counselling around this as he doesn’t seem to have understood the seriousness of the situation and I cannot believe he didn’t tell you this awful secret before you were married.

If your DH can’t protect an adult (you) from his father - how in the world can he protect a defenceless child?

I want FIL to be afraid of me. I want him to know I have zero trust in him and zero trust in the idea that he has never offended ever again.

I would engineer a moment when you were very briefly able to speak to him alone, and say that if he ever breaks the boundaries you set with your child, you will make him very, very sorry and he should take that threat very seriously. Then exit and don't ever be alone with him again.

he [husband] doesn't want any public shouting matches

Use that as your leverage. That's what the family want desperately to avoid? Make it clear that if they ever undermine you, you will be making this public in a big way.

Then I’d try and see if you can get the list of things he self impose anyway.

That would be a good starting point and a way to give things a positive spin.
‘Your dad doesn’t want to do A and B to avoid being accused of abuse. I think it’s great. Let’s insist this will happen all the time too!’

The thing is you I don’t think you ca have a hugely long list for very practical reasons. You are both going to forget some of them. And they will be very hard to out in practice. I suspect you will get better results with a smaller list but absolutely non negotiable iyswim

I understand this is a very hard situation to navigate but I struggle to understand how you’re so sympathetic to your husband OP and refer to him as loving his child more than anything else in the world, when it’s quite plain that he doesn’t. He is unwilling to ensure his child is never on the receiving end of so much as a look from his paedophile father. He is putting his perverted father’s wishes and feelings above protecting your baby. And that’s without even starting on the fact that he supports your continuous exposure to the old perv. Saying ‘papa’ in a disapproving tone doesn’t exactly scream protecting his wife does it? I just simply do not see how you move forward from your husband’s failure to protect his family in any sense. I couldn’t. At best he is spineless, at worst a paedophile sympathiser.

I wasn’t suggesting fleeing as in a moonlight flit. I was saying that if it were me one option I would consider is engineering a move back to the UK away from the paedophile grandad and colluding family members (your ‘D’H aside) and then once within the better protection of UK law and social services, separate from your husband then once he can no longer take your child to France to see the abuser.

I’d want to do that too @truffles

OP- the condition i would put on dh is that you both get details of the actual case and read them. MIL might be able to help you. If dh wants his dad to have a relationship with his child, it needs to be a fully informed decision, and if you both don't know exactly what happened, there is no way for you to assess the risk correctly.

Hopefully being forced to read it might make dh realise its actually a big deal.

Are you not able to just say no I don’t want my child around a pedo? That’s a reasonable opinion.

Your husband can see his father without you and your child. I don’t understand why this isn’t an option. In fact it should be the only option. I don’t see how you can possibly justify your child being around a convicted pedophile.

Even with all the safeguards.. just why is this even up for discussion? I don’t see why your fil deserves to see his grandchild. Who cares about him having a relationship with his grandchild. Child abusers shouldn’t be around chidlren period. That’s all..

I hope you find a solution that involves zero risk for your child. The fact of the matter is that your child is in fact at risk around a pedophile. There should never be a moment where this man has access to your child. This is a huge red flag that your husband and his family think it’s so important he see your child. I’m not convinced they will obey of
Your safeguarding rules.

FIL does not live anywhere near us. It’s hours and hours drive. He’s not going to be able to pick up our baby from nursery. Nurseries here don’t release babies to anyone but the parents unless the parents have specifically given permission for someone else to do pickup and then they have to either bring photo ID or be introduced by the parent first. Don’t be ridiculous. FIL would never try that. He knows we all know he has a conviction for child abuse. He wouldn’t actively engineer a clumsy and obvious way to be alone with a child in the family while the parents were not around. It would destroy every last shred of trust anyone in his family might have in him. It’s just not a realistic risk. Him finding a way to abuse a child in his home while that child’s parents were distracted (even if they are all in the same room) is a realistic risk. This is what I need help avoiding

Marshmallow swede you have described pretty perfectly my starting point and general opinion on the matter. Unfortunately I am not the only one who’s opinion counts here in a legal sense. So this is the situation I have ended up in. I do not have absolute control over my child’s upbringing. If my DH did not have a say too then there wouldn’t be a thread. FIL would not even have been told my baby exists.

