The 'all men watch porn' mentality

[mag2305]

I've been looking for support in different places recently as my husband is battling a porn addiction. I've looked at various support groups, articles, videos, etc, and also, forum threads like on Mumsnet. Everyone has their own experiences and opinions on porn, fair enough. But I'm also amazed by the number of women who are adament that they're 'totally OK with it'... It's normal'. Of course, women may enjoy porn themselves whilst in a relationship, although through my research I know it's a lot less than men and I wonder if women get addicted in the numbers that men do.

My experience... I've been with my husband for 4 years. His porn addiction goes back to his teenage years. Alongside this, he has also had depression and anxiety for many years so was vulnerable to something like porn addiction. I only found out about his porn use half way into our relationship. For him, when it's bad, it's been frequent watching at times, daily. Also at times when he's particularly low. He's lied about it over and over again but has also had more honest times where he's said what a battle it is in his mind. From my perspective, it's warped his mind. He looks at other women a lot as we walk/drive along and has said he gets arousing thoughts. If he doesn't watch porn, he feels compelled to masturbate. Maybe this is OK in moderation but again, it's been frequent, and he's also masturbated to thoughts of our female friends and his exs. OK, this is a fantasy type thing but added to the porn, it's not a great situation.

This has had such a damaging impact on our marriage. I wonder how many other people could say the same? Are some women just in denial that porn, etc isn't a problem?

Morally, my personal position is that I hate it. It's a horrible industry with many sad stories behind the scenes. Degrades both women and men.
And strangely enough, my husband hates a lot of it too but doesn't allow himself to think about it in that way. Is it entertainment or a corruption of mind, body and soul? As a mum to a little boy, I would hate to think of him watching porn in his early teens and getting hooked into it. Thinking that it's all normal stuff and that's what real sex is like.

I don't really know where I'm going with this post but I suppose I'm just surprised by the number of women who are 'OK with it'.

According to one survey 75% of men watch porn regularly and 40% watch it everyday.

Porn has always existed but it has never been as available or as extreme as it is today. That’s the difference.

@baileys6904
Thanks for your sarcasm but no , I’m not concerned for you , but rather for the people who you claim you ‘ psychology degrees ‘ show no problem with porn

You state
‘Porn has been around centuries in one way or another and if the case all viewers turned into sex crazed monsters incapable of being responsible for their own behaviour, we would live in a shitter world than we are now.’

No your completely wrong , porn have NEVER been available on the scale , at the availability and level of hardcore at the click of a button 24/7 to ANY society EVER
I would have thought those very basic things about the Miriam of ways in which society has changed you’d at least understand . Wow you sound really ill informed for someone who claims ANY study of human behaviour to be honest
To sit there and compare naughty cave paintings or playboy mags of the 50s to the situation we have today is disingenuous in the very least and pretty mysogynistic to deny how women are being portrayed anc what they are dealing with now

@baileys6904 and while your quick to ask another how many sex workers they have dealt with I can tell you I have worked closely with many and there ARE HUGE issues with the industry .

No your completely wrong , porn have NEVER been available on the scale , at the availability and level of hardcore at the click of a button 24/7 to ANY society EVER

Agree. What a ridiculous comment by the PP.

Even in my lifetime (I'm mid forties) porn has gone from top less mags in the newsagents to videos of women being slapped and choked. One actress in Japan died during filming because she effectively drowned in semen . And so many actresses speak out about the harm done to them in filming.

This never happened when porn was cave art, paintings or erotic literature. Its so disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

For anyone on the fence, can I suggest watching "Hot girls wanted" on netflix

Shhhh don't ruin the 'empowerment' fantasy, how will the porn supporters achieve cool girl status if they have to face reality?

@QuentinBunbury

No your completely wrong , porn have NEVER been available on the scale , at the availability and level of hardcore at the click of a button 24/7 to ANY society EVER

Agree. What a ridiculous comment by the PP.

Even in my lifetime (I'm mid forties) porn has gone from top less mags in the newsagents to videos of women being slapped and choked. One actress in Japan died during filming because she effectively drowned in semen . And so many actresses speak out about the harm done to them in filming.

This never happened when porn was cave art, paintings or erotic literature. Its so disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

For anyone on the fence, can I suggest watching "Hot girls wanted" on netflix

And even more worrying when the person claims to have two psychology degrees . @baileys6904 , you say this wasn’t part of your studies but IMO you honestly owe it to yourself and anyone else you talk to about gender issues to get educated about these things

You can’t stop someone masturbating or thinking! I do think erotica and sex are part of being human, but the porn industry is very problematic. Are you saying no porn is acceptable in your marriage? I guess he clearly does think it’s ok so would be giving up something that’s quite big for him just because his wife says so. Moral issues aside, if he went vegan and told you to go vegan what would you think? That’s probably what it feels like to him, which makes it easier to lie about as he feels he’s the reasonable one.

