Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

I would imagine there's not much difference between getting a new half-sibling and getting a new full sibling in terms of jealousy? You are technically an "outsider" to the new family as it's not your real dad/mum. But at the same time, you were there first . In my case it was a relatively big age gap but I loved having babies/toddlers/children to play around with. My own children have enjoyed having six grandparents. I had issues around only seeing my dad twice a year, but obviously that's not a general problem of divorce, and we do still have a good relationship anyway.

He really is all about himself feeling so "helpless"

The truth is he had treated you badly for years, when he felt he could, because he thought he could, because he really believed you would just accept it.

NOW he is helpless🙄.

He's a nasty man who had zero respect for you.
You can tie yourself up.in knots for years OP but he showed you EXACTLY who he is.

To the mother of his child.

He is an odious man and how your skin doesn't crawl at the idea of him near you if you stay with him is something else.

He cannot transform into someone else.

He is who he IS.
This is his true character.

You can give your daughter a lovely future on your own.

He will have to decide what type of father he chooses to be.

"Leer or ignore" would make a terrible game show. There are other options.

He later came to speak to me to say he understands that I’m not in that ‘zone’ but he feels incredibly rejected by me (whilst also being very attracted to me), so while he was trying to not make comments, some will ‘slip’ out and I needed to be kind to him
Not in that zone? You're considering divorce. You're not just a bit out of the zone today.
He feels rejected so he has to look up your shorts? Not he feels rejected so he is quieter and more thoughtful than usual?
Because you rejected him so badly, comments will slip out? Those nasty women made me do it #metoo
You need to be kind to him? How were you being unkind? Was he being kind?

Amazing thread name OP!!!!!
I think that everyone agrees with me on this that you are the most successful, most popular, most amazing poster on the MN. We love you. I know that this thread is supposed to be about you and your life, but thank you for allowing us to post our own stories too. It has been a true sharing, helping and healing place for me for the last couple of months and I really appreciate it. Thank you and all the other amazing women who were posting there thoughts, experiences and amazing wisdom for the rest of us to have. I love you guys, you are the best.

Only when you are safely out of the relationship can you begin to build trust in your own judgement.
Yes. So many things I believed I was rubbish at. Take cleaning for example. I was a messy teen, met exH at 21, he used to constantly mention how bad I was out housework. With occasional outbursts of "you are not fking doing that again, look how much you've messed it up" and massive martyr complex about how much he did and how "lazy" I was.
When I first moved out it was a huge struggle to get past that view I had of myself - that I would never manage alone because I'm lazy and incapable of housework.
Turns out it was bollocks. My house is clean. I can run it and my job and my children just fine. He's an arsehole and I hate he undermined me like that. Every day I look at my clean house and think "screw you, fuckwit. What a load of bollocks"

The longer we are apart the more I'm unprogramming the bad stuff and I love finding that all this negative stuff I believed about myself....just isn't true!

@QuentinBunbury True. Mind you, it can work the other way. I used to think all the mess was his. Imagine my surprise...! 😃

@helplesshopeless a few reflections on your earlier post 😊
And outside of everything else, he deserves to have someone who loves and appreciates him for him, which I don’t feel able to do.
That's very clever of you, turning it around so that you can move forward out of concern for HIS feelings and not your own. I'm not being sarcastic here, I really mean it. I used a similar strategy, as I tried to convince myself that our relationship wasn't healthy for either of us in the long run. And indeed, he did become a much more fully rounded person after facing life without me as a prop.

But I just think come on, it’s not that hard not to leer at me!
I'm glad you're not just accepting his explanations at face value!

That is exactly what I need to do, but I have no idea if I have the strength to achieve it.
I bet Bill Bailey said that when he first danced with Oti.

Oh God, You are not a piece of meat,
Not surprisingly you don't want to allow him leering, mauling you, he has no respect for you as a person. He's perving.
Its not exciting, its not sexy, it even makes my skin crawl.

