Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

Thing is helpless do you actually still "like" DH. I mean properly he's your best buddy, you want to spend time with him, he's the one you turn to in a crisis. I know right now the "love" is not there, but if the "like" has gone I think the love will never come back. "Like" is the core of any relationship it's what gets you through when things are rough, you know that person still has your back even if they've hurt you. Can you say that here....please really think hard, listen to the little voice. This is something that is nothing to do with what he thinks or feels, it's your feelings, you have to start listening to them without colouring it with how will this affect him.

Yes, but it seems to me to be predominantly (entirely?) about what he needs. The ‘to get over the affair’ is a bit of a red herring as he had ways of asserting his needs before that to the detriment of yours. It is reasonable, or would be reasonable, for you to both understand what he ‘needs’ to get over the affair/function at emotional equilibrium and also recognise and state that you are not able to fulfil his needs, if you do not want to.

In other words, just because he says he needs something, even if argues persuasively and convincingly, does not mean that you have to provide it. You can say no.

Of course you rationally know that, but the cumulative effect of discussion after discussion where he puts forwards his needs in various ways and forms is that your ability to say no diminishes because you lose faith in your reasons for saying no. And then of course, you are not sure yourself of what you want to do, which opens up a space for his narrative of what you should do; and of course your own views about staying together for the sake of the children come into play as well.

The other thing I thought last night when I was thinking about this is that - if I were him - I would be drawing a line under this. What is the merit of persuading/coercing/wearing someone down into loving you? Does he realise that is what he is doing? Would you not just say enough, let’s have a trial separation and address any issues from there? Has he no pride? Is it so much about control and needing things to stay how he wants them? Or are you in reality saying what he wants to hear so he genuinely believes that you will love him again?

Not sure any of that is helpful. You don’t need to answer any of these questions. I genuinely don’t think I am a good person to be giving advice because I am exhausted just reading this. For me, there is always the thought, whether ex and I could have worked things out and then I come back to the point - but how? And I don’t see an answer to that question which does not involve us being different people. But that is my situation, not yours.

loveyourself I hope you get back into a proper bed soon! Poor you. Well done on the mediation, though.

Sorry that took me so long to write that I did not see your very sensible intervention Pashazade. The ‘Yes, but’ was to the OP, not you.

@Pashazade
This is something that is nothing to do with what he thinks or feels, it's your feelings, you have to start listening to them without colouring it with how will this affect him.
So true. And so difficult to do!

@KatySun
For me, there is always the thought, whether ex and I could have worked things out and then I come back to the point - but how? And I don’t see an answer to that question which does not involve us being different people.
And that's the sad, inescapable fact of relationships that have run their course.
That anguish does wear off over time, I promise you. Especially once you actually do become a different person by experiencing different situations and relationships. These vexing questions eventually become irrelevant.

I genuinely don’t think I am a good person to be giving advice because I am exhausted just reading this. For me, there is always the thought, whether ex and I could have worked things out and then I come back to the point - but how?
katy
I'm also starting to feel a bit triggered by this thread. It was so hard to untangle the dynamic between me and exH that when I think about it too much I start doubting myself again.

helpless I'm glad you talked to your sister. Her crying is not something you did to her. She was being empathetic with you - can you see it that she is crying about how you've been treated? Because she loves you? Maybe you can keep talking to her

He can be very convincing and persuasive, at the moment I'm trying to be extra friendly and cuddly to show I'm trying

For some reason this line really struck me.

You don't write "because I'm trying". You write, I want to show that I'm trying.

Why? If you're being cuddly but don't actually feel like being cuddly, it's something you're doing consciously for him, not for you. But why? Why do you feel the need to show you are trying?

Being blunt (again! Sorry!) are you behaving in this way to keep the option open with him for staying? So you meet just enough of his needs around affection, you placate him when he's annoyed that you've "not decided yet" (although fully agree with PP that you're more than meeting him halfway!) so that he's still on the hook, as it were, and if you do decide to stay, you still have the option? Or is it another reason?

What would need to happen, what would you need to feel, for you to positively decide to stay?

@Pashazade

Thing is helpless do you actually still "like" DH. I mean properly he's your best buddy, you want to spend time with him, he's the one you turn to in a crisis. I know right now the "love" is not there, but if the "like" has gone I think the love will never come back. "Like" is the core of any relationship it's what gets you through when things are rough, you know that person still has your back even if they've hurt you. Can you say that here....please really think hard, listen to the little voice. This is something that is nothing to do with what he thinks or feels, it's your feelings, you have to start listening to them without colouring it with how will this affect him.

