Do affairs work?

[JodyD1973]

Hi I’m having an affair with a married man. I’m 48 separated 3 years ago and we’ve been seeing each other for 10 months. I have fallen in love with this man, he tells me he loves me, adores me and can see our future together. He tells me his marriage has been unhappy for years and has left twice before but always went back which he says he regrets.
We both have an overwhelming guilt at what we are doing, we’ve had arguments, cried about it and I’ve walked away 4 times but we hate not speaking to each other. We get on so well, we chat about everything, our kids, our work is similar so we understand the pressures and we have fun. He has a work incident right now and states once it’s resolved he will leave her.
But do affairs work out ever? I lay awake at night wondering what’s to come, will we ever work, will we be happy? My friends worry as I don’t go out in case there is a chance of seeing him. It’s all a bit of a mess and wonder if I should walk away for good but fear it will take me a long time to get over him.

Should the wives also lose all feeling for their husbands once they discover he's had an affair? Are they somehow moral failures if their love endures despite what a terrible person he is?

@DrSbaitso

Should the wives also lose all feeling for their husbands once they discover he's had an affair? Are they somehow moral failures if their love endures despite what a terrible person he is?

I have more sympathy because they are often offsetting their disappointment and anger against a long, happy, shared history, financial security, their children's well-being.

But yes, for me, the marriage would be dead and he would be gone. I don't value lying, cheating or cowardice in a partner and can't imagine ever finding them attractive, in any way, again.

they are often offsetting their disappointment and anger against a long, happy, shared history, financial security, their children's well-being.

I imagine that while an OW would be unlikely to have all this with him, she'll have other memories that caused her to fall in love or lost that she also finds hard to let go. OP is a classic case of feeling pretty shit until MM gives her a sense of desirability again. That stuff is powerful.

But yes, for me, the marriage would be dead and he would be gone. I don't value lying, cheating or cowardice in a partner and can't imagine ever finding them attractive, in any way, again.

Ok, I can understand and respect that. But is it a moral failing in a wife not to respond that same way? If women are supposed to lose all feeling when a man is revealed to be a cad?

It seems @DrSbaitso you wish to steer the conversation round to the trails and tribulations of an ow, who should not bear any responsibility of an affair or whose feelings should be taken into account.

I think that moral failing you say a wife should feel is the morality of forgiveness in the face of betrayal, for the sake of others not just herself.

Why didn’t I walk the 4 times because I didn’t want to have to deal with the pain of someone else leaving me

@JodyD1973 have you considered that's why you are in a relationship with a MM. He can't leave you or let you down because he's not yours to begin with. His existing relationship automatically restricts the development of your relationship with him and possibilities for the future so you don't have to feel that fear of abandonment again.

If you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, give it a month after his work situation is sorted to do as he's promised, but really I think you know what you need to do. It's bloody hard when life has put you through the mill and someone is the bit of light you need,but ultimately you will have much more respect for yourself and free yourself up to meet someone you deserve who can be there for you unequivocally.

If you haven't already done so, it might be worth looking into counselling...marriage breakups are a fucker and theres no shame asking for help in working through your feelings.

@Onthedunes

It seems *@DrSbaitso* you wish to steer the conversation round to the trails and tribulations of an ow, who should not bear any responsibility of an affair or whose feelings should be taken into account.

I think that moral failing you say a wife should feel is the morality of forgiveness in the face of betrayal, for the sake of others not just herself.

If you insist on seeing an honest discussion about female sexuality as championing OW, I really can't help you. It's to be expected when you have a simplistic and moralistic view of what should shut it off.

And I'm certainly not the one saying it's a moral failing to remain attracted to a man who's a cad! I'm saying the exact opposite! You got offended by the idea earlier on, remember?

I'm asking: if a man being a cad should automatically end any sexual feeling in any righteous woman, does this apply to wives? Are they morally failing too if they ever sleep with him again and retain feelings?

You appear to be saying no (I would agree). So it would appear that female sexuality isn't actually a kind of moralism flip switch after all. Who'd have thunk.

Life is a series of choices. We decide what to do when faced with a dilemma, based on our past experiences, upbringing, education, religion (if we have any), our beliefs about what constitutes right and wrong, and our conscience.

Attraction and desire have not one shit to give about all of the above.

All of the above, however, hopefully means we give a shit how we treat other people, whether we’re a man or a woman.

I'm asking: if a man being a cad should automatically end any sexual feeling in any righteous woman, does this apply to wives? Are they morally failing too if they ever sleep with him again and retain feelings?

