We never married

[Pearlsawinger]

DP and I have been together 10 years and have 2 DCs.
I became unexpectedly pregnant with DC1, just as we were discussing marriage, so we postponed our plans for when DC1 was a little older.
I then had PND, there was a huge family argument and we delayed getting married again.
Then we needed to spend a lot of money on construction work on the house and again, any wedding was delayed.
After this, I discovered I had endometriosis and told that it would be affecting my fertility; we both wanted another child and sibling for DC1 so decided to have another baby sooner rather than later.
As marriage has always been a plan, both DCs have DPs surname, as I was going to take it too, but obviously, it hasn't happened. I hate having a different name to my DCs, I get very upset about it.
DP is now saying that there is "no point" in marriage. DC2 is now 3 years old and h3 says that it wouldn't make any difference now and that provided we have joint life insurance, joint finances etc, we're covered if something happens to the other one.

I'm not IN love with him anymore and find myself wondering if I would really want to marry him anyway... but I know that marriage and the security of marriage is still important to me. I am also concerned that, as I've worked part-time whilst both DCs were very young, it has impacted my pension and I'll never have any rights to claim some of his due to lack of marriage. He is from an affluent family, I am from a poor family and I can see that, if we end up separating later on, I'll be quite poor when I retire whilst he will have a good pension and be in a good financial position from his inheritance etc. I'm wondering whether to cut my losses now?

What should I do?

@puzzledobserver I think you see the situation very clearly.

Being "in love" does come and go.

However him not pulling his weight, being selfish and not being prepared to make you financially secure are all deal breakers.

He will actually have more of a relationship with the DC if you split as he'll have to step up and parent them in his time.

The more you explain the more I don't understand why you are conflicted - he's a man child, the resentment of his behaviour will eat you alive once you return to work full time.

@Pearlsawinger

The reason I'm concerned about how me working FT affects him is because that subsequently affects me. Getting him to take on 50% of the mental load consistently isn't going to happen, no matter how many times it's discussed. We've been there, tried it, doesn't happen.

Hence the thread.
I'm working out if I've enough justification to leave him in the circumstances we're in, in balance against splitting the family unit and hurting the DCs.

Just leave him because I would wager he will leave you before too long. He will know you aren’t in love with him and it’s likely reciprocated because, to be honest, why wouldn’t it be and it explains his refusal to marry you. Why would he want to protect you financially in your retirement when he doesn’t think enough of you to marry you? Just leave him now.

@Pearlsawinger

The reason I'm concerned about how me working FT affects him is because that subsequently affects me. Getting him to take on 50% of the mental load consistently isn't going to happen, no matter how many times it's discussed. We've been there, tried it, doesn't happen.

Hence the thread.
I'm working out if I've enough justification to leave him in the circumstances we're in, in balance against splitting the family unit and hurting the DCs.

But you're missing the other trajectory from 'splitting the family unit and hurting the DC's and that's showing them a pattern of a fundamentally sexist relationship with unequal power where one person's work is not valued and thus unworthy of the other partner, who holds the bulk of the financial cards. And again, of your facing penury in old age or any time because this person can leave you at any time with perhaps your share of the house and that's it, can even lawyer up to get 50/50, outsource it and not have to pay child maintenance.

He won't marry you and he won't take on his fair share of the lifework because in his eyes, these are women's lot and he, the Mighty Peen, is more important than that; hence, too, his 'bear with a sore head' persona when he's stressed - diddums, how immature of him.

Have you considered that the reason you're not 'in love' with him is because he doesn't respect you as an equal? Because he doesn't. Hence, why he will never do his share of lifework and parenting, won't get married, you feel you can't work FT (you can't afford NOT to work FT) because he won't cope.

Is that the type of relationship you want to show your kids, because that can be far more hurtful than parents who co-parent separately?

At any rate, he can end things at any time, same as you, except as it stands now, you're be far more screwed than he financially.

“As you have been living as husband and wife for that amount of time there are certain rights in place now”

Not RTFT but if OP is in England, this is incorrect.

He leaves or you split and he'll have to bloody cope when he was contact. The bonus is that you won't have to deal with his immature mood because he has be a full adult and father.

I'm working out if I've enough justification to leave him in the circumstances we're in, in balance against splitting the family unit and hurting the DCs.