Great post and absolutely true in married life.

Genuinely like the person you're with is crucial to a successful long term relationship.

It's so clear you don't love him any more. You want to appease, you are even forcing yourself to hug him, it's a deliberate action, not because you want to give your hubby & big hug, but because he is constantly pestering for a decision, you are hedging your bets, it s all forced & basically still a reaction to his needs, his accusations, his demands.
you are pacifying him, same as accepting his verbal abuse,
Say nothing, Play it down, he will calm down, he will.
Your sister was entirely right to cry, How dare he, treat you so badly over YEARS ? What did you do to deserve it ?
You have been keeping your unhappiness a secret for years. it's tragic.
You are so used to pacifying, you even try to convince us, but, but, but.
Having sex is for your benefit, I actually laughed.
Why didn't he stay home with DD & let you go for a walk with your sister, who you see so rarely ? He can walk with his friend another day.
Its not supposed to be this hard.

Alcemeg and QuebtinBunbury thank you . I have been through it all again with this thread (which is no negative reflection on the OP at all, it was my choice to read and post) and still come to the conclusion that the answer was no. I don’t think it was just that the relationship had run it’s course, but more I was not able to get past things which happened. I would have had to subsume so much of my own feelings and I was not able to do that. (It seems to me the way that control and manipulation works in one way is just that your own thoughts are crowded out by the other person’s thoughts and needs and then that person’s thoughts and needs become like your inner critic, which actually takes a conscious effort to stop).

What you say about new relationships and things not mattering so much is true Alcemeg, although I think that has taken longer for me because the legal process was dragged on and in some respects is still not resolved (which I won’t explain as there is already too much information on this thread!). Then I was getting back on track and COVID hit. At hand overs, he is super friendly and nice now, but with no acknowledgement that lots of what happened was NOT okay, it left me traumatised. But of course if I told him to leave me alone and not speak to me, as I have tried to do in the past many a time, I would be the unfriendly, obstructive one.

Anyway, pasture new, that gives me lots more positive things to ponder, thank you

*pastures new

@KatySun that does sound complicated and difficult, I am sorry! There are some situations where you just can't win, and you just have to keep mentally drawing a line under it all. Sometimes you also have to give up trying to make sense of it. Things will become clearer (and easier) with time. Wishing you more tranquil pastures new

It seems to me the way that control and manipulation works in one way is just that your own thoughts are crowded out by the other person’s thoughts and needs and then that person’s thoughts and needs become like your inner critic, which actually takes a conscious effort to stop.
I think you're absolutely right. OP experienced this recently when she started talking about "zombie-ing" her way into the future, and it turned out that's how her husband had described her.

It's actually quite disturbing to realise how much we internalise of other people's [often distorted] perceptions. That's why it's so important to choose a life partner who properly "sees" us!

Thank you Alcemeg

While working on something completely unrelated, I came across this. It's described on Wikipedia as the "Robert Plutchik Wheel of Emotions" and I thought I'd share it here, as it's rather marvellous to contemplate.

Credit to "Machine Elf 1735" for the design.

well that is interesting, confusing, strange !

I've just realised you can't properly see the outer labels. Here's a JPG version on a white background.

Philosophically, I think it's really interesting to consider the outermost labels, e.g. optimism as an overlap of interest and serenity; aggressiveness as an overlap of annoyance and interest; contempt as an overlap of boredom and annoyance.

And personally, I think it's worth considering which of these we are experiencing most commonly!

I have been reflecting on the wheel of emotions, so I will offer my thoughts! Thank you for posting it alcemeg

My first thoughts were pretty, but confusing. I can see some of the connections, but not others. A bit of Googling to understand it led me to the Geneva emotions wheel which seemed more intuitive to me; it also has a space at the centre for if you don’t feel anything. But that is just my view.

