Bastard bingo around the campfire

[helplesshopeless]

Hi everyone...creating thread number 2 (or at least, attempting to...!) Link to old thread here

If that link doesn't work, I'll be forever indebted to any of you more mumsnet savvy folks helping me out!

I'll come back in a bit to post properly, thank you all again for your help and support

@ViolaDay
I don’t have lots of money, but I would happily wager some of it that you won’t ‘unfreeze’ a few months after this marriage ends, if it ends. Your heart will sing for joy with freedom and lack of pressure and your body and mind will recover. That is my prediction.

I couldn't have put it better

Also just to say, OP, if your DH has been bullshitting your sister ("Poor old OP has gone really crazy/irrational lately, I'm really worried for her..."), I'm pretty sure I know who she's going to believe.

sorry - meant to say exDH 😋

Based on tonight's PPs, I can also see this turning into a betting thread!!!!!!!!

I was so outraged by the pressure on OP, I completely forgot I’d changed my name 🤣! I was like ‘who is this ViolaDay with my words?’
KatySun would agree no doubt.

I am just locked in this cycle of a) him getting disheartened and withdrawing from me and me desperately trying to reassure him and cheer him up again and then b) once he is feeling happier, I withdraw as I don't want to take things any further. Which takes him back to a)!

This is the problem for me too, @helplesshopeless I feel guilty for creating a bad atmosphere by being so miserable all the time, so I try to be more cheerful but then it looks like I'm encouraging him that there's something to hope for, so I go back to the coldness. And I hate that, because it's not me at all. I just want to be me x

Forgot to say, he's invited my sister out on a walk shortly - I don't think he would do this, but am half wondering if he's going to spill the beans to her!
And if he does that tells you a lot. It would show that he doesn't respect your privacy and is trying to use your support network to get what he wants. That isn't how someone who loves you and wants the best for you would behave.

I bet too, if he knows your sister is already worried, that he somehow manipulates it so he "has" to tell her. I.e. she kept asking what was wrong, he said it was your business but then she was so worried he had to tell her to reassure her you weren't ill.
Well let's hope I'm wrong though.

Hello OP and thank you as always for your kind words. Yes, I am thinking of going away for a weekend as well. We will see.

As for your situation, I am so sorry that you are going through this. I totally understand that while you are processing all this you are not willing to engage in sexual relations with your husband. This is exactly what I was doing last year when I started therapy. I probably already mentioned this at one point. After a few months my STBX came to me so say that this is not fair that I am keeping him "imprisoned" for all this time and that I have to make up my mind, that he "cannot live like this anymore". To tell you the truth, this sounded ridiculous to me. What is he talking about, I though to myself. I was behaving totally normal, talking to him, working, doing my chores, the only thing I was not doing is having sex with him. Apart from really not wanting it, I also did not want it to confuse both him and me into believing that all is normal. I have to say this, for some men, at least, it is all about sex. All he wants is sex and as long as he has it all is well and as far as he is concerned, so is the marriage. That is what my husband thought anyway.

Another bet placed, this time by the splendid @QuentinBunbury!
Plus, @ViolaDay, I must say I had a feeling you might be 😃

I've got a horrible feeling, OP, that he will be telling your sister how much he loves you and how much he wants this marriage to work; how he will do absolutely anything, and can't understand your irrational coldness towards him (and that's if he doesn't mention the betrayal).

I hope I'm wrong, but he might try to use her like this to get at you even more.

If so, it would be interesting to know how she feels about his version; whether she thinks you have any grounds for dissatisfaction.

Can you not ask your sister to refuse the walk? Say to her, you want to talk to her first, and you are worried about what lies he will tell her he will say to her.

My exH insisted on telling people that I'd had an affair, but not to blame me for the marriage ending as he'd done things too (without specifying what the "things" were)
Then he'd tell me who he'd told.

It just added to the pressure I felt under

Fear OP do talk to your sister asap. I am sure that he will try to talk to her first so that whatever you may tell her later has less weight.

