We never married

[Pearlsawinger]

DP and I have been together 10 years and have 2 DCs.
I became unexpectedly pregnant with DC1, just as we were discussing marriage, so we postponed our plans for when DC1 was a little older.
I then had PND, there was a huge family argument and we delayed getting married again.
Then we needed to spend a lot of money on construction work on the house and again, any wedding was delayed.
After this, I discovered I had endometriosis and told that it would be affecting my fertility; we both wanted another child and sibling for DC1 so decided to have another baby sooner rather than later.
As marriage has always been a plan, both DCs have DPs surname, as I was going to take it too, but obviously, it hasn't happened. I hate having a different name to my DCs, I get very upset about it.
DP is now saying that there is "no point" in marriage. DC2 is now 3 years old and h3 says that it wouldn't make any difference now and that provided we have joint life insurance, joint finances etc, we're covered if something happens to the other one.

I'm not IN love with him anymore and find myself wondering if I would really want to marry him anyway... but I know that marriage and the security of marriage is still important to me. I am also concerned that, as I've worked part-time whilst both DCs were very young, it has impacted my pension and I'll never have any rights to claim some of his due to lack of marriage. He is from an affluent family, I am from a poor family and I can see that, if we end up separating later on, I'll be quite poor when I retire whilst he will have a good pension and be in a good financial position from his inheritance etc. I'm wondering whether to cut my losses now?

What should I do?

@Eddielzzard

I agree with Xoxoxoxoxoxox. He's getting a very good deal here, she's doing all the sacrificing of career, childcare, grunt work and getting none of the benefits.

She chose to 'sacrifice her career' for some its important to spend more time being mum than being a career woman. So while he has benefited so has she in that she has had the lifestyle she chose.

They originally intended to get married but kept putting it off for whatever reason and now 10 years have gone by. He's not a monster, it doesn't sound like he's intending to desert her and the kids, he's just a bit 'meh whats the point now'.

I think if she wants to marry she needs to sit down with him and talk about. However after this time she really ought to wait to make sure she does want to spend her life with him. If she doesn't want to spend her life with him it would be an incredibly mercenary thing to do to marry with the sole intention on making her self better off. Agreeing to marry, even at this stage, is a mutual sign that you want to stay together.

Anyone who has a child while unmarried, and anyone who gives that child their father’s surname should be made to read this thread.

OP, I think you understand that marriage would provide you (and your children) with more protection than you have now. It appears your partner doesn’t realise that.

You need to consider if you still want to marry him, as things stand.

If so, explain the benefits that marriage offers you and the children (and him).

If not, consider changing your name by deed poll. And talk to your DP about adding your name to the children’s names. Would he be willing to do that rather than marriage?

The protection of marriage and having the same name are two different issues.

@Inthesameboatatmo

Speak to lawyer As you have been living as husband and wife for that amount of time there are certain rights in place now Good luck

This is so often said but in many places (including England) it is not correct.

MiddayMadDog this is where I would criticise the OPs choice to work part time if I was allowed to.

I think anyone not married who wants to rely financially on someone else needs more than trust unfortunately.

@Pearlsawinger

Has he said absolutely not or just no point as he thinks it would be one more thing to stress about?

You obviously know him very well.
I would work on keeping him sweet by doing some things he loves.
Then tell him how much it would mean to you. Have the DC help if they're old enough.

Then go the the registry and get married. Make it easy for him to say yes.

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

*Speak to lawyer As you have been living as husband and wife for that amount of time there are certain rights in place now Good luck*

Honestly when will people LEARN that you have no rights whatsoever if you are not married and there is no such thing as a common law wife!!!! If its not in your name you won't get to share any of it other than CMA if you are lucky.
A friend of mine had a long term partner who died and they got nothing. The homes were in the partners name and the family swooped in and chucked them out. All of our mutual friends have been getting married so it doesn't happen to them too.
People really need to wise up about this. Sod the big expensive wedding you should have done a cheap two witnesses wedding in a registry office right at the beginning. You have No rights at all.

Getting married for financial reasons is very, very sensible. In fact, its pretty much the only reason to marry. See above. You can have love (and the big party with all your mates) without being married, after all. Women are constantly berated on here for not getting married, given the financial benefits. Marriage is actually a legal financial arrangement, not a love contract. Yet here OP is berated for wanting to marry for the financial benefits!

The only reason for him to refuse marriage is because he wants retain all the benefits of staying married without having to share the family assets if they split. And that makes him the bad guy here, not her.

@KoalaOok

MiddayMadDog this is where I would criticise the OPs choice to work part time if I was allowed to.

I think anyone not married who wants to rely financially on someone else needs more than trust unfortunately.

But she doesn't want to hear that, or that it's a bad idea to carry on this way even now because he can leave at any time. And if she's feeling this desultory about the relationship, why is it beyond the bounds the possibility that he is, too? He may also have seen a solicitor, or been advised by his family, not to marry her. He's not stupid, none of these people are. They know there's no such things as common law or rights of cohabitation and have a string of excuses. But then, their partner enables all this.

Every single week, almost every day, these threads come up.

[quote RantyAnty]@Pearlsawinger

Has he said absolutely not or just no point as he thinks it would be one more thing to stress about?