@loveyourself2020

Amazing thread name OP!!!!! I think that everyone agrees with me on this that you are the most successful, most popular, most amazing poster on the MN. We love you. I know that this thread is supposed to be about you and your life, but thank you for allowing us to post our own stories too. It has been a true sharing, helping and healing place for me for the last couple of months and I really appreciate it. Thank you and all the other amazing women who were posting there thoughts, experiences and amazing wisdom for the rest of us to have. I love you guys, you are the best.

I've got so much understanding from the thread about my own situation, am in the same position as @helplesshopeless, am finding my daily read of this thread a great help

I found the beginnings of my relationship with DP quite strange that he never did any jokey pervy leering or suchlike. Eventually I realised it's because he doesn't see boobs/a bum/legs, he sees me.

This is the kind of dynamic I want! I want to be attractive and wanted for me rather than my body. My husband has always been one for slightly lewd remarks, the odd disrespectful comment or joke about women, and I hate it. It just feels like he doesn't completely respect women (which ties in with him calling strong women that stand up for themselves battleaxes!). My husband has told me recently that while he wants me to be healthy and I need to start eating more, he's also enjoying the fact that I am nice and small now (weight loss still occurring at the moment) as that's his type  and when my daughter was younger, during arguments he'd complain that I'd let myself go. Anyway, going off on a tangent now! I suppose my point is that I don't like the way he sees me and what he places value on. There's no tenderness or intimacy, and I don't think there ever has been (he may disagree with that).

Secondly, non jokingly, the point about the sibling. Isn't this all tied into your own view of what a successful life should look like, for you?

That is true! Thank you, that's helped with my panics over that actually. It's just my main concern over all of this is the impact on my daughter, and anything in that arena seems especially difficult to get my head around.

Because you rejected him so badly, comments will slip out? Those nasty women made me do it #metooYou need to be kind to him? How were you being unkind? Was he being kind?

Hmm, yes, I think he was saying that he was trying to not make comments, but when he did, my reaction to them did not help with his feelings of rejection. For the looking up shorts leers, I've just been telling him to stop it, but that morning I said it more snappily and said it was creepy which he took issue with. I can see his point but I wish he was someone who didn't find it such a struggle to not behave like that! @Mix56, it makes my skin crawl too

@loveyourself2020 your lovely sweet comment did make me smile, bless you!! I don't think I can claim the most popular poster on MN award  but I agree, this has been such a hugely helpful and healing thread and it's all thanks to all of you lovely posters who have been steadfastly supporting and gently nudging along the way!  how is your youngest daughter getting on now?

That's very clever of you, turning it around so that you can move forward out of concern for HIS feelings and not your own.

Ha, the mental gymnastics we engage in! I do feel like I'm being completely selfish though in not being able to acknowledge my feelings, as it is just dragging this all out for him and making things really difficult for him.

My sister is arriving today she will have to make herself scarce while we have counselling tonight but I'm hoping to be able to have a good chat with her at some point over the weekend.

Wishing you all a wonderful Thursday!

My husband has told me recently that while he wants me to be healthy and I need to start eating more, he's also enjoying the fact that I am nice and small now (weight loss still occurring at the moment) as that's his type  and when my daughter was younger, during arguments he'd complain that I'd let myself go.
It's funny that your emoji just showed up as "OBJ" after "as that's his type" -- underlining that he objectifies you in this way.

This really, really, REALLY is not someone you want to be growing old with. He mocked you for looking annoying when you felt ill. (God help you if you ever get really ill and need his support.) How annoying will he find it when you look wrinkled and weak? Not very sexy, is it?! I expect by then he will have traded you in for a better model. With his attitude, it's inevitable really isn't it?

I do hope you get some proper private time with your sister and your husband doesn't find some way of disrupting it, e.g. jumping in every 5 minutes shouting "Anyone for tennis?" 😂

I do hope you get some proper private time with your sister and your husband doesn't find some way of disrupting it, e.g. jumping in every 5 minutes shouting "Anyone for tennis?"
Yeah - could you go out for dinner with her and husband stay at home with DD or something so you can have a proper chat?

