DH and women’s underwear

[Needanothername1234]

Feeling a bit sick and need someone to tell me if I’m being horrible.
My DH wears women’s knickers. I first found out when I discovered some close up photos of him wearing my underwear on his computer (which I occasionally used with his permission) This happened after we’d been together for about 2 years and had moved in together. He said that it was a little kink when he masturbated sometimes, no big deal, so I asked him not to because he’d ruin my underwear.

Subsequently I found some knickers in the house after I’d been away. I immediately assumed he was having an affair, so was relieved to discover that he’d bought himself more underwear so that he wouldn’t fuck mine up. We talked about it, and I told him I felt upset by his furtive behaviour, and did he want to wear them during sex? I thought that by incorporating them into our sex life it would make him feel less ashamed. So we did that occasionally, and he openly had a few pairs he would wear with me, and I thought that would be enough.

We are now married and have been together for 10 years. During that time we’ve been through some really hard experiences including infertility, and our sex life has dwindled to almost non-existence. This is partly due to my libido disappearing (perimenopause) but also because DH makes no attempt to have sex. I’ve told him many times that I want to have sex with him and be intimate, even if my lack of libido means that I rarely make the first move. He swears that he still fancies me, and when we do have sex he still seems to be keen.

Over the last week we’ve been sleeping separately (insomnia/snoring) and I noticed that he’d shaved all his pubic hair off. I jokingly said that he was using the spare room as an opportunity to live out his sexual fantasies without my oppressive presence, and he just laughed and said it was more comfortable in the hot weather. Anyway, I lost something a couple of days ago and asked if I could look through his drawers to see if it was mixed up with his stuff. I then found two drawers full of knickers, stockings, etc. When I asked him about it it became apparent that he has now replaced me with masturbation, and he wears this stuff all the time and regularly buys it. I feel sick. It feels like he’s cheating on me, but not even with another woman. I’ve been cast aside in favour of a load of nasty polyester. The secrecy makes me feel so sick.

We’ve talked about it a lot, and it seems as though he wants to wear it all the time. I have no problem with him wearing it in bed sometimes as a dirty sex thing, but am really repulsed by the idea of him shaving and wearing it day to day. I feel like a horrible intolerant person, but I don’t know if I can fancy him if he goes down this feminine route. It really turns me off.

I am getting hrt to try and deal with my libido, but it feels as though he’s already written off our sex life. He’s a wonderful kind man and we’ve been through so much and I love him dearly, but I’m really struggling with the way he’s just written me out of his sex life. It’s crazy that I feel jealous. How do I deal with this?

Why on earth..., Imasoulman? I think it's entirely reasonable to think there is more to this than just 'wearing women's knickers', plus the OP 'feels sick' and can't handle the possibility of this being part of everyday life. Looks like it kind of already is part of his daily life, and he has explicitly said he wants it to be.
This is not occasional behaviour, or behaviour reserved for part of sex with you, OP which you've said you would be okay with. It is secret, and escalating as others have outlined. I'm afraid my ex-husband did exactly this prior to telling me he believed he was a woman, shaving body hair, secretly buying women's underwear and setting up unusual private browsing softward on our shared family desktop which I found long after he'd moved out and rapidly transitioned.
Seems to me you will have to decide whether in fact you can tolerate this being everyday dressing - which it now is - or whether you need him to stop doing that, have sex with you, and just use it in ways you agree together. You will then have to accept that you are putting restrictions on this behaviour which he may breach, and work out whether you would accept that. And what is your red line in terms of any further escalation? Or are you sufficiently committed to staying with him and accommodating any further added behaviours? I think it's entirely reasonable for people to note this escalation, and warn you that this could further develop.
In view of that, that it's good in your position to have a think about your limits and boundaries and up to what point you would tolerate this. Looks like you will in fact need to tolerate this being 'part of everyday life' unless you decide to tell him he needs to stop. If you can expand your boundaries, you may need to going forward if you stay with him. I think the Transwidow thread posters have far more than 'some experience' with these issues and sadly we've seen this escalation many times.

