DP said my DD was racist

[salllysue]

Firstly, I just want to say that I apologise in advance if I use the wrong terminology in this post. I really don't want to upset anyone.

A bit of background -

DD is 14 and autistic. She's high functioning but has sensory and some social issues, and is extremely literal.

DP - I've been with him 4 years. We don't live together. He is quite opinionated and struggles if someone has a different opinion to him. I wouldn't say argumentative as such, but it can get a bit touchy. He gets on well with my DD.

My DD plays for a football team. Recently they have had 3 new girls join. We picked her up from training tonight and on the way back DP asked her how it was. She said it was ok and then said that all the new players are black and that they didn't have any beforehand. She didn't say anything further.

Now I know my DD, she wasn't being racist in the slightest (not all of her friends are white), she was just being her literal self and stating what she saw. DP was quiet on the way home.

We got back, DD went for a shower and DP turned round to me and said that it's awful that she could say something racist like that.

Long story short, he got extremely angry with me and said that I can't let her autism be an excuse for her to be racist. He would simply not listen to me saying that she wasn't, she was just saying her thoughts out loud.

After a few more words from DP about how she has been racist and I need to speak to her etc, he stomped off to the shop and has been off with me since being back.

I feel so upset that he has accused DD of this. I'd like to know other peoples take on it.

Could you explain that describing people by their physical features isn't the way we usually talk about them? Better to say something we like or admire about them. So she could have said we had three new members and they were all good players, friendly girls etc.

You could practice it with her by describing people she knows or using photos of a range of people. She does need to learn that some things are not generally said aloud.

If you have her rules like this, she might well learn not to say anything about skin colour, height, weight etc, which will ultimately help her socially.

"Give her rules".

[quote salllysue]@MissTrip82 I agree. It is like she has no filter and as my brain doesn't work the same way hers does, I'm at a loss with how to try and help her recognise that what she says could be taken the wrong way, even if it is a neutral observation. She massively struggles with the social side of things and that includes understanding why a 'fact' may not be the right thing to say in some situations. [/quote]
I don’t known if it helps (every autistic child is different) but my DP just avoids all physical description …. It’s a lot better than all the nuances that he then tries to memorise and gets very stressed out about

"If we’re just stating facts, would it have been okay to say that three overweight girls joined & they’d never had overweight girls in the team before?

Or how about saying three lesbians joined & they’d never had lesbians
before?"
I have ASD and when I was a child I might well have said something like this because I don't instinctively "get" when a statement of fact is considered offensive and when it isn't. I think the only solution is mentioning it might not be appropriate but then also the euphemism treadmill can be exhausting for us and there's a non-zero chance she'll go completely the other way and be afraid to refer to anyone's race at all, ever (this is how my brain works and it took me a while to find the balance of what was appropriate when).

Your DP may or may not have over reacted.
The comment may or may not have been inappropriate.
After four years, why doesn't he know her well enough to understand how her brain works?
Could he not have calmly said ' ah, yes, that may be true, but perhaps we won't just describe people by their skin colour.' Job done?

@TractorAndHeadphones I'm actually not angry at all, I'm just sick of this constant reaching to find offence on behalf of other people who wouldn't take offence at the issue themselves.

Fat and cross eyed are generally regarded as insulting by most, it's just really a not very nice way of describing people. I have before described someone as "you know, the bigger lady with the blond hair". when trying to describe someone as there weren't really any other characteristics to describe her by. However I wouldn't say "oh, the fat woman", as that is just insulting. It would be disingenuous to claim that you can't see the difference between the two and I know you can see the distinction, even if you want to claim that you can't.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with describing someone as their most defining characteristic, as long as that isn't done in an insulting way. And no, black, ginger, girl in the wheelchair aren't rude descriptions. Cross eyed, fat etc generally are for most folk. The former are simple, to the point characteristics which would immediately describe someone without dancing around their numerous other non descript characteristics. And finally no, I've not contradicted myself at all thank you, I'm not sure where you are pulling that from.

