DP said my DD was racist

[salllysue]

Firstly, I just want to say that I apologise in advance if I use the wrong terminology in this post. I really don't want to upset anyone.

A bit of background -

DD is 14 and autistic. She's high functioning but has sensory and some social issues, and is extremely literal.

DP - I've been with him 4 years. We don't live together. He is quite opinionated and struggles if someone has a different opinion to him. I wouldn't say argumentative as such, but it can get a bit touchy. He gets on well with my DD.

My DD plays for a football team. Recently they have had 3 new girls join. We picked her up from training tonight and on the way back DP asked her how it was. She said it was ok and then said that all the new players are black and that they didn't have any beforehand. She didn't say anything further.

Now I know my DD, she wasn't being racist in the slightest (not all of her friends are white), she was just being her literal self and stating what she saw. DP was quiet on the way home.

We got back, DD went for a shower and DP turned round to me and said that it's awful that she could say something racist like that.

Long story short, he got extremely angry with me and said that I can't let her autism be an excuse for her to be racist. He would simply not listen to me saying that she wasn't, she was just saying her thoughts out loud.

After a few more words from DP about how she has been racist and I need to speak to her etc, he stomped off to the shop and has been off with me since being back.

I feel so upset that he has accused DD of this. I'd like to know other peoples take on it.

[quote MellowBird85]@TractorAndHeadphones

Again - would you find it acceptable to be described as ‘fat’, ‘wheelchair bound’ or ‘cross eyed’?

So you’re basically saying that being black / brown is some kind of negative trait? Also…

Racist definition: prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalised.

How is describing someone based on their skin colour showing prejudice / antagonism towards them?[/quote]
It’s not about whether it’s a negative trait. It’s something that ‘would be used as a physical description because it’s the most obvious thing’ .
The discussion here is about why race, along with the the things above, would be considered not socially acceptable to use as a descriptive characteristic. Why they’re consider disrespectful (the definition of an insult) although they’re perfectly factual.
And as previous posters have explained better than I do and given examples of - because it’s ‘othering’.
@BoredZelda, @FabianK and @HelpingJane in particular if I recall correctly.

A final point to note is that there are nuances. Nobody is saying that you cannot ever on pain of death mention anyone’s race ever. And OP’s daughter was just being literal - not racist.

It’s about accepting that contrary to the many posts here - race is not a neutral physician characteristic like height or eye colour. It’s a loaded one like physical disability. While a physical disability is loaded for being ‘negative’, race is loaded because of a history of oppression and the resulting associated connotations. That’s all people are saying. To pretend that it’s not, and it’s just ‘neutral’, is to erase the past and pretend that everything’s hunky dory.

Maybe it will be in the future - who knows? But at the moment it’s not

*pretend everything’s all good right now

I'm more concerned about your DP's general unpleasantness and complete lack of empathy and understanding

Precisely.

@HelpingJane

As I understood it she was pointing out that these were the first black members - it isn't even as if she just mentioned their colour randomly.

Yes but you wouldn't walk into work and announce "A black women has just got a job in the finance department, it's always been white people before!"

Would you? If not, why not??

Posters are just saying that OP might want to point out to her DD that what she said could be inappropriate in some contexts.

My husband was the first black officer in his police force. If you look online lots of forces will have pages about the first black officer, the first black sergeant/inspector etc. Same with women, first female Chief Constable.

It's commented on in other situations, the first black player in a football team, the first black mayor of a city. I remember my old school having a big article in the local paper about the new Head being the first black Head in the city. It was something they boasted about and I've heard him say it with pride.

It is pointed out as a positive, a step in the right direction.

I think your DP is angry about something else or it goes deeper, because it was a big overreaction. Perhaps he is struggling with the family dynamics generally and he picked on this issue as something to express his anger about.
DD wasn't being racist, however despite her difficulties, she will ideally need to try to learn when it is appropriate to mention skin colour and when it isn't, as this is a very sensitive issue.

@ancientgran yes but they’re clearly pointing it out in the context of a discussion about diversity - and mentioning it as an achievement. That is what is meant by nuance taking into account that people of these races were historically denied opportunity.
To just point it out as a ‘factual’ statement like ‘the sky is blue’ with no context is the issue.