I suppose my point is that I don't like the way he sees me and what he places value on.

This is becoming abundantly clear and is a really important realisation. And so the logical follow-up - is that what you want your DD to be taught, how daddy sees mummy and what's important to daddy, what daddy values?

The comments on your weight - given what you've implied his views are on things like sexism etc this isn't a surprise - but again, what if your DD isn't cute or slim as a teenager (Lord knows I wasn't!) Is the same objectification going to be applied to her? And she'll believe that's normal, because it's applied to you.

I've refrained from slating him too much but your last post suggests he really is a complete cock OP, sorry.

I'm wondering if he's already sounded you out on how much you intend to confide in your sister. Be careful, even if he seems to express support for you getting time with her.

Make sure, as Quentin says, that it's you and her who go out together - without DD - so you can talk freely AND he can't come back early and sabotage your time with her.

Remember, his MO is saying he'll give you space, but not delivering.

I would be half expecting him to corral you alone after the couples’ counselling, particularly if she has gone out, and/or to try and get his side of the story across to her somehow, but then on the other hand, you might get him on his best behaviour to undermine whatever you say about him.

He will at some point definitely want to know what, if anything, you have confides in her.

But maybe I do him a disservice.

I would tell him you are going out for a walk/to the pub/shopping with Sister. No point in looking for an opening, he won't allow it to happen.
Just say, "I want to chat to my sister", no point in pretending its anything other than what it is. he won't lie it... Too bad eh ?

Good luck with the couple’s counselling this evening.

@helplesshopeless
Thank you for asking. She seems to be ok but you never know. I try to keep an eye on her, all three of them really, while at the same time taking care of myself, but it is hard. My STBX and I are having our first mediation session this Saturday and I am very anxious about it.

I hope you enjoy your time with your sister. I find it very soothing being surrounded with your family (I have a sister too). Both my parents have passed away some years ago and I find I miss them right now very, very much. Although I am not sure that they would be approving of my decision, as for them marriage was above all. You take care and let us know how it all went.

Lovely new thread!

“That is exactly what I need to do, but I have no idea if I have the strength to achieve it.
I bet Bill Bailey said that when he first danced with Oti” I love this analogy! Really enjoyed their friendship as it seemed so creative and respectful

Hi OP sorry I haven’t been around as much lately, work and life just got out of control. Yucked out to hear about his comments on you but sadly not that surprised. I’ve got a really clear image now of the dynamic between you, mainly you existing and him feeling free to critique and comment on everything you do/say/are. I’ve seen couples like that and the coldness in the man’s eyes is something not easily forgotten, it’s a constant appraisal of his property which always somehow comes up short.

Got any nice plans with your sister? Bet you can’t wait to see her!

what if your DD isn't cute or slim as a teenager (Lord knows I wasn't!) Is the same objectification going to be applied to her? And she'll believe that's normal, because it's applied to you.

He has actually said in the past that he will not allow her to be overweight. I think he does mean in the sense of wanting her to exercise and be healthy (he is gym obsessed) but if for whatever reason she was over weight I can imagine him handling it with a lack of tact (although he definitely would not want to body shame her in any way). I'm hoping by the time that becomes relevant he will have progressed in his journey of self development and so would approach any health issues in a much more sensitive manner...

He made some light hearted comment to my sister about me being all bone at the moment, so who knows now whether he wants me to stay small or not!

Re getting some time alone with my sister, he is going out tomorrow evening for drinks so we will have some time then. I'm a bit nervous, not sure how to start the conversation! And she is already concerned about me with the weight loss so I don't want to add to her worries and she really does take things to heart.

