Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

I do wonder sometimes if any relationship is ever this difficult and actually manages to get back through to good times, to make all of this anguish worth it?!

OP I'm not sure what you mean you're getting back to?

From how you've described things, he's never actually been a very good or supportive husband?

You say: We don't have the same sense of humour or interests and actually in the past (even before the affair) I've really struggled to think of things to talk to him about when we're out on a date or whatever (especially if he's not reciprocating my chat efforts!). I wouldn't turn to him if I was sad or upset and even if I did I don't think he'd know how to comfort me.

Ignoring his abusive behaviour, that's not the basis for a great marriage. And then throw in the rest - you're basically asking, above, can you create (new) a good relationship from a situation where, not only are two people incompatible (your description), but one of them behaves abusively to the other one, to the extent that it's driven that person to an EA. Can you newly create a good and healthy relationship on top of that, when one did not exist before? That's your question, really, I'm afraid.

You desperately need to take some space for yourself here to have a long good think, away from this awful cycle which you've (very insightfully) identified as preventing you from properly reflecting. That's an excellent "need" for you to have, and raise in your next counselling session.

Oh, it was awful sad we didn't even get into the details as I think she didn't feel qualified to give advice (she's never been in a relationship) so wasn't very forthcoming with the conversation. I was a bit disappointed actually as I asked if she'd ever noticed his treatment of me and she said that she thought it was just 'his way'
Well that's good actually. Because it means she did notice and tried to explain it away. Did he talk to her on their walk? Maybe she is parroting back something he suggested to her. It might not even have been in relation to you. He might have said something like "people often comment I can be rude, I don't mean to, its just my way".

If she's never been in a relationship she might be having all sorts of complicated reactions to you not being happy.

In my experience siblings have been the hardest to talk to about this stuff. 1) because they had the same upbringing that primed me to accept abusive behaviours so question if it is damaging 2) because they are used to the "child" dynamic and questioning you based on patterns from childhood that they haven't fully understood 3) because they have their own long standing relationship with this person and what you are telling them causes them to have to reevaluate it which can be hard for them.

I think if you give her time to think about it and then talk to her again she might react more supportively?

Is it counselling tonight?

Ah, I'm sorry your sister couldn't help. I guess if she has never been in a relationship, she doesn't really understand. I made all kinds of assumptions about her being a mature adult.

Your parents, on the other hand...!!!

Your friends?

I just think someone in real life, who knows your husband, will be able to help you untangle things.

@Whatdirection I've been the friend in this situation and also been you! I think when you're the one with long ongoing issues they can feel so overwhelming/like there's always something new to deal with (e.g. your birthday) that you may not realise how much you're focusing on your troubles when you're talking with friends. I'm actually like that at the moment but trying to be self aware now and make sure to balance out with listening, light hearted chat etc.

On the other hand your friend might be thinking "I was really there for WhatDirection a lot last year and since and I actually may need a break because every time I speak to her I know I'm in for an hour or two or her venting her sadness at me and right now I'm overwhelmed with work/my own family problems/illness etc etc." I saw a friend recently and was actually somewhat dreading it because I've been on the receiving end of outpourings EVERY time we've spoken in the last few years. In the end it was lovely! Maybe with your friend, firstly check in on her properly, like you mean it. Ask after specific aspects of her life that sometimes cause stress. And then make time for a lighthearted chat or text session about something silly. Try to reset the balance of your relationship.

@helplesshopeless hello I've namechanged (thermal) and just wanted to pick up on this: "often recently my husband has told me I've been uncaring as a result of me trying to detach myself from the responsibility of his emotions and his reaction to them. Which makes me think I've got the balance wrong!"

Anyone who's been used to things being handed to them feel hard done by when they're taken away. You have a toddler so you must know! Some children end up spoilt when they leave home because they think someone else is there to cook/clean/wash/think for them and waaaaaah it's gone. The Royal Family would probably think their staff were "uncaring" if they stopped squeezing out their toothpaste out for them. That doesn't mean that's something they need or are entitled to! Same with your husband. Imagine how he'll feel when you actually get wise to all of his shit and leave him completely alone to manage his own feelings. He thinks he's entitled to your unwavering service, affection, emotional support etc. He's forgotten it's your choice whether to give those things or not.