I was never telling my sister anything either, in fact, I was not telling anybody. One reason was, upbringing. This is what I was taught, not to discuss my marital problems with anybody. Also, I must say, my sister is not the most sensible person and I felt that telling her will make me feel worse. When I finally told her, a few weeks ago, she was devastated. She told me that the worst thing for her is knowing that while I was hurting and struggling so much, she though everything is ok. That she was not there for me to support me.

@Cavagirl

He has actually said in the past that he will not allow her to be overweight. She's three, no? Three? And he's saying shit like this. I'm sorry but this is disgusting, and is just another testament to how he views women as objects. It's his daughter. WTAF.

I think he does mean in the sense of wanting her to exercise and be healthy (he is gym obsessed) but if for whatever reason she was over weight I can imagine him handling it with a lack of tact (although he definitely would not want to body shame her in any way).
OP you are clutching at straws here, you know it. He wouldn't want to body shame her just in the way he wouldn't want you to feel upset when he gets angry, but his behaviour means it happens anyway. You won't be able to shield her from it. And it's not a "lack of tact", like it's an obese adult we're talking about here, it's a tween/teen girl whose body is changing as she's growing up and whose father places so much emphasis on physical appearance (as accepted by her mother) she will have heavy internalised that her value is defined by being slim and cute. Poor girl if she's neither, will she be a disappointment to him?

I'm hoping by the time that becomes relevant he will have progressed in his journey of self development and so would approach any health issues in a much more sensitive manner...
That's a pretty big hope.

Sorry OP I'm pretty brutal here but you talk about wanting to stay together because you believe that's what's best for your DD. But having him as a full time father I really question if that's what's best for her, the more you talk about how he views and treats women, not just you, women in general. You are minimising this.

I totally agree with every word of the above.

@helplesshopeless
It's becoming quite upsetting reading your desperately positive spins on his vile words and actions. It's beginning to feel like he has brainwashed you. 

The fact he's said that about not allowing your daughter to be overweight, she's 3 and he's already declared that. Shocking attitude. Why on earth you'd even contemplate another child with him I cannot actually fathom. I really don't think you'd be doing your daughter any favours.

And the fact that he'd like you to try and 'meet him halfway' - just yuk. The awfulness of wanting to do it anyway even if you would rather not. It's repulsive. I know he wants you to actually want him, not to fake it, but he's kind of pushing for you to do it anyway. He's trying to force you to hurry up and make yourself desire him!

And then you're saying he's reformed, he's not a bully, he's respectful etc.

He's invited your sister for a walk now. Wonder why...

Sorry op, I do hope you manage to give yourself permission to get yourself and your child out of this highly toxic situation.

He just has to try and control everything doesn't he...you're not even allowed to be first in the queue with your own sister...

@Peach1886

He just has to try and control everything doesn't he...you're not even allowed to be first in the queue with your own sister...

Exactly!

And you can imagine the slant can't you... I'm sure you can see by helpless' little bag of bones body, that she's not herself at the moment...I'm worried about her and think she's about to make the biggest mistake of her life and ruin dd's life because she's not thinking straight... she won't let us be close these days and I'm struggling to see how I can further help her. I admit I haven't always behaved as I should, but I'm changing and I don't think she appreciates how much I love her and how good things could be. Maybe you could talk to her, make her see sense, if not for me then for little dd...'

The irony, if only he had gone off & allowed you ti breath, you might possibly have decided to try again.
Now he like is a frustrated dog, & all he wants is to offload, & your body is what he requires to take the pressure off his balls, so what if you don't love him?Oblige, its what women are for.

I would be incandescent with rage if he has tried to manipulate your sister, your closest ally.
Getting in before you to skew the narrative & offset any support she may give you. Honestly, having already tried to stop you discussing with any friends, the manipulation is right there to see.

Hi op, I’ve read both threads and just want to say you’re a wonderful person, you’ve had a lot of amazing advice and I’m glad your eyes seem to be opening to his terrible behaviour and the fact that he’s not actually a person you feel you can be with going forward.

