DH and women’s underwear

[Needanothername1234]

Feeling a bit sick and need someone to tell me if I’m being horrible.
My DH wears women’s knickers. I first found out when I discovered some close up photos of him wearing my underwear on his computer (which I occasionally used with his permission) This happened after we’d been together for about 2 years and had moved in together. He said that it was a little kink when he masturbated sometimes, no big deal, so I asked him not to because he’d ruin my underwear.

Subsequently I found some knickers in the house after I’d been away. I immediately assumed he was having an affair, so was relieved to discover that he’d bought himself more underwear so that he wouldn’t fuck mine up. We talked about it, and I told him I felt upset by his furtive behaviour, and did he want to wear them during sex? I thought that by incorporating them into our sex life it would make him feel less ashamed. So we did that occasionally, and he openly had a few pairs he would wear with me, and I thought that would be enough.

We are now married and have been together for 10 years. During that time we’ve been through some really hard experiences including infertility, and our sex life has dwindled to almost non-existence. This is partly due to my libido disappearing (perimenopause) but also because DH makes no attempt to have sex. I’ve told him many times that I want to have sex with him and be intimate, even if my lack of libido means that I rarely make the first move. He swears that he still fancies me, and when we do have sex he still seems to be keen.

Over the last week we’ve been sleeping separately (insomnia/snoring) and I noticed that he’d shaved all his pubic hair off. I jokingly said that he was using the spare room as an opportunity to live out his sexual fantasies without my oppressive presence, and he just laughed and said it was more comfortable in the hot weather. Anyway, I lost something a couple of days ago and asked if I could look through his drawers to see if it was mixed up with his stuff. I then found two drawers full of knickers, stockings, etc. When I asked him about it it became apparent that he has now replaced me with masturbation, and he wears this stuff all the time and regularly buys it. I feel sick. It feels like he’s cheating on me, but not even with another woman. I’ve been cast aside in favour of a load of nasty polyester. The secrecy makes me feel so sick.

We’ve talked about it a lot, and it seems as though he wants to wear it all the time. I have no problem with him wearing it in bed sometimes as a dirty sex thing, but am really repulsed by the idea of him shaving and wearing it day to day. I feel like a horrible intolerant person, but I don’t know if I can fancy him if he goes down this feminine route. It really turns me off.

I am getting hrt to try and deal with my libido, but it feels as though he’s already written off our sex life. He’s a wonderful kind man and we’ve been through so much and I love him dearly, but I’m really struggling with the way he’s just written me out of his sex life. It’s crazy that I feel jealous. How do I deal with this?

I'm so pleased to hear that you have been able talk to your DH
I hope you can find a happy balance, if you are more involved in shopping and selecting things then as a pp said it will give you a level of control.
As others have said its important to consider your own feelings and emotions as well.
Hope this ends happily for you both.

The ops DH likes wearing knickers it's a huge and frankly ridiculous assumption that this is going to lead to him wanting to live as a womam.
The op is trying to save the relationship she has with a man she clearly loves.
If she is happy to find a compromise that works then surely supporting her in achieving that is the important thing.

I've been there, and so have many other trans widows on MN.

Whether you think our experiences are relevant and whether or not you chose to respect other women's lived experience is immaterial.

We are here for the OP if/when she needs us.

Now that more of our stories are out there she can read them and make an informed judgement based on how these situations usually pan out.

Women don't have to make decisions based on isolation and ignorance any more, because I have worked tirelessly for the last 4 years to build an evidence base which allows women to make informed decisions.

What I refuse to do though, is facilitate these men by saying it might turn out OK. It won't. The OP and women like her have just got to decide whether they can put up with it, and if putting up with it prevents them being true to their own values or if they can bend their own values, go along with it, and remain sane.

I'd also suggest looking at poster's user names before trusting their advice.

How on earth do you arrive at Autogynephelia from simply wearing women's underwear??

They can google it and learn more about it. It’s very enlightening.