In terms of the wider situation, you sound like a woman who's decided that the only safe and comfortable place for the tide to be is halfway up the beach. So when the tide comes in you're frantically building walls and throwing water out to sea, and when it goes out you're trying to throw it further up the beach. It sounds absolutely exhausting, and you're not going to be able to relax until you've admitted to yourself you need to move to another beach altogether, or ideally just go and have a lovely steady bath!

@helplesshopeless this issue of not allowing you time to even think...and pressuring you to "move towards him" on his timescale...it's wrong and unfair and...deliberate (consciously or otherwise).

Last week I managed to get a whole 24 hours to myself, no one else to think about or do anything for, and even that small amount of time away allowed me to start to reflect properly on what I want and need from my relationship with DH...and I came back feeling much more settled about what I was prepared to work for, and why (ie that I do still like DH and want to see if we can work things out) and what I wasn't going to put up with (ie if he gets nasty one more time he is out of the door, no more compromises). I have even managed to say to him that whilst we are trying to work things out he is not to ask for sex, on the basis that he has been behaving badly for years and our problems are not going to be sorted out in five minutes so that I suddenly feel like jumping back into bed with him - at the moment I can't imagine wanting to, but that might change IF (and only IF) he doesn't continue to make me detach by subjecting me or DS to his horrible temper. But we'll see...I'm making no promises now and nor should you .

Honestly, that day and night away has made such a difference in my head...do you think you could even get a day to yourself, even if you had to "go to work" but actually spend the day out somewhere and treat yourself to lunch and a book and some time to just...be?

Just quickly, as working, to the point about your husband calling you ‘uncaring’ as you try to detach from responding to his every emotional need. In addition to what FoxgloveSummers says (great name by the way), my first thought when I read that was that really it is a form of emotional manipulation because he is ascribing a negative character trait to you so that your instinctive reaction is to think no, I am not, and DO MORE for him to prove this. Because he knows from experience that being caring is an attribute that matters to you.

So just as you can say no to his persuasive and convincing arguments that he needs something, you can say no to his characterisation of you as uncaring (just another way to get something from you).

You come across on here as very kind and caring, which is really why he got away with so much previously.

Unfriendly was the word my ex used for me when I was not centring what he wanted.

I will come back later on the wheel of emotions.

@Alcemeg hope you don't mind, I've put your emotion wheel on another thread where the lady is struggling.

[quote Grrrpredictivetex]@Alcemeg hope you don't mind, I've put your emotion wheel on another thread where the lady is struggling. [/quote]
Of course I don't mind! I wasn't sure if anyone else would like it or find it helpful.

Apart from the fact that it's pretty 😋 I really enjoy seeing some of the links made between emotions I might not otherwise have thought to connect. The more I think about it, the more I understand why they're linked. For example, I wouldn't have thought to consider loathing as the most intense form of boredom, but then I just consider jobs I've had in the past, or dull films I've endured... 😁

Also, if we seek better control of our own emotions, then being aware of the more diluted/concentrated versions in the same emotional "family" gives us something to aim for, depending on how desirable we find the state.

Last but not least, I like the way it helps me to unpack how I feel -- like OP being able to identify a sense of submission, as a mix of acceptance and apprehension. I think being able to put our finger precisely on how we are feeling is a good start when trying to unravel what to do about it.

Finding the wheel very interesting. I agree Alcemeg if you can put your finger and name the emotion, it can really help.

Just wondering where the feeling of ‘loneliness’ might fit in?

@Whatdirection good question! Where would you put it? I'd say somewhere between sadness and disgust...?

i do find if someone has been through similar experiences to you then they are more likely to ‘get it’ - two friends of mine who have been great have also had their fair share of break ups to navigate.