@timeisnotaline

You can’t stop someone masturbating or thinking! I do think erotica and sex are part of being human, but the porn industry is very problematic. Are you saying no porn is acceptable in your marriage? I guess he clearly does think it’s ok so would be giving up something that’s quite big for him just because his wife says so. Moral issues aside, if he went vegan and told you to go vegan what would you think? That’s probably what it feels like to him, which makes it easier to lie about as he feels he’s the reasonable one.

I don’t see anyone here saying that masturbating or thinking is a problem but that’s a far cry from the porn industry of today I fail to see how in an industry that has a reputation for the abuse of women and girls the moral issues can just be swept aside . Perhaps for many men and some women that’s fine but more and more women now are saying no . I won’t be with a man who is indifferent to the abuses or suffering of women and girls ‘ or indifferent to the gender issues inherent in this mysogynistic industry Supporters like to point to amateur porn as an example of porn free of these grotty connections but at the end of the day it’s very very hard to know one is not watching a woman who’s images are posted without her consent or much much worse or that the sites you support are not hosting that content. The major problem being that MOST MEN DONT even care and will just support these sites regardless If a woman says she doesn’t want to be with a man who doesn’t give a shot about these abuses then that is entirely reasonable I’m not a vegan but Id Absolutely say the same about a vegan who felt passionately about not being with a meat eater. It’s their right However , women I would say have even more reason to be worried about men’s complacency about supporting an industry with a history of abuse against women and girls . WE ARE women and girls . We seek to be treated with respect and to have our daughters sisters and ourselves treated with respect. Why would we want to be with a man who show the exact Opposite values in what he does . These women are not just pixels, they are real people . That’s a far cry from your simplification of ‘ I don’t like it so you can’t do it ‘

@IAmFleshIAmBone

Shhhh don't ruin the 'empowerment' fantasy, how will the porn supporters achieve cool girl status if they have to face reality?

!!!!!!!

@Washingtofold it really feels from the ops comments that she is uncomfortable with him masturbating.
I agree porn is very problematic, I’m not comfortable with it at all. I don’t think my dh watches it. I’m just trying to say that if he doesn’t feel it’s morally wrong, just agrees his usage is a bit excessive, he’s not going to come on board with quitting completely. He’ll say no or lie about it, whcih is his current approach. That won’t change unless he wants it to and he doesn’t feel strongly enough that he should stop. He’s just trying to placate his partner.

@timeisnotaline yes I agree he will likely lie
And yes agree porn today is hugely problematic
OP do you have a problem with him masturbating without using porn ?

@Wash

@Washingtofold and @timeisnotaline
I guess there are grey areas in this. No I'm not against my husband masturbating. Although I really don't like the thought of him thinking about his ex, albeit someone who he knows nothing about now and hasn't seen in 5 years and doesn't have photos of, only memories. Just makes me feel insecure though. If it was me, I would just feel weird doing that. However, I know I can't control his imagination when his masturbating so maybe that's something I will just have to accept. Plus, I'm heavily pregnant and sex isn't exactly on my agenda right now and I appreciate he will still have a sex drive. But I'm just talking here about masturbation.

The porn thing is different. I see that as something that takes over, and my husband, plus many other men, get hooked into. Something imaginative or fantasy may spontaneously come into his mind and he may masturbate thinking about it. With porn, it's knowingly choosing a female or scene to watch. Maybe the same female he's watched before. It feels like a choice, like cheating. OK, it's not exactly the same, I know. BUT, from the partners side I think those similar feelings of hurt are still there.

I've had our wedding vows playing round in my mind a lot recently, 'forsaking all others as long as we both shall live'. In my book, this includes porn.

Then there's the moral perspective. I agree with all the pps who are against porn and the reasons you have stated. Someone said in a pp, how would you feel if your child went into the porn industry? I think that question alone is very thought provoking. As a parent, I would feel scared for them, maybe confused and sad. That's how I feel about people in the porn industry. We don't 100% know what we're watching... is it consensual? Underage? Drugs involved? Blackmail? Abuse? Mental health? For me, I see vulnerable people.
I watched a documentary about a man who got into porn after his little boy died of SIDS. He was in such a bad way, so shocked, he wanted to punish himself through the grief which took him into the porn industry.
It's like people who turn to heavy and addictive use of drink and drugs... Why are they in that position, what got them into that.

The crazy thing is, my husband sees all that! He actually hates all the nastiness of the porn industry as a whole but he's hooked into it, it's habitual. He's managed over many years to desensitise himself to the nasty side of it even though he hates it. Like a smoker not wanting lung cancer blocking that out of their mind.

