Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

“he said he hated me for making him into someone who wasn't able to cope with that scenario”

Do you ever remind him that he’s been jealous and controlling since you were dating? You haven’t made him into it, he was like that when you found him. So you’re right it’s entirely his responsibility.

Ooh, I don't think I was clear actually - I did go and sit on the bench! Hurray! But it did cause huge issues (partly why we've had a tough day today) and I was quizzed on my WhatsApp and Facebook use whilst there and after. So if I did have a longer period outside the house, like a full day out (night would be unthinkable!) it would be even worse. I enjoyed that 15 mins quiet time though 

I think you need to dare yourself to disrupt the equilibrium and take the time you need for yourself, and let him deal with it

I'm not sure I'm brave enough!!! I'm so used to not wanting to do anything (apart from the affair ) to upset the calm, and as soon as I do I'm desperately trying to claw it back.

@Peach1886 it sounds like you've handled the situation with your DH perfectly. I wish I'd done all of that before I had the affair; actually had the guts to tackle the issues and have the difficult conversations. But, I was already at the point that I didn't much like or love him I suppose, so there wasn't much to salvage...

@FoxgloveSummers

“he said he hated me for making him into someone who wasn't able to cope with that scenario”

Do you ever remind him that he’s been jealous and controlling since you were dating? You haven’t made him into it, he was like that when you found him. So you’re right it’s entirely his responsibility.

Hmm, yes, he would say not to this extent though, as I think even he can see how unreasonable he's being now.

(And my app is finally letting me quote! 😎)

He really is a piece of work isn't he. "Oh sure I was paranoid and jealous and controlling when we met and I stopped you going to a perfectly normal party with friends. But now I'm acting like a fucking maniac about you sitting on a bench which we can both agree is utterly beyond the pale - but that's ok because it's your fault." The magic "not my fault" fairy has waved its wand over him again.

Honestly OP the longer this goes on the more ASTONISHED I am you ever had this affair. You won't go away to see your own mother overnight without permission but you somehow managed to carry on a secret correspondence and even meet up and get physical with another man. How???

So helpless, when I was in your husbands position, I agreed to my DP moving out, a whole 10 miles away, for several months and sucked it up. I knew we had to reset and restart from what had happened. I felt pretty rough some days but it worked. (I will add we've now been together 22 years, but if I'd pushed the way your "DH" is, I don't think we would have got it sorted.) Ok no children involved so less complex.....but..... if he can't be happy unless he's sitting on your shoulder like some bloody enormous Jiminy Cricket how on earth are you ever going to feel likes he trusts you again? This would be killing me, if I were in your shoes. What's the point if he's never going to let you breathe again.

@FoxgloveSummers

Honestly OP the longer this goes on the more ASTONISHED I am you ever had this affair. You won't go away to see your own mother overnight without permission but you somehow managed to carry on a secret correspondence and even meet up and get physical with another man. How???

I had the exact same thought!

What drove you that time OP? Can you dig into the same resource you clearly have inside you, to be a bit brave again and start living for yourself?

I wish I'd done all of that before I had the affair; actually had the guts to tackle the issues and have the difficult conversations. But, I was already at the point that I didn't much like or love him I suppose, so there wasn't much to salvage...

This really confuses me. It sounds as though you made up your mind long ago that you'd had enough, but now you're stuck in some kind of whirlpool of guilt and defensiveness that prevents you from moving forward.

Everyone deserves the honest truth. Are you completely candid with your husband re: not actually liking or respecting him?
If you are, it just doesn't make any sense that he insists on you staying with him.
If you're not telling him the whole truth, why not? Is it to do with safeguarding your ?

If the latter, then maybe you need to become less sensitive to accusations like "cheap thrills" and be like Sandy in Grease where she turns up at the end in greaser leathers instead of twinset and pearls.

First of all massive well done for going and sitting on the bench.

I totally get your desire for calm, your frantic scramble to try and restore some sort of equilibrium, your fear of repercussions, your paralysis due to not wanting to ‘rock the boat’

But deep down in your soul you know this is no way to live.

A prisoner would have more space to think and breathe.

My STBXH would insist on us having these awful circular conversations where l would quite frankly feel trapped in the room with him because l felt l had to engage. I would lose my shit and end up howling with despair (but still l felt l had to stay)

I read up about boundaries and was amazed to read that no one should make you stay in the room to have a conversation with you.

In our very last dreadful row, l said l needed some timeout and went to leave the room.

My H said ‘ Don’t leave the room while we are discussing this’

I said back for the first time ‘I am allowed to leave the room if l want to’

Interestingly he just crumbled and completely backed down.

I wonder if you just said a simple version of this including turning off your phone until you return, how that would turn out?