So true - I've fully explained everything to three close friends now and I can really see how their views are driven by their own experiences (all very supportive, just with different insights!). Also, @Whatdirection, please do use this thread as your sounding board whenever you need it 

You desperately need to take some space for yourself here to have a long good think, away from this awful cycle which you've (very insightfully) identified as preventing you from properly reflecting. That's an excellent "need" for you to have, and raise in your next counselling session.

I really do, and have no idea how to get it. Last night, after a really stressful day with my daughter (who is very skilled at pushing boundaries at the moment ) I said to my husband that I was going to go sit on a bench down the road and listen to some music once she was asleep. I thought that would be somewhere safe to go as he would know I was close by and not doing anything dodgy. This caused a huge issue for him though, because he was a) worried I'd be calling the OM and b) was worried it meant I needed space from him and that I was going backwards in finding any connection with him. It was hugely stifling to be honest. I know it's my own fault for having the affair, but there's nowhere I can go now without being hounded and quizzed and it makes it not even worth going out.

We've had a tough day today as well and I said I need some mental space if I was ever going to move forward, and we couldn't think of anything I could do or anywhere I could go that would give me peace and quiet and that he'd actually be able to manage without panicking that I was up to no good!

@Peach1886 it sounds like you've found some really good clarity around your boundaries and next steps! How is your husband responding to the points about his behaviour, is he seeking help or is he just going to make attempts to be better?! Honestly a day out and about by myself sounds amazing, but there's no way I could have it for the reasons mentioned above.

@Alcemeg ah, my sister is a mature adult, just very shy and unlucky in love! I really don't think she's the right person to be talking to about this, on reflection (and after that disastrous attempt!). It's made me even more reluctant to try my mum because we just don't talk about things like this. I will stick to my friends I think :)

@QuentinBunbury they did go on a walk but he definitely didn't say anything. She's the loveliest lady, but a bit 'daft' in the sense that she doesn't really pick up on nuances or anything like that. Needs every aspect of a film plot explaining to her, etc. Therapy is on Thursday, will be interested to see what happens as we're still kind of stuck in the same cycle I've already described.

@FoxgloveSummers your beach analogy was is absolutely accurate!!! How do I break the cycle?! I just don't think I'm strong enough to actually make the leap

So just as you can say no to his persuasive and convincing arguments that he needs something, you can say no to his characterisation of you as uncaring (just another way to get something from you).

Yes, I agree. I do try to defend myself but of course his answer is to point towards my affair as the prime example of how uncaring I am towards him. We are just going round and round in circles and it always comes back to me not bothering to try and fix the marriage, ditching him, and deciding to put my need for 'cheap thrills' ahead of our family.

@Alcemeg @Whatdirection I think I'd put loneliness somewhere between sadness, pensiveness and boredom, if we can go diagonally

[quote helplesshopeless]**@Alcemeg* @Whatdirection* I think I'd put loneliness somewhere between sadness, pensiveness and boredom, if we can go diagonally [/quote]
Haha!!! Apart from Bastard Bingo we can invent Emotional Noughts and Crosses 🤣

@helplesshopeless
We are just going round and round in circles and it always comes back to me not bothering to try and fix the marriage, ditching him, and deciding to put my need for 'cheap thrills' ahead of our family.
I can't help thinking he is projecting onto you the kind of affair he might be tempted to have himself one day. I don't think he can actually get his head round what you were attracted by, and it certainly wasn't "cheap thrills" -- quite the opposite.

Sorry to be blunt (again) but it's no wonder he's not convinced that you want to save the marriage etc when you're really becoming more and more aware of what the marriage has done to you and all the things you find so painful about it.

What you said about not being able to go down the road to a bloody bench really puts the tin lid on it doesn't it, and as you rightly identify he's so completely paranoid that you being anywhere out of his sight or unchaperoned by your daughter is a threat that neither of you want to impose on him. But the key thing (with this, and with the frantic tide-moderation) YOU CANNOT KEEP THIS UP. No one can try to maintain a seesawing relationship, care for a toddler, work and never have a moment alone - it's going to wear you out, utterly.