My nephew isn’t white and I’m the only white person on his side of the family (I married into a different race ) and he always referred to me as his white aunty who’s annoying (he’s a teenager and I try and hug and kiss him in front of other family members 🤣)

So anyway no she’s definitely not being racist going on what my nephew says about me, actually come to think of it when we fly over to their country some of the people he’s told about me meet me they say oh you (nephew’s name) white aunty and I just say yes nice to meet you, i never have a melt down and saying that side of my family are racists it’s a statement of fact! I am white 🤷‍♀️

@BoredZelda

There were about 30 of us, all from the UK, one girl who was black - let's call her Janine - and another who was of Indian origin - let's call her Jane

What would you have done if those women had been white? How would you have distinguished them then?

Then again, I probably would have described their most defining characteristic. For example, if someone was asking me who in the crowd was my sister (who is white - ginger hair, pale skin, freckles) I'd probably say the ginger girl. Which is her most defining physical characteristic.

What's racist about that? I'm black and find it so frustrating when someone is trying to describe somebody to me and won't say they're black in case it offends. She's simply made an observation 🤷🏾‍♀️

Well if she was racist so too is every media outlet and football team etc. The debate about racism in football (and of course many other areas of life) depends on us being able to describe what racism is. We have to be able to say ‘(insert name if club) today signed their first black goalkeeper’ etc.
Context is everything sometimes
eg if I worked for Stonewall I might very well say ‘3 lesbians have joined the committee’ - it would be centrally relevant (and probably pretty astonishing frankly)

I’m a lawyer and I would, and have, said ‘did you see the number of black Silks in today’s silks list or judicial appointments etc. It is interesting. More than interesting it’s really important.
For a team which has previously been white to welcome 3 black players is interesting and noteworthy and could have started more conversation about that fact or not. In itself it is not racist to say that. I think I think it would be racist to feel you could not say that in that context. Why is the very fact of blackness something which can’t be said ?

*When I was in India , lots of comments were made about my white skin. And my whiteness in general.

Should I have assumed that they were all racist? Or doesn't it apply to me because I'm white? *
Correct. It doesn't apply to you because you are white.

I am black and my thoughts on this that while what she did wasn’t racist it’s not ok. It’s othering.

There are times like identifying someone or in conversations about diversity that mentioning someone’s race makes sense but saying that the new players are all black and there were any before is a really strange thing to say.

It’s not relevant at all.

If a new co-worker said that to me, I’d report it and avoid them.

@salllysue My DP is white.

It’s always white people who are easily triggered by race! Unless your Dd said a racial slur or said she didn’t like to play with someone because they were a particular race, then she is not racist. She was making an observation.

There was a MN thread recently where people said “mixed race” was racist and that there is no such thing as race. I am mixed race (white and East Asian so different races, not heritage) and white people were telling me that I was racist for identifying as mixed race

@PatricksRum

*When I was in India , lots of comments were made about my white skin. And my whiteness in general.

Should I have assumed that they were all racist? Or doesn't it apply to me because I'm white? *
Correct. It doesn't apply to you because you are white.

I agree.

Of course white people can experience prejudice and discrimination for being white but they cannot experienced racism. Racism is systemic and even in a non-white majority country like India, a white person still benefits from being a white person.g. White expats, beauty standards, colourism etc

but I actually find it quite shocking that you are comparing rude insults to be equal to skin colour other than white.

Indeed, and that in itself is more racist than what was being discussed in the OP!

This is such a minefield and I think your poor DD has been caught up in society's confusion about how we should treat race, especially minority races.

Whilst the vast majority of us can recognise out and out racism that's clearly designed to hurt and offend, some think the mere mention of race as a point of difference is racist. I do understand the arguments about othering and defining people by race, but I also think that making race unmentionable and almost taboo is dangerous. Difference doesn't have to be negative and can be a point of celebration or even just neutrality.

It's almost a form of racism in itself to project prejudice and negativity onto neutral statements of physical characteristics. We wouldn't leap to the assumption that someone was trying to other someone based on a description of hair or eye colour and yet skin colour is automatically flagged as racist. Like it or not, there are times when we need to describe other people's physical appearance and the dance around race seems insidious in itself.