@TinselAngel

I'd also suggest looking at poster's user names before trusting their advice.

Not sure what you mean ?

@Imasoulman

I'm so pleased to hear that you have been able talk to your DH I hope you can find a happy balance, if you are more involved in shopping and selecting things then as a pp said it will give you a level of control. As others have said its important to consider your own feelings and emotions as well. Hope this ends happily for you both.

Ha! A level of control?! It absolutely won’t. It’s simply an illusion of control.

@TinselAngel

The ops DH likes wearing knickers it's a huge and frankly ridiculous assumption that this is going to lead to him wanting to live as a womam. The op is trying to save the relationship she has with a man she clearly loves. If she is happy to find a compromise that works then surely supporting her in achieving that is the important thing.

I've been there, and so have many other trans widows on MN.

Whether you think our experiences are relevant and whether or not you chose to respect other women's lived experience is immaterial.

We are here for the OP if/when she needs us.

Now that more of our stories are out there she can read them and make an informed judgement based on how these situations usually pan out.

Women don't have to make decisions based on isolation and ignorance any more, because I have worked tirelessly for the last 4 years to build an evidence base which allows women to make informed decisions.

What I refuse to do though, is facilitate these men by saying it might turn out OK. It won't. The OP and women like her have just got to decide whether they can put up with it, and if putting up with it prevents them being true to their own values or if they can bend their own values, go along with it, and remain sane.

I clearly said that the op doesn't owe her partner any acceptance over this.

By the way I accept that 100% of transwomen will begin their journey through clothing, why wouldn't they ?
But 100% of men who wear knickers absolutely do not go on to identify as a transwoman.

Could you ask that he comes to your bed once a week as a regular scheduled thing, no pantie wearing, and have normal married sex? then try to forget what he is up to in the spare room the rest of the time?

By the way I accept that 100% of transwomen will begin their journey through clothing, why wouldn't they ?
But 100% of men who wear knickers absolutely do not go on to identify as a transwoman.

He isn't just wearing knickers. He's got a secret stash of "knickers, stockings etc", he's shaving his body hair, he's taking photos (and probably sharing them online), he's shaving his body hair, he's moved into the spare bedroom and is no longer interested in sex with the OP, he's manipulating and minimising.

As I say- women don't have to accept that I know what I'm talking about, but when the OP needs us she knows where we are.

OP you are the centre of your world (in a self respectful, not self obsessed way!), and anyone who wants to live happily with you needs to work with your boundaries. I have no doubt there are other outcomes than LTB! But I think he and you do need to respect those boundaries of yours more for this to work. Your fear he might want to transition into a woman for example. Could be there's no chance of that and he needs to make that crystal clear to you, if not. You're so respectful of his, and trying to bend yours to his .. just make sure the same is happening for you regardless of how inconvenient this might be for him (ultimately that makes it all v honest).

@TinselAngel

By the way I accept that 100% of transwomen will begin their journey through clothing, why wouldn't they ? But 100% of men who wear knickers absolutely do not go on to identify as a transwoman.

He isn't just wearing knickers. He's got a secret stash of "knickers, stockings etc", he's shaving his body hair, he's taking photos (and probably sharing them online), he's shaving his body hair, he's moved into the spare bedroom and is no longer interested in sex with the OP, he's manipulating and minimising.

As I say- women don't have to accept that I know what I'm talking about, but when the OP needs us she knows where we are.

Once again I will say that I made it clear the op doesn't have to up with anything, she wants to make this work that's the support she is looking for.

I appreciate that you have some experience dealing with a similar situation but your experience is not going to be the same as everyone else's.

I will read through the stories on your site when I have a chance, I am sure they are interesting.
Is there actually a way of women getting support from your site though? Or is it just the stories and a list of resources?

This is a support thread for the OP and she will gain no benefit either from posters determined to minimise red flags, or from a derail where I (having been called onto the thread) have to justify my expertise.