On the flip side, my husband can be incredibly protective, sensitive and compassionate in so many ways. He's become a counsellor for goodness sake!! It just doesn't add up. That's also why I'm so angry at him. It's not just me and our family. He's a better person than porn. If he can get this addiction under control, one of the most positive things he could do with it, is to help others in similar situations.

It's all so frustrating!!!!

Sorry for such a long post. I get carried away with pouring out my mind.

According yo Oftcom reported in the Guardian today 50%men and 15% women do, higher when younger people are analysed.

I hate it I am so damaged by it after my ex had an addiction ten years ago that I have ptsd.

I don't know if anyone else follows Russell Brand, but I've found his videos on porn addiction really useful and interesting. He doesn't talk about whether it's morally right or wrong, he talks about the use and addiction of it. And as he appears to have come out the other side from many addictions, I guess he speaks from a place of knowing what it's like.

I think as with all things in life there are shades of grey and good points on both sides of the argument. There is so much I don't agree with in regards to the porn industry and I feel like so much more should be done to regulate what is made available and who it is available to (ie, I find it unacceptable that it's so easy for children to access porn). However, I do watch porn semi regularly (if I masturbate 3 times a week, maybe one of those times I'll watch porn). I have a specific criteria for what I watch and it's generally couples with their own channel that they upload to and interact with in a similar way to how YouTube creators do with their channels. The porn I watch portrays very normal "vanilla" sex.

Watching porn has had no ill effects on my sex life or libido, I don't find myself watching more extreme porn or wanting more extreme sex. I am very happy with my sex life, my attitude towards sex and my sexual boundaries.

My DP also watches porn, however, he masturbates less often than I do. From what he's told me, the porn he watches is similar to what I watch and I believe him as it is reflected in the sex we have. He has never once tried to choke, slap or otherwise cause me pain during sex, he never calls me horrible names during sex and he is a very generous and gentle lover. He also has no interest in anal etc. Our sex life is regular and fulfilling regardless of the fact we both watch porn.

On the other hand I have been with people in the past who were not good in bed and I do think over consumption of extreme porn was probably the reason. One boyfriend had erectile dysfunction from age 23 with no medical explanation and he was very selfish in bed. Another wanted to do a lot of the typical more extreme acts associated with porn. I left both of them. OP's husband sounds like no prize in general and I don't think it can all be blamed on the porn. The staring at women for example is just gross regardless of whether or not he watches porn. The man just clearly has no control when it comes to his sexual desire.

However, I do find it odd OP that you are wondering how to tackle his thoughts during masturbation. It would be very controlling to expect him not to masturbate at all and I feel really strongly that a romantic partner should have no say over our private thoughts. Our behaviour yes, but not our thoughts. It's really unpleasant that he has been fantasising about your friend but you shouldn't even know that he did that. He sounds very sleazy in general though and if I were in your shoes I wouldn't put up with it. I also wouldn't have married a man who partakes in activities which totally go against my beliefs.

Basically I think you are entitled to your views and boundaries and so is everyone else. I personally am ok with a partner watching a bit of porn as long as it doesn't take over their life and negatively affect our sex life. Your husband crosses so many of your boundaries so I think he's just an unsuitable partner for you. Watching porn ≠ a porn sick pervert who is only interested in extreme, degrading sex. However I concede that there are many issues with the porn industry and that too much extreme porn can have negative effects on a person.

@DazzlingHaze I'll just clarify, that he doesn't stare at other women. I think pps elaborated on what I actually meant. Or maybe I just didn't explain it right. If we're driving along for example, I might see him glance at an attractive lady walking along and he might think, nice legs. Now, I don't love that but I don't think that makes him sleazy. I think it's somewhat just human nature. But the porn addiction has made me nervous with his behaviour I guess.

And I wouldn't actually use the word sleazy to describe him. He's just been extremely stupid. He's an idiot. But not sleazy. If you were to read through all my comments, this isn't a black and white situation.

@baileys6904 @DazzlingHaze @Washingtofold

I think as with all things in life there are shades of grey and good points on both sides of the argument. No there aren’t good ‘points’ in porn. Anyone who thinks this is just a choice with no weight on one side or the other, has not looked at the hard cold facts or the evidence.

For example @baileys argues that we’ve had porn for centuries with ‘no problems’. We are a cultures that are deeply misogynistic, where rape and sexual harassment is far too common, where sexual abuse still happens even of children. How is that ‘no problems’ with those more vulnerable and those abusing their power sexually?

There actually is a link with porn and domestic abuse. Many, many women have reported that they are forced to comply with demands that their husbands/abusers have seen in the porn industry or photographed etc without their consent. Baileys you cherry pick your evidence which looked at the very widespread porn use. No I don’t think every man who watches porn becomes violent. However we still have a misogynistic culture which even here in mumsnet, women defending the use of porn in their husbands or men. It creates a bed of acceptance for something which is morally unacceptable.