I just wanted to mention a few things that stood out to me. Quite early on in your thread you mentioned the only other person he would take his anger out on was his mum. This is incredibly important to acknowledge. He’s grown up using her as his emotional punching bag and this has continued into your marriage with him using you in the same way. He’s unable to regulate his own emotions but expects the women in his life to do it for him, appease him, accept it and correct him for it. This is massively emotionally abusive. Its also telling that this is what he expects of women and not men, he can regulate his own emotions around men as he knows it wouldn’t be socially acceptable (to him) to do otherwise. He clearly has sexist/misogynist views about women.

He has an awful amount of work to do on himself to be capable of a truly loving and supportive relationship. It’s unrealistic of him to expect you to brush everything that’s happened aside as he’s now reading a few self help books. He was never a good candidate for a meaningful relationship, now you’ve seen him for who he truly is it’s impossible to unsee. In my personal experience once the love is gone, it’s gone.

My father was/is a very similar character. I grew up in a house where we had to tiptoe around his moods and constantly appease his behaviour while ignore our own hurt and upset that he caused. Then when he was in a good mood we’d all be chivvied along by him to ‘cheer up’ and join in. I’m sure my mum thought of these as the ‘happy times’ but they weren’t really as we were still all jumping to his tune. He set the tone, always. Our feelings were meaningless.

I have two sisters and a brother and he berated me and my sisters for our weight when we were going through puberty/young teens. Obviously nothing along these lines were ever said to my brother. His nickname for me was ‘dumpy’, he’d make ‘umpy doump’ noises as I walked past. Bearing in mind my sisters and I are all 5ft tall and size 6-8 none of us were ever fat. We were slim and healthy and did a lot of sport. My mum used to get the same treatment despite also always being slim (ex professional dancer). My auntie and uncle commented on our slimness once (in his earshot) as they were worried about us and I commented back that they needed to say that to him and that it was a miracle none of us developed anorexia as a result of his constantly calling us fat. They were totally shocked and he actually had the decency to look a bit bad about it (probably just felt bad that I’d called him out on it).

Growing up I was actually more angry in some ways with my mum for choosing such an awful husband and appeasing his behaviour to us and expecting us to go along with the stepping on eggshells. In some ways my dad was at least honestly expressing himself even though his main emotion was anger and he blamed us for it. My mum hid her emotions in order to keep the peace which I saw as dishonest even if it was done from a place of fear. If she’d stood up to him, called him out on it, we’d have been able to do the same. It still would have been a horrible environment to grow up in but as it was I had no respect for either of them, I saw them both as equally bad. Abuser and enabler.

I hope your weekend with your sister goes well and you manage to tell her what’s been going on, I share pps worry that he’ll spill his side of the story to your sister to get in their first and control the narrative. Good luck

Thanks for your post professor
It rings true with my exH and I see my DD now trying to appease him/feeling responsible for managing his emotions for him which breaks my heart and I'm not sure what to do about it

@ProfessorPootle welcome to the fireside it's lovely to have you here.

My father was/is a very similar character. I grew up in a house where we had to tiptoe around his moods and constantly appease his behaviour while ignore our own hurt and upset that he caused. Then when he was in a good mood we’d all be chivvied along by him to ‘cheer up’ and join in. I’m sure my mum thought of these as the ‘happy times’ but they weren’t really as we were still all jumping to his tune. He set the tone, always. Our feelings were meaningless.

This was very much my experience too, and I would be interested to know if this resonates with OP. Where do we learn this behaviour? As @QuentinBunbury has pointed out before, it's endemic in our culture. But there is definitely a precedent for it in my childhood.

Evening everyone! Thank you so much as always for all your comments. I’ve only got a few mins so will try to quickly address the main ‘themes’!

Regarding the pressure he is placing on me for affection and sex, he's said it's not about the physical side, but the need for him to see me make some sort of progress in moving closer to him emotionally (ie saying I want to be with him forever and I love him). I have said I feel like basically what he means is he wants sex to prove it, and I said that in counselling too that I feel objectified and disrespected. He does insist it's not about sex but also says he thinks it might relax me and help us 'unwind,' and that it doesn't need to mean any more than that.