If an OW sleeps with a married man, they're choosing to be complicit in someone cheating on and lying to to their partner.

If a wife continues to sleep with a partner after they find out he cheats, she isn't hurting an unknowing party.

Very different.

@fourminutestosavetheworld

"Why is nobody suggesting that a married man should, by reason of his marriage, never again feel any stirring for any woman not his wife?"

Start a thread asking mn what they think of men who cheat. This one was started by ow so opinions naturally focus on her role.

No matter how attractive I found a married man, the minute he revealed himself to be a disloyal, cowardly liar I would go off him. I can't speak for anyone else but that's how I feel and I never really understand how others can continue to find such a man attractive. Low standards I suppose.

Oh, I've seen plenty of threads on here about men who cheat. They are usually geared towards questioning why women would sleep with them. And you can guarantee that many posts on the subject will start with a single line saying the man is responsible for his marriage, before going into paragraphs and paragraphs about how disgusting and evil the OW is. And any suggestion that a man (or woman) is solely responsible for his own promises will be met with increasingly furious posts that want to blame the OW at least 50%, and get very very offended at the idea that it might actually be entirely up to him about where he puts his dick.

And why?

Because, once again, women expect other women not to want their husbands, because they think female sexuality should be a kind of flip switch of moral righteousness.

And it's not.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

I'm asking: if a man being a cad should automatically end any sexual feeling in any righteous woman, does this apply to wives? Are they morally failing too if they ever sleep with him again and retain feelings?

If an OW sleeps with a married man, they're choosing to be complicit in someone cheating on and lying to to their partner.

If a wife continues to sleep with a partner after they find out he cheats, she isn't hurting an unknowing party.

Very different.

But that doesn't alter the fact that she's continuing to sleep with a man whom she knows to be a liar etc. And according to PPs, that should switch off female desire if you're a good person.

But it clearly doesn't.

To clarify, I'm making the point that this DOESN'T make a woman a bad person. It just indicates why the "but you shouldn't want a man at all if he's a cheat" thought process is overly simplistic and unrealistic.

No, they don’t work out. The level of gruesomeness a cheater needs to inflict on their partner to be with you tells you all you need to know about their moral compass. It is fine to leave someone for a new partner. But it is not ok to cheat. If the feelings are strong enough that they’d happily fuck someone else, then that current relationship is done. There is no excuse for betrayal. Your married man is rubbish. Don’t waste your time. And should you ‘win’ such a glory, I promise he’ll betray you too. You’ve idealised him because you can’t quite have him. Move on. Good luck.

But that doesn't alter the fact that she's continuing to sleep with a man whom she knows to be a liar etc. And according to PPs, that should switch off female desire if you're a good person.

You say it's overly simplistic but unless you think people are lying about their own feelings, sometimes it is that black and white.

If I found a guy unbelievably attractive and thought if I was single I would absolutely be keen on dating him, if I found out he was married I would still find him attractive physically but I honestly wouldn't find it attractive if he was pursuing me while he was married.

People aren't saying they can switch of attraction to married men when it comes to them being physically attractive or finding certain elements of their personally attractive. They're saying that them finding them physically attractive / having sexual chemistry would be overriden by the fact they are married so would compartmentalise the guy as unavailable therefore not someone they'd pursue.

Er, no.
The anger towards OW is usually because of of her being actively complicit in the deception of another person and adding to their pain. No-one is suggesting that her morals should prevent her finding him attractive or desirable, her morals should hopefully prevent her from acting on her attraction and desire. I doubt women actually believe that other women won’t or shouldn’t find their husband attractive.

And unless it is rape, he can’t put his dick anywhere if the other party decides the right thing to do is walk away, no matter how hot she thinks he is. It’s not her responsibility to police him, or his marriage, no, that’s his responsibility. But it’s most certainly her responsibility to police herself.
OW who know a man is married and continue to pursue the relationship are complicit. There’s no point their bleating that his marriage is nothing to do with them. His marriage has everything to do with them if they decide to help him insert themselves into it.
The husband breaks the vows and is responsible for the affair, but the OW is never entirely blameless unless she has no idea he isn’t single.

This has absolutely nothing to do with sexuality, both parties obviously find each other attractive regardless of relationship status, but it has everything to do with personal moral standards as to what they do about it and how they treat other people.

I don't know @DrSbaitso

All I know is if there was no affair, no cheating husband, no ow, there would be no moral dilemma to mull over.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

But that doesn't alter the fact that she's continuing to sleep with a man whom she knows to be a liar etc. And according to PPs, that should switch off female desire if you're a good person.