I think it needs to start with you. If he makes a comment about you/other women you respond assertively- “your legs look nice in that dress” “comments like that make me uncomfortable, why do you think it is appropriate to say that to your child’s wife?”

It shows you aren’t afraid to confront the “smallest” of things and that you will publicly humiliate him wherever necessary, hopefully you can do it enough that he wants nothing to do with you or your baby! If DH questions you it’s easy to defend because you have every right to not be made to feel uncomfortable.

Can anyone see any potential risky situations in contact like walking in a large park or on a beach in winter when swimming is out of the question (I don’t think FIL swims anyway). I’m trying to think of safe (safer) options. I like the idea of the big open space and encouraging moving rather than sitting. It would also limit the timeframe to a couple of hours max. Also neutral ground and in full view of the general public.

@TrufflesAndToast the problem is your plan would get the op in trouble with the law themselves to the point of potentially losing custody which would make matters so much worse.

I'm getting a sense France is at least as bad as the Uk in poorly dealing with paedophiles that are convicted and remain or return to the community (yea I know don't get me started either! I'd lock em up and throw away the key! Especially when there's been in person physical abuse as there has clearly been here)

Op needs to remain close to dh at least while the child is young I'd say up to at least high school age as otherwise it'll be a bloody "free for all" there will be no protections in place when the dh takes the child to see his father there may even be overnights etc which will put that child at far more risk. M

Dh is putting the op in an almost impossible position here

In my case I had disclosed to my ex before we ttc and we had already agreed between us that any dc would never have physical contact or overnights either at my parents or supervised by my mother. Thankfully we were for the most part on the same page.

It's an incredibly hard situation to navigate.

When I was nc with my parents for a time my father even consulted lawyers to try and enforce unsupervised contact.

At that point I phoned him extremely angry and made a PROMISE that he KNEW I'd keep that if he even ATTEMPTED to go down that route I would do all I could to pursue a prosecution, if I couldn't get a criminal one I'd sue him in a civil court, I'd tell everyone he knew inc his local paper (no sm then) EXACTLY what kind of man he was, all the abuse he had subjected us all to (I was the only victim of csa according to my siblings, but he was also violent and mentally abusive and financially abusive of my mother)

I would have absolutely done this if he'd cornered me like that

Thankfully this was enough to get the arse to wind his neck in!

I also consulted a lawyer myself who said that grandparents don't really have rights in Uk law unless the grandchildren are very close to them and see them a lot etc and that very much wasn't the case with us.

In this case op will know if this will work or just make things harder for her, but could saying to dh that if he pushes for contact with his dad you'll tell people why you're against it? That could be a nuclear option but one to bear in mind

I think if you were in the UK social services would step in and prevent contact.

Sadly not how it works in many cases

Is the joint counselling continuing op? I think it needs to. Who is the counsellor is it someone with actual expertise in csa?

That's who I would be seeking out for counselling someone who KNOWS about this stuff and won't minimise or defend the grandfather

Again don't know about France but a problem in the Uk is ANYONE can call themselves a counsellor there's no professional protections/registration

If there are public shouting matches that will be I would imagine because fil isn't sticking to the rules you have set.

I think you and dh need to agree on what those are the ones we had were basically -

Not allowing him within arms reach of dd EVER

No unsupervised contact with either of my parents EVER

No photos to be taken by them or given to them

No inappropriate comments on her or her appearance EVER (this was how he started with me it's a beginning of breaking down the boundaries/grooming)

While dd was young enough she was running about with it being hard to keep track of her at, say, a large family party if he was going to be there we didn't go. At this point his family knew (don't get me started on their response either!). If we arrived at such an occasion not knowing he was going to be there if he was there we left, if he arrived either he had to leave or we did. I made zero bones about this despite it causing a number of fallings out with relatives, inc shouting matches! Dds safety was ALWAYS the priority

Only mum was allowed to give her cards and presents

As she got older only mum was allowed to phone and talk to her with the phone on speakerphone so I could hear.

No connection with my parents on sm

We didn't share pics of dd on sm either, she did herself as she got older but she had her settings super tight and by this point he was legally blind which helped.

Decide what your rules are and stick to them

I would say to dh if he doesn't want public shouting matches and people finding out then he needs to back you up to the hilt and be damn sure his father knows, understands and will stick to the rules you set.