If you want to stay because of the children then tell him that's why you're staying with him. Don't let him go on with the impression that he has a nice little family unit when he hasn't. You could perhaps agree to go on as friends raising your children or he may decide he'd rather find someone who could love him. Indeed you could both go on to find somebody else perhaps.

My daughter and her partner are not married, they have two boys, aged 15 and 11,my grandsons, and the same as you, the boys have their Dads surname.. My daughter and partner have been together, very happily,for about 17 years or so, I have never really asked her and her partner about any marriage plans, But I would assume that they think and discuss things about the future and all things.

Daughter and partner both work full time, and they are both 40 plus is age.

Agree, working FT won’t mean he does more of the parenting or domestic work, many fathers don’t. But you’d still be much better off working FT.

It’s indeed v hard at times working FT and doing way more than a fair share of the work at home. But IME not anywhere near as hard as losing earnings and pension in the (likely) event of a split.

Having a problem DP/H - and it sounds like yours is - is hard every which way.

[quote Pearlsawinger]@puzzledobserver I think you see the situation very clearly.[/quote]
That makes me sad.

Mumsnet will tell you that your DH is a mug. Inheritances (certainly from a womans viewpoint) should be seen as yours and not joint.

I can live with that. DH and I share an attitude towards marriage which I guess many would consider old-fashioned. Once we decided we wanted to commit to each other, we set a date for our wedding. We didn’t live together before we were married. The key thing here is that it was what we both wanted. We have no children, so the OP’s situation has not arisen. But we have both (at different ones) taken time out to retrain and been supported by the other. When I eventually inherit (assuming it doesn’t all get swallowed up in care fees) that will also be family money.

Well if splitting is really on the cards, then you would be best to start working full time as soon as possible, even if you dont plan to split immediately. Apart from anything else, if your dcs are going to have to get used to living in a new house without daddy in it, visiting him and him going from someone they just play with now and then to doing all the looking after of them for a few days at a time, which is a massive upheaval for kids - it would be best if being in childcare all day / before and after school clubs isn't a new thing for them, that they are already settled in childcare when you put them through the next change.

Plus it might help you build a leaving fund.

If you decide to stay for the kids, marriage would be my "cost", because trying to start from scratch in 15+ years time will be shitty if you dont have a claim to any assets you've helped him gain by providing the childcare and domestic labour to allow him to save and build his career and pension.

1for ....cool?

@KoalaOok

You don't want to discuss it but it is a major part of why I think you are being unreasonable unfortunately. You chose with your eyes open to take the risk and unfortunately it hasn't paid off.

Well that’s not strictly true is it? It’s paid off in terms of a wonderful relationship with her children, which seems to be a major part of why she worked part time. I did the same. I have a fantastic relationship with my daughter, and I’m pretty much the only mum I know who doesn’t want to get rid of their kids at the first opportunity.

I can’t see how it hasn’t paid off for OP? She got what she wanted out of not working full time. She won.

@Osirus If she has ‘won’ then what’s the thread all about? Why is she now worried about her and get children being financially dependent on someone else who could screw them over any time and who she doesn’t even love? Doesn’t sound a lot like winning to me! You do know that plenty of working parents have wonderful relationships with their children too, right?

There is much more to being a good parent than just physically spending as much time velcroed to your child as possible. I personally believe that providing material security for your children is an essential part of being a good and responsible parent. A lot of women who have chosen to stay at home are so busy crowing about their superior parenting choices that they fail to acknowledge they are entirely dependent on someone else to ensure their children are fed. So odd.

As others have said please make sure all your assets are in joint names. You don't need to be married to be named on his pension as the beneficiary in the event that you live longer. It is really important that you are listed as the beneficiary with the pension company as if you are not married then you wont benefit automatically. Then make sure he has a Will in your favour. Please make sure this is done as soon as you can as nobody knows what may happen.

@HeadWestSoon is right:

It is really important that you are listed as the beneficiary with the pension company as if you are not married then you wont benefit automatically. Then make sure he has a Will in your favour. Please make sure this is done as soon as you can as nobody knows what may happen.

I asked the OP yesterday the following in response to the emboldened comment she'd made previously:

"it wouldn't make any difference now and that provided we have joint life insurance, joint finances etc, we're covered if something happens to the other one.

