How to be in charge with FIL. (Trigger warning CSA)

[Needanewname87]

So, I have a shitty situation to deal with. My FIL has a historic conviction for child sex offences. I don’t know exactly what happened. No one will tell me. I do know it was 25+ years ago, he is the victim’s uncle and was convicted and given a suspended jail term (so he didn’t actually go to jail). He’s not been caught doing anything illegal since. His family seem certain he has never repeated that behavior, and are happy to see him with the rule that he is never left unsupervised with any children. I have a newborn baby. I had naively assumed that our baby would have nothing to do with this relative because that was the obvious conclusion for me. Turns out my DH feels differently and wants our baby to have a relationship with their paternal grandfather. He thinks constant supervision is enough. I think it would be better if they never have any contact whatsoever. But the problem is I can’t insist on zero contact because if my DH wanted to divorce me over this he would be able to take our child to see FIL as often as he liked. So it’s pointless me insisting to the point where it breaks us up. Which it might. I honestly thought DH would come to the conclusion he couldn’t possibly have our child around his dad and he honestly thought I would be comfortable with them having a constantly supervised relationship. I met FIL many times before finding out about his crime. I never liked him because he’s old fashioned and makes shitty vaguely sexual comments about my appearance and women in general. In the same way many older men do. Shitty behavior. But too vague to cause an argument over. Not enough to be classed as harassment. Just bog standard shitty entitled male behavior. So I’ve got used to biting my tongue and just not laughing or smiling at him when he makes that kind of remark. Now I know he’s also (or was in the past) capable of horrible entitled sexual behavior towards children I need to be different in my interactions with him. Not polite DIL who won’t laugh at sexist jokes but who won’t rock the boat. I need to be the scary mama bear you don’t even dream of messing with. I want rules that FIL won’t like. Like no pictures with our baby ever. And no holding the baby/having toddler on his knees. Ever. Ideally no physical contact ever. I’m certainly not going to let him touch me ever again - so no hug goodbye kind of thing. No meeting in his house where I find it harder to be assertive. He’s not welcome in my house. I need non confrontational ways to hold these boundaries so that my DH will be satisfied that our baby was able to meet their (extremely flawed) paternal grandfather, but without me freaking out and screaming ´you disgusting paedo’ and ruining our marriage and losing even more control over the situation. Any suggestions?

DH doesn’t see his father as a monster. He sees him as a flawed human being who has done mostly good things for him but did a horrible thing to his cousin but also lots of good and neutral and slightly bad and kind and unkind things in his life. I would like to be able to dismiss him as a monster but it’s actually not helpful. I wouldn’t support the death penalty for his crimes for example, partly because it would make things worse - no one would report family members for abuse if the sentence was death.

I think you need to get all the information you can, both as to what happened and what the law in France says you can do. I know nothing about abuse law and attitudes in France but I do know someone who was abused by her uncle in Italy and the public and family attitude to it was a mixture of cover up and well it could have been worse....mind you this was around 10 years ago. have you got any family in France or anyone you can trust to support you?

Greatly written post that you have put on here ! despite the worrying subject matter.. I would feel exactly as you do, concerning this FIL, you simply have to go with how you truly feel about this mans horrible behaviour, no matter what others may think or say.. There are usually hidden things in families, concerning a family member who has done a serious wrong.

I think that men who have issues regarding this topic of sexual matters, will never get rid of how they think, and behave. no matter what their immediate family thinks of them.

It would be grim to have to be around a person like this, especially if he directs unsavoury comments towards you too.

I think his generation don’t know details of what happened. His mother might. Maybe I should ask her. There is an idea that it’s private - not necessarily something that should be private for FIl’s sake but for the sake of the victim’s privacy. I think they also don’t think it makes that much difference what the specifics are. To be fair, I think I want to know what the crimminal charge was, rather than the exact acts involved. I want to know if it was a one off or multiple episodes. I want to know how long the abuse went on for. I want to know where it happened (family party? On holiday? Babysitting?) I want to know how he did it so that I am slightly more reassured that our safeguarding rules cover all the possible risks. And because abuse over a long period of time is clearly not a one off lapse of judgement.

i think your DH is hoping for a 'normal relationship' but with an ab-normal man. This is not just a man whos a criminal, he is a sexual predator to children.
I can pormise you if i found out my parents were letting me visit a convicted Paedophile knowing his crimes, i would feel so upset and let down that my parents did not protect me when i was at my most vunerable.

I agree with you start as you mean to to go on
NO contact
Not even I. The same room don’t go to any occasion where he may be
That is your line
To do anything else is to condone it
Also need to support your Dh into the more safe way to go forward for your child he really isn’t thinking straight and it’s not his fault it’s been his family dynamic for all his life so he needs to come around to it
I also had something in my divorce papers re no contact with a family member too

You can get a police disclosure of his criminal record (cite protection of your child, and that his previous sex assault was on a related child).

TELL DH you are doing this and ask him to be there when you receive the police response..

1. it leaves DH is absolutely no doubt your concern is real and deadly serious
2. it leaves DH no hiding place. He must face the truth about his father's history and the risk to your child.