I do wonder if part of his paranoia (the tiny bit that wasn't there from the start with his worry about boys at parties) is due to the fact that he can see something new in you? Like he knows you have another part of your brain that he's not part of - which is not the OM as he thinks, but is you considering your options and speaking to your counsellor and even posting on here. He knows Something Is Afoot he's just very wrong about what it is.

This situation just sounds more and more awful for you (and to an extent for him but he's been a big twat so I don't care about that). He's yelling "care for me! commit to me! stop minding how I behave! abase yourself in apology! don't go out of my sight! love me! fuck me! stay with me forever!", and you are having to pretend to give house room to this while actually wanting nothing more than to run out of the door with your daughter under one arm and a suitcase under the other, at least for the duration of a good solid think.

@helplesshopeless I have read both your threads and the one thing you keep repeating is that you are at fault for having an affair. Please do reframe this in your own mind - you were driven to desire what this other man offered/represented because of the appalling treatment you were receiving from your husband. Please stop accepting all the blame for taking this happening.

I never normally comment on threads like this as I have no experience or wise words to offer but felt so compelled by yours for some reason - you sound so 'programmed' in your replies. Your daughter will be picking up on your feelings and learning from yours and her fathers behaviour even if she can't analyse it yet. She won't 'suffer' for not having two parents in her life 24/7 especially if one is the controlling bully that you describe.

I said to my husband that I was going to go sit on a bench down the road and listen to some music once she was asleep. I thought that would be somewhere safe to go as he would know I was close by and not doing anything dodgy. This caused a huge issue for him though, because he was a) worried I'd be calling the OM
If he is serious about wanting to stay together he has to do some work too and part of that is making a conscious effort to trust you.
It's not going to help build a connection if you get no space and have to justify wanting time alone.
Equally he needs to learn to live with his fears - constantly seeking reassurance and controlling your movements is bad for both of you.
If he really can't trust you to sit on a bench alone then it is over because that's such a destructive dynamic

You can still go to the beach though, he doesn't have to like it. You are allowed to say he is smothering you, & actually pushing you further away by his mistrust & constant bullying. The slightest rebuff & he makes accusations & threats.
The affair was the net result of his vile treatment of you for years. not you throwing yourself at anyone,
Honestly His is the greater sin. but you don't seem to realise it because he is an expert snake used to twisting words & making you feel inadequate.
He is not your boss, He is not better than you. Please go to the beach, or sit in your car at the supermarket, or walk round the block, or whatever you need, he knows that you getting out of his grasp & some freedom to breath & think clearly is going to permit clarity, which is why he so desperately fights against it.

Yes @Mix56 thanks for explicitly saying that. When the OP says "Honestly a day out and about by myself sounds amazing, but there's no way I could have it for the reasons mentioned above"... I want to ask - what would he do if you went? call the police? the wife police? shout and scare you? or be a whingey baby?

But the chilling part is - whatever it is he'd do, he's got her convinced that it's so terrible that she "can't" have a day out for fear of it.

@FoxgloveSummers you're right, when you put it like that it does sound awful!! I think I am so used to being resilient under his pressures, unpleasantness, whatever, that that habit is helping me keep going at the moment. I'm almost resorting to my usual coping mechanism of burying my head in the sand (in keeping with the beach analogy!) and ploughing on, but this is one scenario that isn't going away and I'm going to have to face it sooner or later.

In terms of what he'd do if I went, it would be a constant barrage of messages, checking whether I'm online on Facebook/WhatsApp, calling to see if I'm on the phone, and then the actual build up to and fall out after the event would probably be a huge amount of anxiety from him, which may or may not manifest itself in some harsh words, arsey comments, and so on. It's just completely counterproductive to my desperate need to maintain a calm equilibrium at the moment. But yes, you're right @Mix56, I can still go!!

If he really can't trust you to sit on a bench alone then it is over because that's such a destructive dynamic

Completely agree. It sounds absurd from an outsiders perspective. When we were discussing it he said he hated me for making him into someone who wasn't able to cope with that scenario and give me what I needed. Not sure where the cut off is for accepting my part in that vs saying actually, you need to manage your own responses in these circumstances so that they are more proportionate and reasonable.