Do you actually have joint life insurance, joint finances etc? Have you seen them and understood their respective benefits?

Have you both made wills?"

At the moment, the way things stand, she could be relying on what he is telling her - I'd want to see proof from him of the entire financial situation - always bearing in mind, of course, that wills, beneficiaries of policies, etc can still be altered as other posters have been at pains to point out.

@HeadWestSoon

As others have said please make sure all your assets are in joint names. You don't need to be married to be named on his pension as the beneficiary in the event that you live longer. It is really important that you are listed as the beneficiary with the pension company as if you are not married then you wont benefit automatically. Then make sure he has a Will in your favour. Please make sure this is done as soon as you can as nobody knows what may happen.

The problem is, he could change all of that whenever he wanted, and she'd never know until it was too late.

@osirus how the hell has she won? She doesn't even have any money to look after her children. She's dependant on a man who could leave her at any time and she doesn't even love him. I think that's the farthest you can be from winning.

I can’t see how it hasn’t paid off for OP? She got what she wanted out of not working full time. She won.

How on earth has she "won"?

She's now fully dependent on a man she doesn't love. She has no income of her own, and no way of supporting herself or her children in the event of a break-up or his death. He could kick her out tomorrow and she'd have nothing.

I can’t see how it hasn’t paid off for OP? She got what she wanted out of not working full time. She won.

Remind me, this is 2021?

[quote Candyfloss99]@osirus how the hell has she won? She doesn't even have any money to look after her children. She's dependant on a man who could leave her at any time and she doesn't even love him. I think that's the farthest you can be from winning.[/quote]
She has the life she chose. She chose to go part time to have extra family time with the children. To do that her partner has supported her for those years.

There's no sign that he wants to leave only that he doesn't see the point in marriage just now as things are OK. Only things aren't OK are they she wants to leave but won't due to how it would affect her lifestyle (and the children). She wants the marriage simply to make herself financially better off when she does get around to leaving rather than because she wants to spend her life with him. Completely mercenary.

It's not him that's looking to leave its her.

What she has 'won' is the opportunity to spend more time with her children. That comes at a cost, one she accepted at the time, part time reduced pension etc. When she says that they've constantly put off marriage I suspect that what they've been putting of is the 'wedding', doesn't take long or cost much to get married, having a 'wedding' can be more expensive and take more organising.

Given her 'I'm not IN love with him anymore and find myself wondering if I would really want to marry him anyway*' I don't see why he would want to marry her. Maybe he's aware of her feelings (or lack thereof).

Looking after small children is hard and valuable work, no matter who does it. I hate this attitude that if a parent does it they are lazy and opting out. of their responsibility to earn money. Good quality child care is expensive. Are some people honestly saying that caring for one's own small children is worthless and lazy?

@Inthesameboatatmo

Speak to lawyer As you have been living as husband and wife for that amount of time there are certain rights in place now Good luck

Such as?

If the OP is in England or Wales?

There is no such thing as ‘living together as husband and wife’. You are either married or you are not.

@endofthelinefinally

Looking after small children is hard and valuable work, no matter who does it. I hate this attitude that if a parent does it they are lazy and opting out. of their responsibility to earn money. Good quality child care is expensive. Are some people honestly saying that caring for one's own small children is worthless and lazy?

Unlike OP many chose to outsource childcare so they can continue their career. Creche/nursery/playschool are fine but some like being mum (or dad) and looking after the children at home then that's fine if its the family setup you want. There's a lot to be said for not needing after school etc. Stay at home mums or stay at home dads aren't necessarily lazy sods, just have a different way of looking at life.

Remember on MN planning the divorce starts at the same time (or before) planning the marriage.

@endofthelinefinally Unfortunately, it is common soap-box territory on MN to not value the role of the Mother in looking after children who are under 5.

Many women have jumped on the patriachal, capitalist bandwagon much to the delight of the men at the top. Many brainwashed women here who will outwardly attack women for choosing to be with their children.

The problem isnt the choices women make, but society's lack of value for the role that women play in pregnancy, breastfeeding and Mothering young children.

This has left me in a vulnerable position as many will now hound on me here to remind me, but through choice.

My problem is what I decide to do next, now that my children are what I deem, old enough, for me to return to FT work.