But this isn't about him. It's all about you, what you want in your future, whether this is manageable, and what your limits (if any) are. Good luck.

Sorry you discovered this OP; it must be really upsetting particularly the secrecy and his shifted sexual interest. I think a lot of women would hate both those elements whatever the behaviour, and it drives a wedge between you. There is nothing wrong with ending a relationship on these grounds, or staying. I think you just need to be realistic about the fact that he is now doing this in a daily established way, and that yes, it might well escalate in what seems from other experiences to be a secretive and addictive way.

I've been there and have now been diagnosed with PTSD. It was 5 years ago I found out that my husband of 21 years had been dressing in my clothes (and our teen daughters) and pleasuring himself.
Firstly, I couldn't believe that he'd never told me, nor that I'd suspected (our sex life was crap but I'd never imagine THAT!).
The deceit and repulsion was too much for me. Some people can cope with it, but I married a man, not Dolly Parton.

@celery2021

I've been there and have now been diagnosed with PTSD. It was 5 years ago I found out that my husband of 21 years had been dressing in my clothes (and our teen daughters) and pleasuring himself. Firstly, I couldn't believe that he'd never told me, nor that I'd suspected (our sex life was crap but I'd never imagine THAT!). The deceit and repulsion was too much for me. Some people can cope with it, but I married a man, not Dolly Parton.

How horrific and incredibly abusive and disrespectful to you and to your daughters. I hope you all get the support you need.

@Theredjellybean

My over whelming feeling reading this is.. Why is the op making all the compromises... Why is she having to make this OK for him. Plus how are you going to know he isn't wearing lingerie every day.. Are yih going to do a knicker check evety morning? I couldnt become the underwear police...

It's not about me making all the compromises. He has made huge compromises for me in other areas of our marriage. This is about working together to try and restore our sex life - the demise of which may or may not have led to him thinking about doing this as part of everyday life in order to fulfil the need he has. I'm not going to fully explain here, but issues with illness, infertility and bereavement over the last few years, and now the menopause, have had a massive effect on our sex life. I am not going to throw the baby out with the bath water without at least trying to see whether we can work around this together.

As for becoming the underwear police - his jeans are pretty low, I am treated to the sight of his ragged old boxer shorts on a regular basis, and he undresses in front of me every night, so I've a pretty good idea that he isn't currently wearing knickers. Expressing a desire to do something and actually doing it are not the same. It may escalate further, or it may be a desire that is satisfied by being regularly included in an improved sex life.

At the time I discovered the photos (eight years ago) we shared his old desktop computer and neither of us had camera phones. We're not exactly tech-savvy, so always have old computers and phones. The pictures would have been taken with his digital camera at that time, so not as easy to upload and share as if you're using a camera phone. Like a lot of men he likes looking at grubby pictures sometimes. It doesn't follow that he is therefore sharing them with other people. That's a leap of imagination. I'm not ruling it out, but in the circumstances it was very unlikely.

A lot of posts have repeated an assertion that he is doing this every day. My original post said 'he does this all the time' by which I meant he currently does it all the time when he's masturbating, rather than he wears it all the time during the day. Sorry about my turn of phrase, as it obviously has given the impression that he's a hopeless case. He said that he would prefer to wear women's underwear every day if it was socially acceptable, not that he is actually doing that currently.

I have already told him what my limits are, and he has agreed to keep his knickers in the bedroom. I've known, and known of, other men who've liked to wear lingerie and none of them are now living as women. It isn't a foregone conclusion that this is the inevitable endpoint, even if it was for some of you.

Maybe I'm heading for more surprises and disappointment down the line, and I'll think back to this and wish I'd heeded your warnings, but honestly the ease with which MN urges people to leave their husbands never ceases to amaze me. Is their no room in anyone's marriage for human frailty, or teamwork, or acceptance of each other's weaknesses?