Any breach during a visit take your child and walk away - every time - have the practical plans in place for you to do so (a vehicle available or public transport or within walking distance of where your hotel is - I certainly would say DO NOT stay in the fil home EVER, you cannot monitor such situations while asleep)

Quite honestly op even as a matter of course you should by the time the child is 6 have them they're aware of eg the underwear rule and that not all adults are benign!

Honestly a lot of abuse could be prevented if children were also prepared/informed. NOT in a victim blaming way but as in knowledge is power

My dd knew this at 6 and I was (understandably I think) very protective of her generally.

There were VERY few households where she'd be allowed to stay overnight with a male present, it would only be the males I knew VERY well and knew I could trust.

This limited her in some ways but I have no regrets.

As she got older she was told the truth of what he had done, enough to know why I was so wary around him. Now she is an adult and knows the basics, no need to go into gory details but the gist of it.

She chose herself as a teen to have little to no contact with him by phone and never went to visit him.

She feels I handled it as well as I could given the family dynamics.

My mum sometimes complains that she isn't as close to dd as she is to my sisters kids but she could have been if she had believed me and left him. She could then have babysat, taken dd for days out etc.

My sister took a weird stance. She claimed not to believe me either but then also didn't allow her kids to stay overnight at my parents and only mum babysitting at hers and other rules. We had one very heated discussion once as I felt she wasn't being as protective as she could be and I even spoke with nspcc about it but there was nothing legally I could do.

We had VERY little contact with my father and dd never really built a relationship with him. I had the very minimum necessary in order to maintain a relationship with my mother which try as I did on occasion I couldn't cut off.

@TrufflesAndToast you are WAY out of order saying the dh doesn't love his child! That's a disgusting and incorrect comment to make! If you don't properly understand the issues here you're better not commenting

I agree that the IDEAL is that such people weren't ALLOWED to be around children ever.

Unfortunately legally this is not currently achievable for people in ops position.

So the next best thing is what op is trying to achieve - keeping contact to a very minimum and safely done for the child.

Bored him to death. - maybe I could start talking about the me too movement if he says something like that. I think I’m going to refuse to do ´la bise’ too. I don’t care what excuse he pretends I have for it. Cold English Bitch or covid. It doesn’t matter, it will send a message that bodily autonomy trumps politeness and I don’t have to bow to his cultural expectations just because we are in France.

Open spaces could work IF you have agreement in place and know it will be stuck to that fil does not get physically close EVER to the child.

I've said it before as have others and I will say again - your presence alone will not guarantee no abuse occurs.

The ONLY way to ensure that is physical distance.

Jimmy savile abused some of his victims while live on tv!

Plenty of us have been abused when there were loads of other supposedly protective/non abusive adults around.

Yes I would be banning la bise too, there's no real need for it and I wouldn't feel remotely comfortable doing that.

You don't need an excuse beyond "you're a creepy convicted perv that I DO NOT TRUST" surely ?

I really don’t think you’ve thought this through.

If I found out that my DDs little friend was being taken to see a pedophile I would seriously question the parents judgement. I would not want to be around those parents and I would absolutely discourage that freindship.

It is entirely inappropriate under any circumstances for your dd to have any contact with this man. Your husbands boundaries are non existent and frankly yours don’t sound much better.

I would not be visiting some dirty old man who made inappropriate comments to me regardless of what my husband might think/ do/ say. Yet you’ve carried on and instead of addressing it you’ve bit your tongue.

Despite the fact you’ve not been able to address this blatant dirty behaviour towards yourself you now think you’re going to have rules about photos and touching your baby. Who is going to enforce these rules? I don’t see how this is going to happen considering you both sit there like a pair of push overs while he says sexually degrading things to you.

You are not thinking about safeguarding your dd. You’re thinking about how to avoid kicking up a stink with your dh.

@Graphista I didn’t say her DH doesn’t love his child. I said he evidently doesn’t love his child more than anything, which is what the OP said. And I stand by that.

I’m really sorry for what you have been through. But the thought of standing in the same room as someone who has done what these men has done makes me sick to my stomach. And I genuinely don’t think I physically could stand there with my child in my arms unless that man was handcuffed and blindfolded. The idea that anyone continues to maintain ANY form of relationship with people that they know for a fact are child abusers, and their apologist relatives, honestly it sickens me.