OP when you need us we are here:

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4236287-trans-widows-escape-committee-5-and-so-it-continues

And best of luck

@Maskless

Could you ask that he comes to your bed once a week as a regular scheduled thing, no pantie wearing, and have normal married sex? then try to forget what he is up to in the spare room the rest of the time?

Eh, why should she have to do this? He is engaging in behaviour that she finds abhorrent. She does not have to tolerate this.

OP, I'm sorry. You are not a horrible or intolerant person. We are all entitled to our boundaries.

The truth is, if he had shown you who he was at the beginning of the relationship you would probably not have proceeded. So he kept it hidden. Now it is escalating.

TinselAngel and others have direct experience with this, it generally doesn't get better it gets worse. Think of it like an addiction, the secrecy, the lies, the escalation.

You need to decide your own boundaries here, what you are not willing to accept. And communicate that. Then if/when that line is crossed you will know he cares more about this urge than your relationship.

I wouldn't listen to Imasoulman, I'm guessing he is a guy who does similar and doesn't see anything wrong with it. But it is soul destroying for you, and will ruin your self confidence.

You do not need to accept this. That does not make you a bad person. He is the one changing the dynamics of your relationship, without your consent or consideration for how it is affecting you. Incredibly selfish.

There are some really interesting viewpoints on this thread, as well as the links to support groups etc, and I’m really sorry for those of you who have been through a similar experience. I’m very grateful for the time you’ve taken to reply to me.

I’ve had some very enlightening and frank conversations with DH in the last 24 hours or so, and discussed a lot of the issues raised in the thread, particularly with regards to escalation.

I think it’s important to remember that I don’t find him wearing lingerie in the bedroom ‘abhorrent’ - there are some strong words being used which don’t apply to me or my situation. I’ve always been happy to explore almost anything as part of sex. Maybe I’ll like it, maybe I won’t, or maybe, as in this case, I’ll be indifferent to it but willing to indulge it because I gain enjoyment from seeing his pleasure in it. He would be equally happy to indulge my fantasies providing they don’t disgust him.

My problem, and strong reaction, is due to the secrecy, and the possibility that this is something that he wants to do as part of everyday life. I appreciate that some of the posters have had to go through this, but I’m as sure as I can be that he doesn’t want to transition. Obviously I have no way of knowing his innermost thoughts on this, but we have talked and talked. He knows that I’m not able to handle him wearing lingerie every day.

He didn’t opt to move into the spare room - I kicked him out temporarily because he had a cold and was snoring and I don’t sleep well at the best of times. He is not a manipulative person. I honestly don’t think he has been sharing photos online.

You may think I’m being naive, but I think it’s really important to not jump to conclusions about where this is heading. He feels a lot of shame about this behaviour and he hasn’t felt able to indulge in it with me as much as he would want to because of that embarrassment. I don’t want to punish him for a sexual predilection that was probably stamped into his brain by a formative teenage experience and that he has no control over. And I don’t want to try to control his behaviour, because I think that making him deny an essential part of his personality isn’t going to pan out well for either of us, but I’m hoping that we can work through some of his shame by incorporating this more regularly as part of our sex life and hopefully normalising it for him a bit. It’s easy to be angry and hurt and blame him, but he is a really lovely person who has been by my side through tough times, and I need to give him the benefit of the doubt - for now!

I had a really strong visceral reaction to finding the underwear, the same reaction as when I found out an ex was cheating on me, but also the same reaction to the discovery of (another) ex’s use of cocaine. I think it’s a jealousy that they have a secret life that doesn’t involve me, a feeling of rejection, and a feeling that I’ve been a fool to trust them. We’ve talked about that, and how this isn’t a feeling I want to have again, and that now is the moment to let me know if he’s also doing crystal meth with male prostitutes while I’m doing the weekly shop. I’ve made it clear that I won’t stand for any more surprises.

I’m not personally attracted to feminine men, but what I find most interesting is - how come when they want to explore their feminine side it’s always by wearing lacy knickers, and never by cleaning the toilet, putting a wash on and hoovering the stairs.