But yes, I feel pressured, and he doesn't care about that anymore because he's so fed up with feeling rejected after the affair (compared to my willingness with the OM). @Alcemeg you're right, I opened my soul to him, and I don't think I can do that for my husband  I absolutely feel like I'm 'messing him around', and he's even asked me to stop with this all and 'release him' if I didn't think it has a chance of working, and I still can't do it...

In terms of the comments around my daughter and being overweight in the future, it wasn't a recent comment and it may have even been when she was a baby or hypothetically before she was born...not sure if that makes it better or worse! I totally understand all of your reactions to that though, and I would absolutely furiously protect her from any aspects of damaging attitudes from him or anyone. Which is one of my concerns about separating, @cavagirl mentioned not having him as a full time father but actually surely it’s better having me there 100% of the time with them, rather than 50% on his own? He is a good dad, and so talking about ‘protecting her’ from him sounds extreme, but just little examples like that and how he used to respond to her tantrums did used to worry me. Thankfully he's completely opened up recently to learning about how toddlers operate and how best to help them with their feelings, which is a huge relief!

Re the walk- it did happen but it was very brief as they were late leaving! I don’t think he was trying to manipulate the situation to be honest, he’d know there’s no point and also would probably be embarrassed to raise anything personal. I think he was just genuinely trying to be friendly on this occasion. 😬

@professorpootle thank you for your thoughts. I agree with what you say about him never being a good candidate for a meaningful relationship and that being impossible to unsee now. Really sad to hear about how your dad used to speak to/about you. I don’t want to minimise my husband' behaviour but he would never ever do that kind of thing to our daughter. I think at worst he would just unintentionally pressure her to get ‘healthy’ which she’d possibly read into depending on her age. I recognise some of what you say about making the most of the good moods, and I caught myself once or twice in the past almost saying to my daughter things along the lines of ‘no, don’t do that right now, daddy’s feeling grumpy’ - something I recognised at the time as a completely awful thing to be pushing onto her and I stopped it as soon as I noticed.

In terms of my own father, he did have a few issues with drinking and being a bit grumpy when he went through some difficult times, but overall he was loving and kind to us all (including my mum), so I’m lucky in that sense that this isn’t some sort of recurring pattern for me!

My husband went out for the early afternoon as opposed to evening so I’m frantically trying to get my daughter to sleep before he returns so I have a chance to speak to my sister!!

Apologies for the whistle stop tour!! Wanted to respond quickly now as wasn't sure if I'd get another chance before my next workday.

@loveyourself2020, hope mediation went well today, thinking of you

Hello again,

I thought your post was very astute ProfessorPootle about his mother also having been the emotional sponge/punchbag. Something he does to women in his life and not men.

Regarding the sex/intimacy, he is saying two contradictory things. That it is not about the physical side and just about the commitment (that you want to be with him forever - I don’t actually have words for this, except it shows the distance between what he is expecting and where you are, plus it seems to me very - not sure of the word - all or nothing!) but also that sex might help you relax and unwind (note how he has manipulated this to frame it as something which will help you! How kind and generous of him to offer to have sex with you to help you, even though you don’t even want to have sex! Such generosity).

The other thing it seems to me, and I am not sure how best to express this, is almost like you don’t have your own thoughts any more or you don’t trust them really. Like whatever you think has a counter from him which invalidates it, or overlays it with expectations, or twists it somehow (I mean, arguing that sex would be for your benefit takes the biscuit). You yourself have got two contrary narratives going on - the one where you know that you don’t love him and cannot be honest, open and intimate, and the other one which is all but, but, but - but it is best for our daughter if we stay together, but he is really trying to be better, but I don’t want to split up the family. And of course it is in his interests to work up the latter and indeed, to some extent also for you to weight the latter more heavily (less disruption to your sense of self).

But it seems to me as an outsider that there is a danger you will end up having sex with someone you really don’t want to because he is not going to leave it alone and your own mind is not clear. He really does need to back off on that one and take no for an answer whilst you work out what you want. Coerced sex is rape and maybe you need to spell that out to him.