There is a lot of evidence, as me and others have pointed to, which shows that porn damages the brain, particularly in teenagers. There is no evidence that porn is good or useful or helpful. Comic style porn and depictions of girls as sexual objects such as in anime and hentai is not healthy for a teenage boy to learn to get his kicks from.

I don’t always check where my trainers or clothes come from. That’s on me. However I should as I morally cannot defend that children used in terrible conditions made them.

Same with porn, many people and men watch it. But surely no one could ever defend it? And unfortunately you are also watching the people being abused, which is pretty horrific when you think about it. And that includes all the ‘good’ porn or consensual couples - that’s no answer. There are too many cases of domestic coercion and violence for us to ever know whether people have fully consented to being filmed.

And on the other side. Honestly we have so much visual media with films and pictures of sexy men and women - we surely do not need to have to have pornography and all of it’s terrible exploitation and harm in order to get our rocks off?! Are we so privileged that we just don’t care?

I feel like your writing about my partner. Has your husband tried antidepressants? X

@lovescaca oh really, how have things been with your other half?

My husband was put on anti depressants in 2019 which he took up until a year ago but he said they didn't have much effect on his mood so stopped them.
It could be something to consider again though. He does suffer with depression and anxiety which has a knock on effect to the porn addiction.

Just wanted to give my two cents, as there seems to be quite a lot of toxicity on this post.

Firstly, I'm sorry you're going through a difficult time OP, regardless of the good/bad porn argument, someone you love is breaking your trust and doing something that is hurting you. It's up to you, and you alone in my opinion, to decide where you draw the line and how much it is hurting you to stay in a relationship with behaviour that is upsetting or uncomfortable.

Secondly, the porn industry has many exploitative areas to it, as do many others. There are many websites with stricter guidelines and ways to view 'ethical' porn. I do watch occasionally porn, I don't however eat animals, as I don't think it's particularly moral, but I don't press judgment on others who don't follow that same line of thought. There will always be shortcomings in people, I don't think shaming anyone, particularly women, online is the best way for anyone to treat this subject.

Thirdly, equating watching porn to an affair is a far jump. I enjoy rom coms, but they don't make me want to start an emotional affair any more than porn makes me want to start a physical one. That doesn't mean people who watch porn don't have affairs, it just means people who eat birthday cake also have affairs, but I'm still going to buy cake.

Lastly, it sounds like there are a lot of issues going on within your relationship OP and I really hope you find the solutions to them. I can understand your frustration at others not being upset by porn or glances at other women etc. when you are experiencing such a difficult time directly because of it. I'd remember in those situations, there are probably lots of things in your relationship you don't worry twice about that could be tearing another relationship apart and it's hard to understand the intensity unless you're going through it. You are 100% within your own right to draw the line of what is and isn't okay wherever you want to and if the line is crossed, the fact the line is crossed should be the biggest issue, regardless of what others think about where it was drawn.

@l0ndon, another really good post and as I said previously, the OP is having a shocker of a time and really does have the right to decide on her boundaries and stick to them, no matter what opinions people have. Humanity isn't a one size fits all.

@rejoiningperson you have your opinion, I have mine. However in some ways you're arguing against your own point. People state porn hasn't been around for years or at least to the same extent or as available as now ( true) and yet historically as woman we have been oppressed and degraded and basically treated as lesser people, yet slowly become more empowered and more an equal in recent times (true). So.... More equality at a time when porn is more accessible....
Now even I don't think there's a causal relation ship between the two, but at a time where many women are making a fortune from Only fans and somehow we think women watching 50 shades is acceptable, I do think it points to individuals rather than genre. But what do I know lol

@baileys6904 well it’s like having opinions over whether domestic abuse is bad. And opinions without evidence such as yours aren’t worth anything as you are just defending the indefensible. I wonder why? Perhaps you could answer... being a psychologist.

@London Show me the evidence that porn does not ever cause any harm and has no exploitation. If you show me that I’ll rethink.

Anyone show me the evidence that even ‘ethical’ porn is 100% free from exploitation. We have no way of knowing do we, that’s the problem. Sex can be so easily used in power dynamics, in abuse and exploitation. The overwhelming majority do not seek out ‘ethical’ porn either. Probably about 99.9%! People don’t care I think which is the heart of the problem.

Much as I think we should treat animals with care and respect. There is a difference as some people do not think that eating animals is wrong, me included.

However we ALL agree that human beings should not be exploited and harmed. And we can ALL agree that we should not watch human beings being exploited and harmed.

And calling caring about others and a moral code ‘toxic’ is so wrong I don’t even know where to start!