@SStopRaisingHim

I'm sympathetic to him for being so dependent on his kink but also turning the spare room into his private wank dungeon is a step too far x

Also, LOLZ at the private wank dungeon - thank you for bringing some levity to an otherwise quite difficult couple of days.

I had a really strong visceral reaction to finding the underwear, the same reaction as when I found out an ex was cheating on me, but also the same reaction to the discovery of (another) ex’s use of cocaine.

You are having a reaction to being lied to (even if by omission) and your trust being broken. Remember that gut feeling because it's likely you'll be talked out of it.

I’m not personally attracted to feminine men, but what I find most interesting is - how come when they want to explore their feminine side it’s always by wearing lacy knickers, and never by cleaning the toilet, putting a wash on and hoovering the stairs.

Because autogynephiles get off on a patriarchal sissified version of femininity, not on the reality of being a woman.

My over whelming feeling reading this is.. Why is the op making all the compromises...
Why is she having to make this OK for him.
Plus how are you going to know he isn't wearing lingerie every day.. Are yih going to do a knicker check evety morning?
I couldnt become the underwear police...

@TinselAngel

I had a really strong visceral reaction to finding the underwear, the same reaction as when I found out an ex was cheating on me, but also the same reaction to the discovery of (another) ex’s use of cocaine.

You are having a reaction to being lied to (even if by omission) and your trust being broken. Remember that gut feeling because it's likely you'll be talked out of it.

I agree with this 110%

Why were the photos on the Computer? 99% would take photos with their phone. Who did he share these photos with? What online communities is he a regular member of?

I feel there is much much more to this than you think op. You asked him to sleep in the spare room and within hours he's shaved his pubic hair and is enjoying his multiple drawers of Nylon? Where is the respect for you?

From the Ops description, this man is clearly showing a very defined path of escalation. Add in the shame, the photos on the computer, the wanting to wear them all day long and him NOT wanting to keep this in the bedroom where he could share with the op.... it is very clear that this is only going to get worse. This is EXACTLY the typical pattern of behaviour on the trans widows threads.

Good Lord. Don't waste any more time on this marriage op, your husband doesn't put your needs as equal to his AT ALL. He wants to wall in his stockings and that's fine but you would be forgoing a relationship with honesty and integrity and even intimacy because this man won't be able to provide you with those things. He will always have a secret stash, always be sharing photos on line.

If the photos were on the computer OP, I would assume he's been sharing them with other people.

That would be a dealbreaker for most people I think, don't let yourself be told that just because a kink is involved, you should be more 'understanding' than you would be if he was sending dick pics to random women.

"what I find most interesting is - how come when they want to explore their feminine side it’s always by wearing lacy knickers, and never by cleaning the toilet, putting a wash on and hoovering the stairs."

It is interesting isn't it. I think its because that's one of the bits of being a woman that they think is a nice one, whereas all the shit jobs at home isn't. But as a woman personally I get nothing from wearing lacy knickers, Id rather be in plain soft cotton. Reminds me of that Atwood quote:

“Male fantasies, male fantasies, is everything run by male fantasies? Up on a pedestal or down on your knees, it's all a male fantasy: that you're strong enough to take what they dish out, or else too weak to do anything about it. Even pretending you aren't catering to male fantasies is a male fantasy: pretending you're unseen, pretending you have a life of your own, that you can wash your feet and comb your hair unconscious of the ever-present watcher peering through the keyhole, peering through the keyhole in your own head, if nowhere else. You are a woman with a man inside watching a woman. You are your own voyeur.”
― Margaret Atwood, The Robber Bride

You may think I’m being naive

Yup. And like you're trying to minimise this situation. And naive to think those pictures aren't ending up online! Or in someone's inbox.

And you really have two options, accept and welcome it or leave. The keeping it secret isn't working for you, and the not doing it wont work for him.