Maybe you and your sister can go for a walk if he is back and your DD is asleep.

The other thing to say is that 50/50 is not a given; child arrangements need to be made in the best interests of the child, she is not a property to be divided up.

So he’s not going out this evening when your daughter’s asleep but conveniently in the day when she’s keeping you busy. Called it!

The idea that you can protect kids against shit parents by making them live with them all the time (under the watch of the other parent) really doesn’t stack up. For a start imagine how DD would feel he keeps mentioning her weight even if you do argue with him - now everyone’s arguing about her weight. If you split and he said something on the days he has her, well he’s got you most of the time modelling normal food behaviour and body image, and able to just say “well daddy’s a bit silly”.

*she’s got you

@TheThermalStair

What are the chances he cancels his drinks at the last minute? I’d put a tenner on it.

@helplesshopeless
My husband went out for the early afternoon as opposed to evening so I’m frantically trying to get my daughter to sleep before he returns so I have a chance to speak to my sister!!

Oh so sadly predictable

Cunt

@helplesshopeless
I have been thinking about you. Did you have a chance to talk to you sister? I hope you did. No matter what happens down the line you want to have her in your corner. I went out with my sister and my BIL tonight and that was nice. I really enjoyed it. It feels good being surrounded by that kind of warmth and love in these trying times.

I had the mediation today. It went surprisingly well, although we did not finish it. The mediator decided we come back again once my STBX is settled in his new place (hopefully) and the new job (also hopefully) because certain things like child and suppose support will depend on this. I personally think that he is hiding some money from me. He had some investment and he has only shown a very small amount today. I even said it to him and the mediator that i have doubts about his honesty. But unless I am willing to pay for forensic accountant (which I am not because they are apparently very expensive). I am very disappointed to find out that here were I live, all legal support is very expensive.

To be honest with you, I am not interested in "his" money, I just want him out of the house, so I can sleep in my bed. Have been sleeping on the floor for seven weeks.

Like whatever you think has a counter from him which invalidates it, or overlays it with expectations, or twists it somehow (I mean, arguing that sex would be for your benefit takes the biscuit). You yourself have got two contrary narratives going on - the one where you know that you don’t love him and cannot be honest, open and intimate, and the other one which is all but, but, but...

Absolutely!!! I guess we've discussed everything so many times, over and over again, that I know all of his arguments and positions and what he would say to each point being made. And I do understand a lot of what he's saying about what he needs from me to have a chance of getting over the affair.

There's also still an element of feeling like I need to make sure you all have the full picture and context of everything he says/does, so he's not unfairly judged 😇

But it seems to me as an outsider that there is a danger you will end up having sex with someone you really don’t want to because he is not going to leave it alone and your own mind is not clear.

He can be very convincing and persuasive, at the moment I'm trying to be extra friendly and cuddly to show I'm trying. I understand the concern of how that could lead to sex, and I'm conscious of that, but I don't actually think I could physically do it! I can't even bring myself to properly kiss him, so sex really is out of the question.

If you split and he said something on the days he has her, well he’s got you most of the time modelling normal food behaviour and body image, and able to just say “well daddy’s a bit silly”.

That is true. I suppose I'd be relying on her telling me everything, which might not always be the case as she gets older, but I know I can give her a good foundation and strong relationship with me so I guess that's all I can hope for.

Re him going out earlier (and sorry for being annoying here in defending him as normal!), he really was not doing anything intentional there. He was just being flexible with his friend (who needed to be be back earlier than originally planned as he has a young baby).

I did speak to my sister, and I wish I hadn't to be honest  she is very sensitive and really feels things on behalf of others, and as soon as I mentioned the term verbal abuse she started crying and so I didn't carry on. So she knows the basics of the position, and is now in turmoil over it on my behalf. It's just made things a bit awkward!

@loveyourself2020 so glad to hear mediation went reasonably well must be a weight off your shoulders! And it is a huge positive that he will be leaving your home, fingers crossed that happens ASAP, I cannot believe you've been sleeping on the floor for 7 weeks