[quote TractorAndHeadphones]@ancientgran yes but they’re clearly pointing it out in the context of a discussion about diversity - and mentioning it as an achievement. That is what is meant by nuance taking into account that people of these races were historically denied opportunity.
To just point it out as a ‘factual’ statement like ‘the sky is blue’ with no context is the issue.[/quote]
She didn't just say they were black, she said they were the first black team members so I think the context is the same. Unless you were commenting on the "first black....." being a bad thing I don't see why it is any different for her to say it rather than a school to say it.

We are talking about a 14 year old girl on the autistic spectrum here. This is not a workplace situation or any of the others cited above.

We could choose to interpret her statement as a positive step forward.

Then again, I probably would have described their most defining characteristic

Defining a person by the colour of their skin seems awfully like racism to me. What if there were 4 black women and you ere trying to distinguish between them, what would you have done then? The answer is, you would look for something different to use than skin colour. The fact you and all your colleagues could find absolutely nothing to distinguish the woman, other than her skin colour, is absolutely telling.

Again - would you find it acceptable to be described as ‘fat’, ‘wheelchair bound’ or ‘cross eyed’?

“Wheelchair bound” is the epitome of defining someone by their disability, it has very negative connotations. If you must use a wheelchair to point someone out (and that’s not a great thing to do either, the appropriate term is “wheelchair user”.

“Cross eyed” went out with the ark too.

And no, black, ginger, girl in the wheelchair aren't rude descriptions.

DD is a wheelchair user. She hates being defined as “the one in the wheelchair.

Is this Child being labelled as Racist ?

@FabianK

I am black and my thoughts on this that while what she did wasn’t racist it’s not ok. It’s othering.

There are times like identifying someone or in conversations about diversity that mentioning someone’s race makes sense but saying that the new players are all black and there were any before is a really strange thing to say.

It’s not relevant at all.

If a new co-worker said that to me, I’d report it and avoid them.

It's not a 'strange thing to say' when you're 14 or when you have autism - pretty standard for for a 14 yo with autism to notice & comment. It's just an observation, no more.

Noticing someone’s skin colour is not racist. Stating someone is a certain race is not racists.

He definitely went the wrong way about it- but as a previous poster has said, when she gets a part time job in a couple of years, she could land herself in hot water.

OP’s DD’s colleague at the sainsburys’ check out just clocking in: God, it’s busy, what have the customers been like today?
OP’s DD: They have all been black.

So I agree, your daughter definitely isn’t a racist but you aren’t helping her with constantly excusing her for ‘saying what she sees!’. I would asking outreach for support, or trying some social stories that explain when we ask what someone is like, we mean what words they use, what things they do, what their personality is like. She may be on the spectrum but good social skills need to be modelled and taught- your DP was a knob and didn’t go this, just used this experience as a chance to go off on her.

@Suprima Thanks for your comment! I just wanted to say though that I am not 'excusing' her. DD struggles massively with understanding social queues, what is right and wrong to say, and that is purely down to her being autistic. It is not an excuse. Yes I have tried to explain why something might not be ok to say but she doesn't always 'get' it. And yes I do believe she is going to struggle when she gets a job!

Reading all these bizarre contortions of logic and language that posters use to try and make your daughter racist is even more depressing than your partner's wokelord arrogance.

@ButterflyAway

Noticing someone’s skin colour is not racist. Stating someone is a certain race is not racists.

Not necessarily. If you walk past a black person in the street and comment "oh look a black person" then whilst that's a fact , you would know it's not an acceptable way to behave.

@Abhannmor

Reading all these bizarre contortions of logic and language that posters use to try and make your daughter racist is even more depressing than your partner's wokelord arrogance.

it's quite obvious isn't it 🌸

@TractorAndHeadphones The whitesplaining that goes on here is depressing. It's wilful ignorance. People try to explain things like a history of oppression, micro aggressions, and they get some idiot accusing them of "wokery" - because being woken to racism and other forms of bigotry is clearly a bad thing 🙄

OP I don't think your daughter is actively racist but yes, as you've acknowledged she is likely to upset people with this kind of talk. So you definitely need to have a talk about how it's really not appropriate to comment on people's physical appearance, unless it's relevant to the topic.

I wonder why you didn't accede this in your discussion with your DP? I know when someone criticises your child you tend to immediately go on the defensive. But from your OP, it absolutely sounds that you were using her autism as an excuse, and that would have annoyed me too.

Your later posts sound like you have accepted that it was inappropriate and will talk with her so that's good news!

[quote MellowBird85]@TractorAndHeadphones

Again - would you find it acceptable to be described as ‘fat’, ‘wheelchair bound’ or ‘cross eyed’?