I know, and he knows, that this is really serious and that I can't accommodate an escalation in this behaviour, or any other situation coming to light that makes me feel this way again. Realistically I know that things may get worse, and at that point I will have to reassess our relationship given that he'll have broken my trust again knowing what the consequences of that will be. But until that happens I don't think it is unreasonable for us both to try and make an otherwise successful marriage work.

I'm really very sorry for everyone on here with direct experience of this, whose trust has been broken. It's a horrible feeling.

Is their no room in anyone's marriage for human frailty, or teamwork, or acceptance of each other's weaknesses?

Many trans widows including myself, spend years and years doing this until the continued lies and boundary pushing reach a point where we just cannot bear it any more and have to get out while we can with our mental health just about intact.

The difference between now and when I was in that situation though is that other women's stories are out there now, so you are able to make a more informed choice about what you are signing up for. Also women on MN are generally better informed than they were in the past so you will get fewer suggestions that you continue to compromise. It may seem hard line but it's based on reading the stories of women in similar circumstances.

Nobody needs to feel sorry for us. Those of us who got out and are living our own lives relatively drama free are certainly not to be pitied. We grieve the men we married but our lives are not destroyed.

I know, and he knows, that this is really serious and that I can't accommodate an escalation in this behaviour,

I think you've already agreed to an escalation- you've agreed to it being made into an accepted joint enterprise.

You talk a good talk but the fact is that your husband is in the spare room with all his fetish clothing, preferring to masturbate and photograph himself rather than have sex with you. I don't want to sound harsh but you say you don't want it to escalate - what do you think escalation is, exactly?

And FWIW unless LTB is said as a joke, eg when someone's husband has eaten the last biscuit, then it's only used seriously on here for cases of emotional, financial and physical abuse.

The women on here with experience are telling you things will get worse. You're saying they won't, but actually they are worse, but you're the frog in water that's coming up to the boil and you can't see it.

OP - I think there are two parallel issuers you are facing,
First - is your loss of libido but still wanting him to initiate, because ‘you’ want to enjoy intimacy. This bit is a little unfair as it’s hard to want to initiate knowing your partner doesn’t really want sex.

I hope you find a solution to that one. Have you had your hormones checked? For me, personally, estrogen gel did wonders for general well-being and libido.

Second is about his kink. You don’t mind him dressing up if it involves you both having sex. But you object to his solo play. What about if you had regular sex life you are OK with and he had his solo sessions as well. Dressed in anything he liked. Would you mind?
In your place - I’d try to separate your desire for intimacy/closeness that you express so clearly - from your fear of losing him that comes out in being controlling over what he does by himself. The former is totally ok and normal in a relationship. The latter is not that great, tbh.

Good luck

@HollowTalk

You talk a good talk but the fact is that your husband is in the spare room with all his fetish clothing, preferring to masturbate and photograph himself rather than have sex with you. I don't want to sound harsh but you say you don't want it to escalate - what do you think escalation is, exactly?

And FWIW unless LTB is said as a joke, eg when someone's husband has eaten the last biscuit, then it's only used seriously on here for cases of emotional, financial and physical abuse.

The women on here with experience are telling you things will get worse. You're saying they won't, but actually they are worse, but you're the frog in water that's coming up to the boil and you can't see it.

As I mentioned earlier, the fetish clothing has all gone in the bin, and the photographs were 8 years ago.

I fully appreciate that there are women on this thread telling me that it will get worse. But I also have enough lived experience of my own to know that not every man who gets off on wearing lingerie automatically goes on to more extreme behaviour..

Things are definitely worse now than they were 8 years ago. Which is why we’re taking steps to address the shared problems we have with our sex life. Partly that is my responsibility (HRT to address my libido) and partly his (initiating sex rather than going for the easy option of masturbating).
I don’t think this makes me a frog in boiling water. No one on mumsnet knows whether every man with this interest is going to end up dressing as a woman full time. They can only share their own experiences, and I’m grateful for these.