You say it's overly simplistic but unless you think people are lying about their own feelings, sometimes it is that black and white.

If I found a guy unbelievably attractive and thought if I was single I would absolutely be keen on dating him, if I found out he was married I would still find him attractive physically but I honestly wouldn't find it attractive if he was pursuing me while he was married.

People aren't saying they can switch of attraction to married men when it comes to them being physically attractive or finding certain elements of their personally attractive. They're saying that them finding them physically attractive / having sexual chemistry would be overriden by the fact they are married so would compartmentalise the guy as unavailable therefore not someone they'd pursue.

I haven't accused anyone of lying. If they say their desire would be turned off entirely by someone being married, I believe them.

But I don't think it makes them morally superior to a woman who would reject the man because it would be wrong, even though her desire remained unchanged.

And I don't see why it isn't enough that she wouldn't have the affair, she's also got to be absolutely desireless while she doesn't do it. She can't even be tempted, or she's failed.

And I think it's interesting that so many of them truly can't fathom that female sexuality often (usually?) isn't a moral flip switch. They say themselves that they absolutely cannot understand why someone would be an OW. Is anyone this utterly mystified about why a man might have an affair?

And I do think it's simplistic not to be able to understand why not everyone responds to sexual situations the way one would oneself.

@Onthedunes

I don't know *@DrSbaitso*

All I know is if there was no affair, no cheating husband, no ow, there would be no moral dilemma to mull over.

There needs only to be no cheating husband. Stay faithful to your own promises, and that's all it takes.

Would you be happy with a man who propositioned women all the time and was faithful only because they all said no?

The anger towards OW is usually because of of her being actively complicit in the deception of another person and adding to their pain.

Nah. It's just displaced anger because it's easier to hate a stranger (presumably) than someone you trusted, especially if you hope to get through it. And because lots of people have moralistic views about women's sexuality, as we have seen.

he can’t put his dick anywhere if the other party decides the right thing to do is walk away

Oh, and because even in 2021, we still think women are responsible for men's sexual ethics. You would presumably be fine with him hanging out all over Tinder and Fabswingers, as long as the women all said no. No changes there then.

"John, you bastard, I can't believe you cheated on me!"
"Hey, it's only half my fault, babe!"

Years ago when I was single, I could guarantee that almost every Friday in a wine bar in the city I lived in, after office kicking-out time, me and my friends would get hit on. Some of the guys were slightly older men who were clearly married. Sone of them were happy to say so and one once referred to it as his ‘night off’ 🤢. Some of them were very attractive, smart and funny. I did fancy them. However, the fact that they were married did put me off seeing them as a potential date, yes. Still found them undeniably attractive, even if morally unpleasant individuals.
They were very sexy untrustworthy players, sadly. Sexually off-putting? No. Didn’t alter their physique or smile or whatever else was drop dead gorgeous about them.
Their loose morals was the bit that put me off.

Ok, no one said a woman who turns down a man but feels desire is any less moral than someone who has pure thoughts.

No one has totally pure thoughts we are all the same, with all the same temptations that some can control, some can't obviously.

Desire, which you have accused me of lacking in incedentally, doesn't come into the equasion for me when they are married, I look beyond, I envisage the wife, the children, the shared history the lifetime which I know nothing of and think to myself even if I did not have empathy for the family unit I would still not have the confidence to think I could ever possibly replace that.

It boils down to entitlement, both the husband and the ow, it's not about sexual liberation/sexuality on par with a man as you seem to be associating this with.

Both parties are culpable, your refusal to accept the ow bears no reponsibility is your perogative but it is not a view most people wish to adopt.

Emancipation does not come from being available for the opposite sex to use to harm others.

Oh good grief. Read the post and you’ll see what I actually wrote. Your selective edits are out of context and explained by my next sentences which you blatantly ignored.

I said in my post it wasn’t up to the OW to police the MM. it was the very next sentence you chose to ignore after your rough edit of what I actually said:
“ It’s not her responsibility to police him, or his marriage, no, that’s his responsibility. But it’s most certainly her responsibility to police herself.”
That is what I wrote. In what way does that imply I think that the woman is responsible for the man’s sexual ethics? Your edit puts a totally different inaccurate spin on what was said.