So you’re basically saying that being black / brown is some kind of negative trait? Also…

Racist definition: prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalised.

How is describing someone based on their skin colour showing prejudice / antagonism towards them?[/quote]
No, what we are saying is that if race isn't an issue then why make it one by drawing attention to it. If you were watching the men's 500m on TV and the fasted 3 runners were black, would the first three people in a race be described as all being black by the commentator? Of course not. Why? Because their colour is irrelevant.

@EvenMoreFuriousVexation I didn't get a chance to have a proper conversation with DP because of him ranting at me about DD being racist and then stomping off. He knows her well enough to know her brain doesn't work the same way as ours does, and that due to her autism she does say things that the rest of us might not say. That is what I found the most upsetting - basically using her autism as a reason to call her racist!

I think the main issue here is your DP's reaction. He should be communicating with you in a way that shows compassion and understanding. If he doesn't like what he heard then he needs to sensibly sit down, explain why and how it could have been viewed and ask you whether you are planning to say anything to your daughter and whether you need any help on considering the approach or letting it drop if you don't want to raise it. It almost reads like he is ashamed of herm I hope I am wrong.

Your fiancee seems to have a temper-- I would suggest finishing with him.

He knows her well enough to know her brain doesn't work the same way as ours does, and that due to her autism she does say things that the rest of us might not say.

There are ways she could've phrased it differently, and as she is only 14 she will still be picking skills up so it is worth mentioning so she can improve. I have ADHD/some ASD and I'm still learning and realizing things about social skills all the time at 44. Sometimes I say things in a not-ideal way. I try and forgive myself but I don't just go 'meh, I can't help it, I get a free pass because autism.' I try and forgive myself and resolve not to do whatever-it--is again (of course I might end up doing something similar again, but then I just get back on the wagon again.) Don't get me wrong, it is very upsetting sometimes.

If a child has ASD sometimes things do need to be pointed out (they still need guidance on their behaviour, as all children do) but it can be done calmly and without assuming that they are being deliberately rude or whatever.

You could tell her people's skin colour is not something you should mention in conversation or people might think you're racist.

Maybe explain it like:- Most people don't mention other people's race. Some people see people being black as a negative thing (they're racist.) Racists tend to mention people's skin colour more than other people, so if you mention it you risk sounding like one of them.

(I know there's a whole thing about people not being 'colourblind' but that'd get more difficult to explain maybe.)

If a person's race needs to be used as a discriptor to identify who did what occasionally, then that's different, as it can't really be avoided.

'I'll get the consultant to see you.'
'He's just been in.'
'Oh, has he? Did he give you his name?'
'No, quite tall, a black gentleman.'

Even then it can feel awkward to say it lol.

But how could I - an adult white Woman, not autistic, then ever say ‘our previously all white team has welcomed 3 black women’ ? If we’re going to do anything about racism we can’t pretend it doesn’t exist by making the very word ‘black’ somehow unacceptable surely ? There is a myriad of situation when we do need to use ‘black’ and ‘white’ and talk about our workplace or whatever representation and discrimination etc.
I would definitely have said this and it would probably have been a presage to something like ‘thank god’ or ‘looks like their diversity programme has had an effect’ or ‘we’ll be more like every other team finally’ or ‘we need to make sure they are supported if any racist shit occurs’ etc etc etc.
I can’t wrap my head around not being able to converse this way (to someone of any race) for fear of being racist.
Totally understand that I may not understand something because I am white - have lived my life knowing a similar disjunct as a woman dealing with men’s voice and view.

Ffs. I would have just replied to her 'that's great that the team is becoming more inclusive'.

Rather than spouting out some shit about racism.

Your partner is nuts. And a bully. Sack the git off.

@salllysue According to www.scopeaust.org.au/information-resources-hub/learn-disability/autism-spectrum-disorder/
Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) is a developmental disability that affects a person's ability to engage and interact with the world around them.

Your DP saying that her autism is not an excuse for the way she communicated her factual observations is discriminatory of disability. And that’s not ok. After 4 years of knowing you and your daughter he should understand ASD and have reasonable expectations. Him becoming so angry and offended shows that he hasn’t bothered to understand ASD at all and would make me pretty mad at him to be honest.

She wasn’t being racist, nor was she discriminating against her new team mates. So, I think he is being quite manipulative to try and twist it that way. Or he’s so politically correct that he’s completely lost the plot.