THEN you lay down Your Iron Rules for all future contact with FIL. DH won't have a leg to stand on.

His comments towards me are things I hate and enough for DH to say ´papa!ˋ in a stern voice. Things like ´that’s a nice dress’ + look that borders on oggling. Shitty and gross but just on the everyday sexism level that I think all women have unfortunately grown used to dealing with on a regular basis.

Your MIL left him over this. One assumes it was serious. If you have a decent relationship with her, I would ask her if you can meet to discuss it. I appreciate and respect the desire to keep the victim's privacy, but a private conversation between the two of you might help you to be clearer in your own head/ with social services/ with your DH.

Was the cousin on your MIL or FIL's side? I wonder if there's some subtle, possibly unconscious feeling that FIL is only dangerous to children he doesn't share blood with?

@Needanewname87

His comments towards me are things I hate and enough for DH to say ´papa!ˋ in a stern voice. Things like ´that’s a nice dress’ + look that borders on oggling. Shitty and gross but just on the everyday sexism level that I think all women have unfortunately grown used to dealing with on a regular basis.

Well no, I wouldn't consider that normal. My FIL might well say, "you look nice" or similar. But if he even vaguely "ogled" or made it even slightly sexual I would be inclined to never see or speak to him again and DH would be BEYOND mortified and 100% would understand.

I really want ideas of how to flip that power dynamic.

@Triffid1 You say that. But has it ever actually happened? I’m pretty sure my DH is mortified by his dad’s seedy sense of humor. But never seeing someone again is a huge thing. People put up with huge amounts of low level disrespect from family because the consequences of causing a huge scene over it aren’t worth it

I don’t think FIL would even realize that he’s being gross. He doesn’t have the same unwritten rules about who should be allowed to express attraction that I do. I think huge age gap relationships are gross. After the divorce he dated women the same age as his adult daughter. Gross. Really gross. But not illegal and not paedophillia. I think his lack of strict boundaries about who is an acceptable potential sexual partner is very worrying. But it’s not illegal and if he were still in a relationship with a woman 30years his junior I would not be able to shun him for that.

I think your going to need French legal help. I have a feeling there legal system dosent have the best record on this sort of things tho. In Uk it would be easier as social services would likely instruct you and DH to keep kid away from FIL - id check the legal position there…

I would be privately thinking he was gross and pubically shrugging and saying ´two consenting adults = my opinion is irrelevant’

[quote Needanewname87]@Triffid1 You say that. But has it ever actually happened? I’m pretty sure my DH is mortified by his dad’s seedy sense of humor. But never seeing someone again is a huge thing. People put up with huge amounts of low level disrespect from family because the consequences of causing a huge scene over it aren’t worth it[/quote]
No, I hear you. I just know that I still wouldn't consider it normal and that I can honestly say I've never had a partner's male relatives be even the slightest bit sexual towards me. I have however, had endless sexist, misogynist comments.

The point I'm making is that sexual innuendo aimed at your DIL is a step BEYOND everyday, garden variety misogyny.

Your big issue is that your FIL was deeemed safe enough to be able to still see his dcs.
If he was safe all this eyears ago to see his own children, why would the law/judge think it's any different with his grand children?

I actually think you need more counselling. Not with the aim of checking that baby will be safe (which was the aim of your fiorst counselling sessions). but with the aim of organising visits in a way that works for both your DH and you.
Once you've agreed what is or isn't OK (eg not going on his knees etc...), then you can go all Mama Bear when he is aorund iyswim.

Btw as you are on France, I think that going to see a counsellor is evn more important. IF (and I really if) things were going so bad that you were to get divorced, you will need real evidence that you have tried your best to protect your child, agreed on AA and BB but let's say, DH didn't actually follow through.

@Needanewname87, I am french. Big age difference are never seen as a big issue in France.
You won't be able to fight that one!

Can you make it so he only sees your DC with you present at all times?

Actually if you split up and told social services your ex wanted baby to have contact with a convicted pedophile then he would probably get supervised access at best. So if that’s the only thing stopping you from a divorce then don’t worry. As others have said lodge a request under Sarah’s law. Nothing and nobody is more important than your baby.

Do sentences in the UK actually include rules about never having contact with children ever again? For lower level stuff - I don’t know what he did exactly but it wasn’t enough to be sent to jail for. This was a long time ago but even today people just don’t get 10years without parole for sexual assault which doesn’t cause physical injury. Sorry I’m trying not to be too graphic. I know sometimes sentences include things like the perpetrator must not be alone with children under 16 but don’t these kinds of sentences have a time limit on them - like 10 years or so. My point is even if he did have a sentence like that (I have no idea if they included something along those lines or not) then it would probably be expired by now and it would be no help anyway

@Triffid1 yes. I agree with you there. It’s the reason I never warmed to him even before knowing he abused a child. DILs are off limits. Isn’t there supposed to be a bro-code even for gross entitled men?

Sounds simplistic but have you tried googling him?
Even that long ago there could still be newspaper articles or old records that could give you a bit mroe insight into what your dealing with

Onzanj are you sure? I’m not so sure. I would need to check out the legal situation here in detail before willingly putting that to the test.