Counselling was ok last night, it was a difficult session because there was a lot of talk by him discussion around me 'throwing my body at the OM' but being so 'repulsed' by my own husband that I can't even bring myself to be intimate with him. He's made it clear that he needs to see some progress from me in terms of moving closer to meeting him in the middle, as he feels like he's working really hard to put his feelings of hurt around the affair to the side, and is desperate for us to be happy again, but he feels like he's getting nothing back from me.

Since that session he's been very withdrawn from me and it's made me very anxious. We had a chat earlier and he reiterated that he can't keep going like this for much longer and he needs to start getting something back from me. I committed to trying harder to engage with him. He is still convinced that I've decided he's not good enough for me/we're not compatible, and I don't really know what to say when he says that.

I am just locked in this cycle of a) him getting disheartened and withdrawing from me and me desperately trying to reassure him and cheer him up again and then b) once he is feeling happier, I withdraw as I don't want to take things any further. Which takes him back to a)!

On top of that, I'm still scared that he is going to end it and that in a month or so down the line I'll suddenly 'unfreeze' and realise that I didn't try hard enough and I've thrown everything away. I think I really need to feel like I've absolutely tried to make this work, before I can allow myself to let go.

@loveyourself2020 ah I'm sorry to hear you're struggling. I can imagine the mediation hanging over you is so stressful, and perhaps once that first session is done and you know what to expect, that might lift slightly if you start to see path ahead? Any chance of whisking your daughters back off to the mountains after?! ☺️ will be thinking of you, hope it goes well 

@TheThermalStair I also love bill Bailey and Otis, that analogy really made me smile 😁 my sister is here now and it's lovely, we're all off to a wildlife centre tomo but other than that just having some cosy evenings in together!

Sorry, first paragraph from @Cavagirl should be bold 🙄 does anyone else lose the bold-ness when they add in an emoji to the post?! Trips me up every time!

Forgot to say, he's invited my sister out on a walk shortly - I don't think he would do this, but am half wondering if he's going to spill the beans to her!

What are the chances he cancels his drinks at the last minute? I’d put a tenner on it.

I’m sorry to be so blunt but the “moving closer to him” stuff is just about sex, he wants to be able to have sex/use your body for sex again and he thinks it’s really unfair that you won’t. The rejection stuff is about this too. It almost feels to me like you’ve somewhat persuaded yourself that you can live with this ever-improving (allegedly) version of him, but you can’t persuade yourself to want sex with him. That shows the limits that your body is imposing - your body wants away from him. Your mind is trying to overrule.

Any unfreezing you envisage would essentially be the reversal of that feeling - I think we all know that’s not about to happen.

Also can’t believe you really believe he won’t bodyshame your daughter when he’s all revved up to do so whenever!! And he’s doing it to you!! Honestly the amount of credit or credulity you have in the face of his overtly horrible, not normal behaviour is just - well it’s sad. Sorry.

Yes, I would not be surprised if he wants to get his side of the story over first to your sister. Or make himself out to be Mr Nice Guy so that you come across as unfair when you explain the issues.

So much wrong with the pressure he is putting you under. To cut to the chase, what he means is that he does not know how long he can put up with you not having sex with him. Urgh. (I just realised that ThermalStair said much the same thing in a more astute way. Remember consent is affirmative, it is not being worn down until you give in).

And the comments about your body. Urgh.

And not wanting your DD to get overweight. Ha!! DS is a tall and large child. That was a stick to beat me with too, but no medical professional has deemed him to meet the threshold for intervention and he is fit and does lots of exercise. Parents don’t always get what they wish for and they need to accept that and love their children as they are and do their best to ensure they are healthy.

I don’t have lots of money, but I would happily wager some of it that you won’t ‘unfreeze’ a few months after this marriage ends, if it ends. Your heart will sing for joy with freedom and lack of pressure and your body and mind will recover. That is my prediction.

He has actually said in the past that he will not allow her to be overweight.
She's three, no? Three? And he's saying shit like this. I'm sorry but this is disgusting, and is just another testament to how he views women as objects. It's his daughter. WTAF.