@blobby10 thanks for your comment! I see what you mean about me sounding programmed in my replies. I think I get more sucked into it the more he talks to me, and then when we have a few days of relative calm I'm able to stand back a bit and have a better perspective, which then possibly leads to him sensing that I am withdrawing, which then brings about more discussions with him. A vicious cycle!

@Alcemeg love the idea of emotional noughts and crosses! Or snakes and ladders, which may be more appropriate

he said he hated me for making him into someone who wasn't able to cope with that scenario and give me what I needed

and equally you might "hate" him for making you into someone who couldn't cope with the dynamic in the marriage and sought nurture in an affair . And now can't give him what he needs .

Ah I see so you play along a while so he’ll calm down and SHUT UP, so you can have some quiet to think. But when you have time to think you start to strengthen your resolve and be more assertive. So he ramps it up again in order to drown out your thoughts and force you to think about number one ie him. And then repeat.

It’s not going to stop you know because it’s working (for him, he’s the one driving this).

I’m sure you’re right that your habits are keeping you going. The real problem is, keeping you going is keeping you stuck.

The only way to actually break that cycle is to just go out as if for the day and then call saying “I need some time to think, I’ve already with daughter over at my mum’s and we’re staying here for the night. Don’t panic we’ll be back soon. And before you start no obviously I’m not with the OM say hi mum” and then hang up and leave your phone in a cupboard for 24 hours.

Gosh OP, this is pretty dreadful

In terms of what he'd do if I went, it would be a constant barrage of messages, checking whether I'm online on Facebook/WhatsApp, calling to see if I'm on the phone don't take your phone
and then the actual build up to just tell him you're going and walk out and fall out after the event would probably be a huge amount of anxiety from him, which may or may not manifest itself in some harsh words, arsey comments, and so on. So he hasn't changed much, has he?

Seriously, this is supposed to be the greatly changed man, who's read all the books, and is now so totally in touch with his emotions that you should forget all his past angry behaviour because it won't happen again? But he won't "let" you go and sit on your own on a park bloody bench?

It's just completely counterproductive to my desperate need to maintain a calm equilibrium at the moment. I know but as PP said, this is totally unsustainable. I think you need to dare yourself to disrupt the equilibrium and take the time you need for yourself, and let him deal with it

I am also yelling "what, you can't even go and sit on a bench on your own?"...that really is craziness and control beyond all reason...

I can't say my DH was hugely enthusiastic about my having some time away, especially when he realised I was going to stay overnight (that was partly necessary to stop me thinking I had to cut my day short and scurry home to look after everyone!), but he accepted that I needed to do it. And when I got home and he could see how rested I looked, he was genuinely pleased with the outcome I think.

And no of course he doesn't like being told that he's got to wait until I feel better about things, and until things are better between us, before he has even the slightest chance of more than a cuddle...but I think it has made him take me more seriously. And just as importantly it's taken away a potential flashpoint between us, where I get irritated at being "pestered" (however lightly) and he doesn't feel like he's constantly being rejected. And he is trying really hard with his moods...so I am really glad I was straight with him about how destructive they were, it's taken some very direct and scary words being said, several times, but it finally seems to be sinking in.

This is the difference between our DH's - mine is finally allowing me the space (even if he doesn't like it) and us the time to re-build what was once a good relationship (even if bits of it could be healthier, I'm working on those). But your DH's response is to try and pin you down harder and harder, and you will break if he carries on...what is he going to do, keep you within sight for the rest of your lives?

He really has a lot of work to do - I'm sure some of him is genuinely anxious but the rest of it seems just to be about control...and I don't know how to help you find the strength to stand up to him.

For now, every night once DD is in bed, take yourself off to the bathroom with your favourite book, run a lovely hot bath and put some music on. Tell him first that HE is responsible for DD and that he will NOT be coming into the bathroom for any discussions about anything, or to use the loo. Get him out of your space, and your head, for an hour at least...you poor, poor girl