The anger isn’t always misplaced at all. I said (again, it’s all in my post if you bother to read it) that the affair is the husband’s responsibility. The OW is not to blame for the affair, she is to blame for knowingly helping him inflict pain on another person for her own selfish interests. Most OW say they feel guilty for what they are doing and guilty about the OM’s wife and children. If they are blameless, what on earth do they have to feel guilty about? They know very well what they should feel guilty about. Aside from what he is doing, they are behaving reprehensibly in their own right. The OW’s wrongdoing is a side issue to who is to blame fir the affair itself. I said she is to blame fir helping inflict pain on another human being.
The OW is complicit. It’s not the same thing as being to blame for the affair at all. If an individual knows what they are doing is morally wrong and could do irreparable damage to another person and their children, then I don’t think anger is at all misplaced. Why do people always think that betrayed wives’ anger is solely directed at the OW? Most women are furious with both of them. Rightly so.

@Onthedunes that was a reply to drSbaitso, not your post.

@Thewookiemustgo

Yes it's frustrating isn't it.

We understand your viewpoint exactly Dr, it is one in which you believe the ow should be absolved of any guilt, in any affair with any mm.

What would be interesting is how you came to have aquired these views, what shaped your world into the belief that people are not responsible for their OWN actions.

Ok it is not breaking the law to sleep with a mm and you would not be procecuted for it but there surely in your life must have been boundaries that you adhered to.
Forget about the mm, think about you and your actions, are you happy with your own standards of morality.

Do you wish to hurt others?
Do you care if you hurt others.
Would you care if someone hurt yourself or your family.

We are all accountable for our actions here on earth, maybe one day you will see that and adopt some compassion and empathy for others, instead of making the rules up to suit your own desires.

And I think it's interesting that so many of them truly can't fathom that female sexuality often (usually?) isn't a moral flip switch. They say themselves that they absolutely cannot understand why someone would be an OW. Is anyone this utterly mystified about why a man might have an affair?

I agree this is very interesting. I never thought of it that way, but it is true that OW constantly hear 'you are pathetic, how could you do that'. I imagine that OM get the 'having an affair is shit behaviour' comments but apart from that I doubt anyone questions why they do it and enjoy it.

@IamAporcupine

If you believe ow have sex with mm men purely for the sexual gratification you are sadly wrong.

@Thewookiemustgo

His wife thinks her life is just as she experiences it, even though she is being lied to and deceived on a daily basis. The affair is working for her, only because she has no idea of its existence.

Once she knows the truth:

she will be completely devastated,
her mental health will plummet,
she may have suicidal thoughts or commit suicide,
her general health will plummet,
her self-esteem will be on the floor,
she will feel like a total idiot and feel completely humiliated,
her ability to ever be able to trust another human being might be gone forever,
she will be tormented by mind movies about the two of you together and fear she is losing her sanity,
she will be angry and feel hate towards another human being like she never knew she could,
their children will be severely affected,
both hers and the children’s financial security and welfare and future on a day to day basis will be under threat,
close relatives and friends will be devastated and filled with worry.

Her husband will have caused this and you will have knowingly helped and encouraged him to do it.

Oh, so it looks like affairs don’t work out for everybody after all.

So true...

I am that wife feeling a heart ache so deep I can't eat, can't sleep and at times cannot breath, whose husband of 25 years had an affair. My whole life and future dreams changed, joint business up in smoke, facing homelessness in 6 weeks, no where to go with my dogs.....destroyed by two selfish egotistical and immoral people and yes, I not only blame my husband but the OW too. Now 10 months on from discovery day, 4.5 stone less, half the head of hair I had (it all dropped out).....did I feckin deserve this???

I could spit in your eye and worse OP.

I tried forgiveness upon discovery, tried moving forward, believing the pathetic " I've ended affair, so give me a boy scout badge" bullshit, only to find the affair went deeper underground. I was gaslighted, manipulated, stonewalled, betrayed, used and mentally abused by both of them. Due to limberance she turned my husband into a shallow, hard and self centred man that none of his family or friends knew

I received texts from the OW along the lines of "how beautiful it is to look in xxxxx's eyes whilst he makes love to me"

I have had a bucketful so you get no sympathy from me. I want to jump in the screen and shake women like you. Totally abhorrent thing to do to a trying to lay claim on a man who is not yours in the first placee.. Women should be building each other up, not sneaking around after married men.

Strangely OW asking him to leave me, he never wanted to until I shoved him out and he isn't even with her now. Claims she wasn't who he "thought she was" - Karma

Best you pack him back to his wife with a promise not to tell. That poor woman does not deserve a rat of a husband like him and yes, you will not have been the first and won't be the last as far as he is concerned.