And fwiw, LTBs are thrown around all over MN for the tiniest of infractions, not just as jokes or for serious abuse.

I can assure everyone that I’m not turning a blind eye, or minimising. As I said previously I’ve made it very clear what I will tolerate.

@Josuk
I agree absolutely that it isn’t fair for me to expect him to always initiate when he knows I’m not as interested in sex as I used to be. I’m currently sorting out HRT to hopefully help with that.
I don’t think I have an issue with him masturbating if it’s alongside a mutual sex life, regardless of what he’s wearing. It’s the rejection of me in favour of masturbating that I can’t deal with. I’m not trying to control what he does, so much as let him know what is acceptable to me within our marriage and what isn’t. Obviously if he chooses to wear underwear as a regular thing I can’t stop that, but it will be at the expense of our relationship because that is a step too far for me.

@TinselAngel
‘I think you've already agreed to an escalation- you've agreed to it being made into an accepted joint enterprise.’

It already was a joint enterprise. I agreed on, in fact suggested, lingerie during sex 8 years ago. When we had a lot of sex.
The sex has dwindled for various reasons since then, but that doesn’t mean that his desires have, so I can see how his needs are not being met anymore.
There is no joint venture beyond this. I’m not agreeing to anything beyond lingerie as part of sex with me.

Maybe we’ll find that this is enough for him once the sex is more frequent. He says it will be. I prefer to find out rather than to assume that he’s a lost cause, but I do accept that your experiences have led you to a different conclusion. I am not rejecting what you’re saying but equally at this point I have to weigh up the conversations I’m having with him against the stories and experiences of people who have found themselves in similar, but not identical, circumstances.

I’m very grateful to hear your advice, and it has given me plenty to think about and discuss with DH, and I am absolutely not minimising what is happening. But there is a great deal of love and joy in my marriage and I am not at the point where I want to throw that away without knowing for sure that he is going to continue down this road to a point where I can’t accept it. I want to give him a chance to follow through on the things that we’ve discussed, and the assurances he’s given me.

Time will tell. I really do appreciate hearing from everyone. It’s helped me to crystallise my thoughts, and work out where my boundaries lie.

OP, I think you’re flipping great and I like to think I’d be the same.

He’s lucky to have such a supportive person in his life.

@SStopRaisingHim

OP, I think you’re flipping great and I like to think I’d be the same.

He’s lucky to have such a supportive person in his life.

^ This ^

Maybe we’ll find that this is enough for him once the sex is more frequent. He says it will be. I prefer to find out rather than to assume that he’s a lost cause, but I do accept that your experiences have led you to a different conclusion

It is not just my experience that has led me to a different conclusion. It is reading the experiences of many, many women who sought support from the trans widows threads and the women that have contributed to the website plus more wider reading. This enables us to identify commonalities. But I understand that you can't take our word for it.

I'd also gently point out that you're now in a situation where you're promising to have more sex (that you don't necessarily want), in order to keep your man on the straight and narrow. This at least, is a tale as old as time. You're even going to medicate yourself into it.

As I mentioned earlier, the fetish clothing has all gone in the bin,

And yet, despite all your protestations that you don't want this to be part of every day life, that it will be limited to 'the bedroom', and even though it does nothing for you at all you have somehow agreed to go shopping with him for more lingerie.

That will be an event that will not be a 'joint venture'. One of you will be kindly shopping for lingerie for their spouse and the other will be indulging in a full-on sexual experience.

@TinselAngel
‘ I’d also gently point out that you're now in a situation where you're promising to have more sex (that you don't necessarily want), in order to keep your man on the straight and narrow. This at least, is a tale as old as time. You're even going to medicate yourself into it.’