I realise that this is no long term solution but in order to carve yourself some more thinking time, do you feel you could say this?

he said he hated me for making him into someone who wasn't able to cope with that scenario and give me what I needed
Er what? He hates you? That's pretty strong language
Also how exactly are you "making him" not able to cope? You aren't doing anything wrong! You are being totally honest. He needs to grow up and take some responsibility for his actions here. Its not going to kill him to let you out of his sight for an hour or so. He needs to learn to do that for you to have a healthy relationship.

Maybe you should discuss it together with the counsellor - what to do so that you can get the space you need. You've been clear about wanting that since you started these threads and it's a very tangible thing for a facilitated conversation with a counsellor

My flippant comment on the tide moderation is that you need to channel your inner Katara (Avatar: the Last Airbender series).

Katara

My serious comment is that this is coercive control you are describing and his argument that you are making him do it/made him do it is no different than a man who beats up his wife and argues provocation in court.

"bloody enormous Jiminy Cricket" - sorry but that gave me a laugh, what an image

You are of course right @KatySun

I feel like maybe OP's real problem is that when he starts to stir things up or suggest (he'd think: threaten) splitting up - she just panics and wants it all to go away. What she needs to do is calmly turn round to him next time and say "you know what Derek, that's a brilliant idea."

I said I need some mental space if I was ever going to move forward, and we couldn't think of anything I could do or anywhere I could go that would give me peace and quiet and that he'd actually be able to manage without panicking that I was up to no good!

So the fuck WHAT if he panics? That's his problem!!

It's hard to see that he's a changed man, behaving 'respectfully' now, working hard and no longer a bully I mean that's just nonsense!

Glad you went to sit on your bench, but even that 15 measly minutes meant the Spanish Inquisition.

He is a controlling git.
He is a bully.
He always was.
You don't love him.
His current behaviour is not actually making you love him.
He hates you because it's your fault he's such a terrible person. Ffs!!!

I wish you courage to do what you need to do to live a life of freedom

@FoxgloveSummers
This situation just sounds more and more awful for you (and to an extent for him but he's been a big twat so I don't care about that). He's yelling "care for me! commit to me! stop minding how I behave! abase yourself in apology! don't go out of my sight! love me! fuck me! stay with me forever!", and you are having to pretend to give house room to this while actually wanting nothing more than to run out of the door with your daughter under one arm and a suitcase under the other, at least for the duration of a good solid think.

Very good point. Dear OP you are so lovely. I see you like a princess locked away in a tall tower and I wish I can come and rescue you. Please understand that while it may look like your husband is trying, he is doing anything but that. He has you imprisoned in every possible way and controls you absolutely. While he appears to be fixing his own imperfections he keeps pointing out yours every time he gets to keep you inline.

@Whatdirection
I read up about boundaries and was amazed to read that no one should make you stay in the room to have a conversation with you.

Yes, boundaries!! I wonder how come I first learned about boundaries at the age of 50 talking to my therapist. This is something kids should be thought in schools. Boundaries is what helped me get perspective at my marriage and realize that I was not happy and want out. Plain and simple. When I stopped doing what I was told, what I was expected to do. When I started listening to my own inner voice not my husband’s when thinking and feeling and doing things. Boundaries thought me that I can say want, do what I want, go where I want, that I am my own person, not his or anybody else’s. That I can have free will, and it is not rude or mean or selfish.

OP, you are FREE to do what you want. I think that someone in your first thread once posted Human Rights link, I was trying to find but could not right now. You have right to do what you want, live how you want, be your own person. Your husband does not own you, not your feelings, not your thoughts and not your body. He has to understand this and most importantly YOU have to understand this. I can see that you think you both have to change your behaviours in order for the marriage to work. Yes, you do, but what is most important in a marriage is freedom, freedom to be yourself, and what is happening with you is opposite. Like some of the PPs said, what is happening with you right now is not sustainable, it cannot work, it will never work. No one can live like this. If your husband wants you to love him, he has to set you free, he has to leave you be, he has to give you space. Most importantly you have to allow yourself all this first.

Sorry I went a bit overboard. Felt inspired.
Wish you well my dear. You deserve so much more than what your husband can give you. So much more.

Was it this one?
www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/communication-success/201406/how-spot-and-stop-manipulators

The document my psychologist gave me also said there is a human right to privacy - its up to you what information you share about yourself and with who. Very useful.

She shared this with me too which I've found very useful. Definitely suffer from porous boundaries
www.therapistaid.com/therapy-worksheet/boundaries-psychoeducation-printout

[quote QuentinBunbury]Was it this one?
www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/communication-success/201406/how-spot-and-stop-manipulators[/quote]
Yes that is it. Thank you

Honestly OP the longer this goes on the more ASTONISHED I am you ever had this affair. You won't go away to see your own mother overnight without permission but you somehow managed to carry on a secret correspondence and even meet up and get physical with another man. How???