And to the poster suggesting my suggestion of relocating wasn’t legal - to be clear, I am not suggesting a flit with the child and not the husband. I’m suggesting engineering a perfectly legal family relocation and then doing the necessary once safely away. Nothing that could get the OP in hot water legally.

But given that the Op is asking got advice on how to safely meet up with the paedophile I suspect there is a long way to go yet. OP there is literally no way to protect your child from this man while having ANY contact with him. I’m struggling to understand how you don’t see that. Are you ok with him even looking at your child, knowing what he’ll be thinking?

I think I have to leave this thread because it’s honestly making me feel ill.

Graphista, Thank you for your advice. This is what I need. Actual help thinking through what situations are too difficult to adequately police. Family parties are definitely out, you are right that adequate supervision isn’t possible with lots of people milling around and adults chatting in different groups.
I think we will need some clearer rules about digital communications. At the moment our child is only a baby so all calls are naturally fully supervised but that’s going to have to continue indefinitely.
Overnight visits are a clear no too obviously. I’ve gone further than that now (no visits at our respective homes) but as soon as I understood DH wasn’t willing to go zero contact it’s the first thing I said to him. I can’t supervise and sleep at the same time so it’s always been ab absolutely no not ever rule.
And yes, pants rule and educating our child about safe and unsafe adults and bad secrets and bodily autonomy is a must. Unfortunately FIL will probably not be the only potentially abusive person our child encounters and they need to know those things even if they never have any contact with FIL.

Yes Truffles and Toast I think it would be best if you did leave the thread. I hope you never find yourself in this position where you have too have to abandon the reassuring certainty that risk of sexual abuse can be completely eliminated. I don’t want to be in the same room as my disgusting FIL either, but I may well have to choose between being in the same room as him or having my children in the same room as him and not being there.

I had a similar thing with my husband (although not as bad as what you’re facing). My mother in law beat the crap out of husband and his brother when they were little (far, far beyond ‘normal’ punishment in the 80s). When we had our first and she came to visit and asked to take baby out on her own I said no and told husband she could see the kids but would never be left alone with them. It caused a huge row because husband said that was ‘years ago’ ...despite his brother having not contact with her or letting his own children see her! Eventually husband came round and I was right he was just devastated because it had made him face the reality of his mother not being a normal grandma

....this may be a case of your husband being in total denial and desperately wishing his dad was someone else. You need to stand your ground though and hopefully try get more details so that your husband will see the reality

I agree with pp, if you must have contact twice a year,
Make it outdoors in a public place
No physical contact with you or your child
No photos
When you go to the toilet your child goes with you, every time.
Your child is never out of your sight
Your child is never within 2 metres of FIL (stay Covid socially distanced forever)
Teach your child about safety and that FIL is not a safe man but they there are ways to keep ourselves safe.
No contact at any other times

I agree that if I knew my parents had wanted me to have a relationship with a paedophile and took me to visit him regularly, I would be furious when I was old enough to understand what they had done. And also devastated!

If your DH doesn't actually want then to have a relationship, then what is the point? Your DH can visit FIL by himself.

He has never said anything overtly sexually degrading to me. That would be too easy to object to. ‘That’s a nice dress’ is not the same thing as ´show me your tits’. HR at a large well run company might manage to explain to some sexist pigs that yes, commenting on colleagues clothing choices is a bad idea, but storming out at a family event because someone has said it to you would be pretty universally seen as over reacting. I generally would go with the paddington hard stare and change of subject route. To be honest, I don’t think he’ll dare continue with these comments now I know about his past. It’s just that he ruined any hope he ever had of me seeing him as adding any value whatsoever to my child’s life by treating me in a way I found to be disrespectful.

The CSA that occurred in our family went on for years. The level of manipulation, deviousness and blackmailing that the victims (AND their unsuspecting parent) were subjected to is beyond what the majority of people can EVER comprehend.

Your husband has been manipulated into wanting a relationship with his father. But he needs to understand that any contact will involve risk as Abusers don't change.

I understand your fears if you were to separate from your husband, but I would leave rather than condone contact with this person. And my child, and anyone who questioned my decision, would be told exactly why.

I would also insist on the “No Secrets” rule. (Taught to me by a policewoman in child protection here in Aus.) If a child is taught to parrot back “We don’t keep secrets in our family!” They are unlikely to be invited to join in activities “that will be our little secret.” They must be taught to be suspicious of any adult asking them to keep a secret, so their first response is to tell you about it.