But that’s just the thing. I DO want to have sex with him. The loss of my libido has been absolutely heartbreaking for me. I miss having sex and feeling sexual. It feels as though part of my identity has gone and I hate it. Quite apart from all the other horrible perimenopause symptoms I’m trying to deal with. That’s why I’m getting medicated. It’s not for him. The fact that our marriage is currently at a crisis point, in part due to the lack of sex, would be reason enough, but it isn’t THE reason. The HRT thing was started before any of this came to light.

I’m not discounting the wealth of experience you have. But I personally know of at least three men who liked, maybe still like, wearing lingerie with their girlfriends. None of them is living as a woman. Your story is not the only story. Maybe my story will echo yours, but maybe it won’t . You can’t say for sure any more than I can.

Do people really divorce their DHs on the basis of an internet thread? Surely it should take more than that? Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences with me. I’m finding it helpful even if I’m not instantly LTB!

Do people really divorce their DHs on the basis of an internet thread?

I wouldn't have thought so. All we can do is warn you of likely outcomes.

@Haffiana
The agreement is that if (but let’s face it when) he wants to wear underwear again that we’ll choose it together. I didn’t accidentally agree to this. I have zero problem with shopping with him for underwear that’s going to be enjoyed as part of our sex life together. Any more than he would have an issue with buying a vibrator for me.

My issues are:
1: Him using lingerie and masturbation as a replacement for me, as he has been doing

2: Him potentially dressing as a woman/ wearing lingerie in everyday life. He isn’t doing this, and says he has no wish to, other than the knickers.

I can handle a mildly titillating shopping trip. Maybe I’ll get myself something too.

It clearly makes you uncomfortable OP. you don't have to put up with it, so don't. His needs to wear women's knickers should not come before your need to be happy...but it would appear the has already made his choice.

Have you heard of the binge/purge cycle? Turning over a new leaf and throwing out all of the fetish wear is typical of a purge.

This is all about his wants and how you will manage it; you haven't figured much at all. Decide where your boundaries are now and make them clear; you've given him permission to do certain things, but the fact is people become bored with doing the same thing the same way.

Also think about what you will do if it turns out the HRT doesn't solve your low libido. You might have to look into other causes.

It's interesting, isn't it, how many women were piling onto the thread about a teenager being faced with shoppers' husbands when she was trying to buy a bra in private. Those women were mocking the fact that the men (aka their husbands) would be taking any notice in that situation. Now here's a guy who wants to go lingerie shopping for himself with his wife - and his wife's happy to go along with that.

OP, what would you think of your husband in women's private spaces, such as lingerie changing rooms?

He’s not into young girls and their bras. Nor is he into loitering outside women’s changing areas. But if he was, for instance, waiting outside when I was trying something on, he would be reading news stories on his phone, rather than doing anything to upset or embarrass young women.

I know what my boundaries are. I’ve left my husband in no doubt as to what my boundaries are. They might not be the same boundaries that other posters on here have, but I know what is ok for me and what isn’t. We’ve agreed some tactics on how to approach this, tactics that I am comfortable with. I don’t know what the future holds for us, and nor does anyone else on here.

I'm with the op on this.
I think I may have mentioned this before.
I had a relationship with a man who enjoyed wearing lingerie, not just knickers but all sorts of things.
I was never really committed to him we were really just fwb.
He always wore knickers on a daily basis, I'm still in touch with him and he is still a man !
There was never a hint of exhibitionism infact he was always asking me to check that nothing was showing.
He would never dream of going into a changing room.
He was and still is a very heterosexual man who happens to like pretty sensual underwear.
If the OP can make this work then I say good luck.

My ex did the same . Boundaries were constantly pushed as the dressing up escalated. Relentless , my feelings mattered not a jot . Be careful .

@catsareme14

My ex did the same . Boundaries were constantly pushed as the dressing up escalated. Relentless , my feelings mattered not a jot . Be careful .

Mine too.

OP, did he tell you where he shared the pictures?