But the more interesting point I got to was about who is responsible for these emotions. I was considering boredom, which is next to contempt and disgust in the wheel you posted. Boredom was an emotion or feeling I identified I felt with my job pre-pandemic. But not contempt or disgust; I do actually like my job a lot and have great colleagues, the issue was with me having done the same roles for too long. So the responsibility was also with me to find new roles or work out how to address that. Had people said no, you cannot change roles, then it might have led to resentment and frustration and upset, I suppose. As it happened, the pandemic came along and everything was shaken up so fast I regretted feeling bored! But my point is about recognising emotions, yes, but also recognising where the responsibility lies to change them. So mainly yourself. In some places, eg work, you might need others’ permission to change things but it is up to you to manage your own emotions around that professionally.

I guess in personal relationships, there is more leeway to be emotional, but the fundamental point is the same, that managing one’s emotions is the responsibility of the individual. It is fine to express emotions, but not okay to use someone else as an emotional punchbag or sponge. I mean, we teach our children to manage their emotions; not to not have them, but to be okay with them and to know what is appropriate and what is not appropriate in expressing them. Like it is okay to be angry, but it is not okay to hit or name call because you are angry.

KatySun great explanation of being responsible for ones own emotions .

But the struggle with also feeling responsible for another's emotions is always there isn't it .We are continually balancing "action A will make me happy but will result in someone else being unhappy " .

I guess one has to distinguish between the compromises one is ok about making and the others which are damaging ,maybe to both people .Is the other end of the spectrum of give and take co dependency ?

Interesting points Katysun

I would also add that one important thing l have learnt recently is that we are not responsible for any one else’s emotions. This is mind boggling for me as l have always so easily been troubled if l think l have hurt someone. I hope you don’t mind me saying this hopelesshelpless but l really think you suffer terribly from this as well eg wishing you hadn’t spoken to your sister as she cried on hearing your news.

I am interested in the link between annoyance and anger. I often found STBX’s behaviour very irritating and often questioned myself as to why, sometimes thinking that l was the irritable one rather than him being annoying. It wasn’t until recently that l read that someone who annoys you is often pushing your boundaries in a myriad of small ways. That made a lot of sense.

I totally agree we have to take responsibility for our emotions. What is hard is when we have a dynamic with someone who perhaps can be inconsistent and has a mixture of healthy and unhealthy behaviours. I find l get very confused and my reactions to the behaviours can be intense and strong almost in a disproportionate way.

I am struggling with a very old friendship at the moment. My friend can be absolutely lovely and do the most thoughtful things but conversely she can also be very conspicuous by her absence. When l first left STBXH she was very supportive and caring. In the last six weeks or so she seems to have distanced herself and it’s felt hard to make arrangements with her (she’s been non committal, can take a while to respond to messages) She always been very thoughtful around birthdays but this year - my first birthday on my own for 27 years she’s been the opposite , cancelling a visit at the last minute to drop off a present which was already a week late and so on. This has really hurt.

I have felt very strong emotions around her behaviour and am worried l will say something l will regret. I am worried that my emotions are unnaturally heightened due to my situation and so are disproportionate. However other friends/family managed to get that this year was difficult for me and were thoughtful. I feel genuinely confused about how l should respond to her but aware that my emotions are my responsibility.

Whatdirection. I go walking with one of my best friends, we always chew the cud, & tell each other our woes. One thing I try to remember is that the friend I am "outpouring" to, may be sick of hearing it, & I also need to listen.
Do you think this friend of yours is feeling overloaded with your problems? maybe send her a small gift/card/word of thanks?

Whatdirection I wonder if your friend is a bit like me in that I can overcommit myself in the friendly.supportive role .

I have a number of friends ( whom I really really like ) but the dynamic between us is often weighted towards me being supportive .Sometimes I just can't manage it and I do withdraw .

I realise this is very far from being helpful on my part and I need to be more honest in my relationships and less patronising .( yes ,yes ,especially to those I live with ).I think for me it's a way of not really engaging ,remaining aloof ,not sharing or showing my own vunerabilities .

what do you think she has stuff going on in her life? I have ongoing depression and often withdraw from friends when it's bad, I just don't have the energy and then it all snowballs so I'm ashamed I haven't been in touch.
It could well be more about her than you

@Alcemeg that is so so interesting! Especially to see the graduation of the extreme feelings to the less intense and more neutral every day states. I'd say where my husband is concerned I'm in 'submission' and a cross between acceptance and apprehension is definitely a good way to describe it.