DP needs to stop picking on your 14 year old autistic daughter and actually take the time to LEARN about the way she functions. He’s being an ignorant moron! X

@TractorAndHeadphones

Again - would you find it acceptable to be described as ‘fat’, ‘wheelchair bound’ or ‘cross eyed’?

So you’re basically saying that being black / brown is some kind of negative trait? Also…

Racist definition: prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalised.

How is describing someone based on their skin colour showing prejudice / antagonism towards them?

Your daughter was clearly being literal and not racist, and hopefully as she matures she will learn it's generally best not to mention physical characteristics as it can sometimes cause offense or could be misconstrued as intentionally offensive.

If a team of any sort has been unbalanced in some way then people will comment if that starts being corrected. Think the barrister comment above. I can think of a team at work which had always been all women (traditional 'female' roles), for years, and then 2 men joined and people commented on it. Not in a sexist way, but in a 'it's notable that suddenly that team is more balanced' way. I think it's human nature to notice and sometimes people vocalise what they've noticed. And in the safety of her own home your daughter pointed it out.

I can see that in public, with people who don't know her, someone might miscontrue it or see it as othering.

The much bigger deal for me would be your DP's approach to this. He sounds awful, stomping off and getting angry. It's like he was looking for something to get angry about.

@FabianK

I am black and my thoughts on this that while what she did wasn’t racist it’s not ok. It’s othering.

There are times like identifying someone or in conversations about diversity that mentioning someone’s race makes sense but saying that the new players are all black and there were any before is a really strange thing to say.

It’s not relevant at all.

If a new co-worker said that to me, I’d report it and avoid them.

This is very obvious…unless it’s said in the context of a diversity discussion. I’ve seen many posters point out that mumsnet was racist before. Never believed it until I’m seeing it right here. Luckily people in real life aren’t like this(to my face - but how many are behind closed doors) ? This thread has certainly been illuminating

He sounds like an unthinking dickhead OP, sorry.

It's natural for people to notice unusual or new things, good or bad. It's quite likely that if three people had joined her team who had very strong cockney accents (and maybe you lived in the north), or if three people joined who were unreleated but who all red hair (more unusual in England I would think), she could well have commented on that too.

@HelpingJane

As I understood it she was pointing out that these were the first black members - it isn't even as if she just mentioned their colour randomly.

Yes but you wouldn't walk into work and announce "A black women has just got a job in the finance department, it's always been white people before!"

Would you? If not, why not??

Posters are just saying that OP might want to point out to her DD that what she said could be inappropriate in some contexts.

and again you might be very pleased and the increased diversity!

Re your comment in your initial post re your partner:-
"He is quite opinionated and struggles if someone has a different opinion to him".

This is very telling re him and I am glad that you two do not live together.

Is this really the sort of man you want to be in a relationship with now?. I think he struggles with your DD because he at heart does not accept her as the person she is. He does not understand autism and on top of that does not want to understand autism either. Your DD is not racist and it is wrong for your DP to suggest she is. It also implies that you as her mother are in the wrong too.

Again - would you find it acceptable to be described as ‘fat’, ‘wheelchair bound’ or ‘cross eyed’?

That is so offensive it is hard to know where to begin. One of my children was cross eyed, he had multiple surgeries and years of treatment. Drawing attention to his eyes would be extremely rude. My husband is black, nothing offensive about that. My kids are mixed race nothing offensive about that.

No your daughter wasn't racist but for any other person it might not be racist but pointing out the differences when it isn't relevant.

Like if all 3 girls had long or short hair, would it have been mentioned when it is irrelevant? I doubt it.

Yes, if you asked which one is Annie and then you have to look at the physical differences to make it easy to describe.

So for example if someone asked me who I went out with. I would say 4 friends. Not 3 white friends and 1 black friend. However, if I was talking about someone and the person didn't know which of my friends I was referring to because they couldn't remember their names then I would say, the one with the long curly hair/ tall blonde/mixed race/wearing the red dress/comes spinning with me on Tuesdays.

My step kids are mixed race. I have never felt the need to describe them by their colour. It isn't something that I've consciously done, just isn't any more relevant than if they had red hair. I've described them as nice/fun/clever/great cook who I get on brilliantly with.