I think he does mean in the sense of wanting her to exercise and be healthy (he is gym obsessed) but if for whatever reason she was over weight I can imagine him handling it with a lack of tact (although he definitely would not want to body shame her in any way).
OP you are clutching at straws here, you know it. He wouldn't want to body shame her just in the way he wouldn't want you to feel upset when he gets angry, but his behaviour means it happens anyway. You won't be able to shield her from it. And it's not a "lack of tact", like it's an obese adult we're talking about here, it's a tween/teen girl whose body is changing as she's growing up and whose father places so much emphasis on physical appearance (as accepted by her mother) she will have heavy internalised that her value is defined by being slim and cute. Poor girl if she's neither, will she be a disappointment to him?

I'm hoping by the time that becomes relevant he will have progressed in his journey of self development and so would approach any health issues in a much more sensitive manner...
That's a pretty big hope.

Sorry OP I'm pretty brutal here but you talk about wanting to stay together because you believe that's what's best for your DD. But having him as a full time father I really question if that's what's best for her, the more you talk about how he views and treats women, not just you, women in general. You are minimising this.

He’s not managing the ‘new changed man’ facade very well is he?

I am just locked in this cycle of a) him getting disheartened and withdrawing from me and me desperately trying to reassure him and cheer him up again and then b) once he is feeling happier, I withdraw as I don't want to take things any further. Which takes him back to a)!
I recognise this cycle very clearly from my own experience. It's what happens when you feel completely responsible for his feelings, but give only the smallest attention to your own. You are caught between a rock and a hard place: you don't want to hurt him in any way (hence reassurance), but you also cannot bring yourself to be entirely dishonest (by actively encouraging him). It's a vicious circle. I also used to feel anxious about "messing him around" in this way! Funny how we never get impatient with messing ourselves around... but then, our own time/feelings are less precious 😉

He's made it clear that he needs to see some progress from me in terms of moving closer to meeting him in the middle
I'd say you continuing to share your home life with him, indulging his ego and accommodating his demands as best you can, when you don't even love him any more (and for good reason), is more than meeting him halfway.

I'm still scared that he is going to end it and ... a month or so down the line I'll suddenly 'unfreeze' and realise that I didn't try hard enough and I've thrown everything away. I think I really need to feel like I've absolutely tried to make this work, before I can allow myself to let go.
I can completely relate to this, too. In fact, the horrible thing about splitting up is that for a long time afterwards it is very difficult to lose this feeling. To go through with the split, some part of me had finally yielded and accepted that things would never be right; that if we were ever going to properly understand and value each other, we'd have managed it by now. Yet for ages afterwards, I kept wondering if there was something I should have said or done that might have made all the difference. I think it's to do with shouldering all the responsibility. But it's not all your fault, although you'll go on thinking it is for a long time yet.

it was a difficult session because there was a lot of talk by him discussion around me 'throwing my body at the OM' but being so 'repulsed' by my own husband that I can't even bring myself to be intimate with him
In fact, you didn't throw your body at the OM. You opened your soul to him. That's a very different matter, and one that your ex-DH (sorry!) does not seem to understand. He reduces you to a body, a toy, a plaything, that is malfunctioning in the most irritating way. "You can't even bring yourself to" have sex with someone you no longer respect and on many levels have grown to distrust, even despise. I can just see him drumming his fingers with impatience. Silly old trout, it's not much to ask!!!!!!! (I hope you can read clearly between the lines of that: it's utter spiritual violation, sorry)

I'm a bit nervous, not sure how to start the conversation! And she is already concerned about me with the weight loss so I don't want to add to her worries and she really does take things to heart.
Please don't chicken out because you're afraid of adding to her burdens (etc)! If I were your sister, I would hate it if you kept this from me. I'd want every opportunity to help you.

Maybe you could set the ball rolling by asking what your husband had to say on their walk together. I hope he hasn't somehow primed her to take whatever you tell her with a big pinch of salt...