@KatySun and @QuentinBunbury you have both been so thoughtful and insightful in your comments and I really do appreciate the time and efforts you've taken to help me untangle my web of thoughts - I hate to think that it's been triggering or draining for either of you but I totally understand why it would be, after all you've dealt with with your own ex's. But thank you again and I hope you're both ok 

In other words, just because he says he needs something, even if argues persuasively and convincingly, does not mean that you have to provide it. You can say no.

This really helped give me a new perspective actually. I think I do feel like I need to submit (or at least attempt) to everything he needs, because of the guilt and the fact that I should be trying everything I can. I've been feeling like I'm in the wrong for not being able to give any more than I feel that I can or have to give, but your post helped me see that that is not necessarily the case!

@Pashazade great point, and the answer is I don't really know, which perhaps in itself answers the question he does have a lot of likeable qualities objectively, but I think our main connection now is our shared history and our daughter more than anything else. We don't have the same sense of humour or interests and actually in the past (even before the affair) I've really struggled to think of things to talk to him about when we're out on a date or whatever (especially if he's not reciprocating my chat efforts!). I wouldn't turn to him if I was sad or upset and even if I did I don't think he'd know how to comfort me.

I'm glad you talked to your sister. Her crying is not something you did to her. She was being empathetic with you - can you see it that she is crying about how you've been treated? Because she loves you? Maybe you can keep talking to her

Oh, it was awful we didn't even get into the details as I think she didn't feel qualified to give advice (she's never been in a relationship) so wasn't very forthcoming with the conversation. I was a bit disappointed actually as I asked if she'd ever noticed his treatment of me and she said that she thought it was just 'his way'

You don't write "because I'm trying". You write, I want to show that I'm trying.[...] Being blunt (again! Sorry!) are you behaving in this way to keep the option open with him for staying?

Good spot!! I think it links in with the need I mentioned a while ago to be in that 'safe space' with him. In order for me to have any chance of a calm and level environment in which I can finally work out and listen to my feelings, he needs to feel calm and happy. For him to feel calm and happy he needs to feel like I'm making an effort. If he doesn't feel that, then he becomes upset and starts talking about us splitting and there being no hope - but I'm never ready to consider that because I don't feel like I've had a chance to properly process everything in a calm way to reach a considered conclusion. So it's a bit of an unhelpful cycle and we're both feeding into it in an unhealthy way.

Its not supposed to be this hard

Yes I do wonder sometimes if any relationship is ever this difficult and actually manages to get back through to good times, to make all of this anguish worth it?!

It took me so long to post that since I started writing it at 8am that I see there's been several most posts in the meantime!

@Whatdirection really sad to hear that your friend is being less forthcoming with you. I agree with others that perhaps this is more about her than you. She sounds very all or nothing, is that a part of her personality in other areas of life? Does she plough lots of energy into new ventures but then run out of steam quite quickly?

I too am struggling with the difference between being a caring person and taking responsibility for someone else's feelings. It's a fine line for me, and often recently my husband has told me I've been uncaring as a result of me trying to detach myself from the responsibility of his emotions and his reaction to them. Which makes me think I've got the balance wrong!

"Which makes me think I've got the balance wrong!"
He should be responsible for his own feelings, his own actions, this current impasse.
you keep saying you need a safe space to gather up your feelings.
he refuses, why is that do you think ? because he's a bullying arsehole ?

Thank you so much for your considered responses Mix56, Peridito, QuentinBunbury and Hopelesshelpless - they have really helped to quieten my mind. I think she does get very overwhelmed and likes to go ‘the extra mile’ for people but then can’t manage it all and withdraws.

I do find that since being on my own, l don’t have a ‘sounding board’ anymore or some-one to witter onto about the nuances of everyday interactions. Of course my STBXH would have always been that person in the past and also my late Mum. So things do go round and round my mind with no outlet and then build up.

Hopelesshelpless - so sorry to hear your sister’s initial reaction was disappointing for you. Maybe she needs a little ‘take up’ time and may get on board after a while. My brother took a while to get up to speed.

However don’t let it put you off telling people - but be aware that some people will be better than others. I do find if someone has been through similar experiences to you then they are more likely to ‘get it’ - two friends of mine who have been great have also had their fair share of break ups to navigate. Whereas my oldest friend is very settled in her marriage with a very reliable husband and has made comments like ‘if my marriage had been happier then l should have been able to get past it’ making me feel a little bit like l should have tried harder.