Erm...with great difficulty 😬 however, I wouldn't normally have an issue with going to stay with my parents or friends (now that my daughter is ok with my husband doing bedtime which is only recent), it's just at the moment with the stress that it brings post-affair and my need to keep the calm.

What drove you that time OP? Can you dig into the same resource you clearly have inside you, to be a bit brave again and start living for yourself

I guess it was the OM that drove me! But yes, I am starting to feel a bit of resolve build up around getting some space. I'm going to stay at a friend's the weekend after next and then maybe the following weekend to another friend. My husband knows these people so I think they're 'safe' for me to see. It won't be without suspicion from him though.

if he can't be happy unless he's sitting on your shoulder like some bloody enormous Jiminy Cricket how on earth are you ever going to feel likes he trusts you again?

Jiminy cricket - Ha!!!  I suppose he says the same from the other side...I destroyed his trust and at the moment I'm unable to give him the love he needs to rebuild that, so how is he ever meant to trust me again?

This really confuses me. It sounds as though you made up your mind long ago that you'd had enough, but now you're stuck in some kind of whirlpool of guilt and defensiveness that prevents you from moving forward

I think it's only now looking back that I have some clarity on where I was. I knew I felt stuck and trapped and unhappy, but probably it hadn't even occurred to me that I didn't love him. I had just kind of accepted the situation as it was and was trying to make the most of it with my daughter. In terms of the guilt now, my difficulty is around the fact that he's working on removing a lot of the bad behaviours he used to have (which I disliked) and just leave the good behaviours (which I must have liked at some point) - so I feel like I need to try and feel something again.

@Whatdirection the conversations with your husband sound a lot like mine! I feel completely cornered and hate it, if I leave the room he follows me. The other day he cornered me in the bathroom and talked at me while I was in the shower and I felt so uncomfortable. It's what pushed me over to claim my bench time actually. Re your suggestion of me leaving my phone off, he'd probably be up for that if I left it behind, as he'd know I wasn't contacting anyone then. Worth a shot!

@QuentinBunbury you're right, we should discuss it with the counsellor. It just makes me nervous because it's likely to unsettle him which will do more harm than good.

@KatySun yes, I am starting to see it as coercive control now, even though it's not intentional for the most part. I think I struggle to see that when he's clearly reacting to distress as a result of the affair - that trips me up constantly in excusing his behaviour and I still don't know where to draw the line.

@loveyourself2020 thank you for your lovely message!! I re-read the human rights piece that @QuentinBunbury posted and a lot of it resonated with me. My husband has read lots of articles about getting over affairs and they say things about the guilty party has to accept they have no freedom or privacy until the 'victim' feels like they can trust them again. So I've had that in mind, and want to try to be open to what he needs to try and process everything (given I can't give him love which is what he most needs), but I think it is tipping over to unreasonable control now.

I think the key problem with all of this situation is that I am not ready/able to let go of this marriage until I know I've got peace of mind over how I'm feeling. His current behaviour is pushing me away (and mine is for him), but if we give up now, I'll feel like we gave up before the storm passed, and won't feel like I've had any closure on it. But, I don't see how things are going to improve. He needs love and affection to move forward, I cannot give him that, I need time and mental space, he cannot give me that.

The other day he cornered me in the bathroom and talked at me while I was in the shower and I felt so uncomfortable. It's what pushed me over to claim my bench time actually. Re your suggestion of me leaving my phone off, he'd probably be up for that if I left it behind, as he'd know I wasn't contacting anyone then. Worth a shot!
This thread is just awful. Take your phone with you. Don't encourage his blackmail. Use a series of photos of random half-dressed men as your screensaver, and always answer the phone with a loud "Hello darling!". Maybe you will "make him" divorce you.

“he's working on removing a lot of the bad behaviours he used to have (which I disliked) and just leave the good behaviours (which I must have liked at some point) - so I feel like I need to try and feel something again.”

Because he’s persuaded you that you are the driver of all his behaviour, good and bad. So if you leave, he’ll revert to being a dickhead with all the implications for you and your child - but if you leave he might, just might, transform? Is that it?

Why don’t you do an experiment today? If you’re posting on here and you realise you’re about to write “he feels” or “he knows” or “he would say” or otherwise give us his side of things - you just stop. Take a moment. And give us your side only. I think it’d be a useful experiment in terms of reframing your thinking to centre your own thoughts and feelings without his there as balance/alternative.

@FoxgloveSummers

“he's working on removing a lot of the bad behaviours he used to have (which I disliked) and just leave the good behaviours (which I must have liked at some point) - so I feel like I need to try and feel something again.”

Because he’s persuaded you that you are the driver of all his behaviour, good and bad. So if you leave, he’ll revert to being a dickhead with all the implications for you and your child - but if you leave he might, just might, transform? Is that it?

Last one should be “if you stay” obviously