You obviously know him very well.
I would work on keeping him sweet by doing some things he loves.
Then tell him how much it would mean to you. Have the DC help if they're old enough.

Then go the the registry and get married. Make it easy for him to say yes.[/quote]
FFS. How pitiful and sexist, the pick me dance to manipulate someone into marrying you rather than being a responsible adult and standing on your own two feet . She doesn't love him! So chances are, he might be feeling the same.

This is an absolutely ridiculous argument.

Of course it's not. It's very logical. Too many people don't think things through and are swept up in the emotions of children and a relationship.

You are talking like they are two separate autonomous people making decisions about their separate autonomous lives. They are in a partnership, choosing to have children together and raise a family, with an agreed verbal understanding that they would get married.

Well, basing your entire financial future on a "verbal understanding" is a huge risk to take. OP took the risk and it didn't pay off.

OP has been clear that the decisions she made were in that context, and were to benefit the family, and clearly have benefited her partner. These were decisions made as a family unit.

Were they? Or did OP do what many women do, which is choose to take time out from work to raise her children - it's funny how you never see an unmarried man going part-time once children come along.

And most people trust their partners when they make agreements. We all trust out partners everytime they say they are going out that they are not out having unprotected sex with other people. Relationships work on trust. OP trusted him. She made decisions believing they were getting married and she would have protection. Blaming her because he has turned out to be untrustworthy is utterly unjust.

Why shouldn't she take responsibility for her actions? Basing your entire life on the verbal promises of someone else is silly, no matter how much you love them. That's not to say "you have to get married" but be sensible. If you don't have that form of protection, then don't take time out of the workplace and give up your financial independence. Men don't do it, so why are women so keen to make themselves reliant on someone else? I don't get it.

The argument, well she didn't have to, if applied widely means absolutely no-one has any obligation to keep any promises or agreements they made and more fool anyone who trusts absolutely anyone else on this planet.

Well, nobody does have any such obligation, do they? If you choose to have children without the legal protection of marriage in place, then you need to protect your own interests. Nobody else will do it for you.

Getting married for financial reasons is very, very sensible. In fact, its pretty much the only reason to marry. See above. You can have love (and the big party with all your mates) without being married, after all. Women are constantly berated on here for not getting married, given the financial benefits. Marriage is actually a legal financial arrangement, not a love contract. Yet here OP is berated for wanting to marry for the financial benefits!

She would be the baddy if she's already decided to leave and simply wants a bigger settlement.

If he is aware she wants to leave I don't blame him for not wanting to marry. As it is I suspect he's quite happy thinking things are ok and what's the point 10 years on.

Working part time or not at all is not being unpaid childcare/domestic labour. Unless you also say that living in the family home is living rent free all bills and meals included.

Marriage is a contract and I'm still staggered by the number of people who don't realise that. In this case it looks as though OP is worse off not being married as DP is wealthy and likely to inherit. If she were the wealthy one she'd be better off as she is.

They own the house (50/50?) and I suspect DP pays more into the mortgage.
If they split he'd be better off dividing the house, paying for childcare and earning his own money. My advice to him would be don't marry. My advice to OP would be to set herself up as an independent financially strong woman. (Unless DP wants to marry her and it's all a misunderstanding).

As for surnames - it really makes no difference to anything

It was absolutely 100% my choice to work part-time @sunflowersandbuttercups. There is absolutely nothing degrading or invaluable about being around to raise my young children. I would take rhe financial hit time and time again to have this sacred time with my kids. My second child of whom was breastfed until 2.5 years, so I place a huge amount of value on the mother being at home. I could go into the ins and outs of all this, the literature I've read, the maternal movements I've been a part of, but I really do not want to go there, as stated very clearly at the start of this thread.

@Pearlsawinger

It was absolutely 100% my choice to work part-time *@sunflowersandbuttercups*. There is absolutely nothing degrading or invaluable about being around to raise my young children. I would take rhe financial hit time and time again to have this sacred time with my kids. My second child of whom was breastfed until 2.5 years, so I place a huge amount of value on the mother being at home. I could go into the ins and outs of all this, the literature I've read, the maternal movements I've been a part of, but I really do not want to go there, as stated very clearly at the start of this thread.

You asked 'What should I do?' I don't know what kinds of responses you were expecting . You don't love him; he doesn't want to marry. You know how vulnerable you are financially. So any decision you make to carry on as you are, you do so knowing where you stand, because he is also as free to 'cut his losses' as you are at any time.

You don't want to discuss it but it is a major part of why I think you are being unreasonable unfortunately. You chose with your eyes open to take the risk and unfortunately it hasn't paid off.

@Pearlsawinger

It was absolutely 100% my choice to work part-time *@sunflowersandbuttercups*. There is absolutely nothing degrading or invaluable about being around to raise my young children. I would take rhe financial hit time and time again to have this sacred time with my kids. My second child of whom was breastfed until 2.5 years, so I place a huge amount of value on the mother being at home. I could go into the ins and outs of all this, the literature I've read, the maternal movements I've been a part of, but I really do not want to go there, as stated very clearly at the start of this thread.

So what is at you’re actually looking for from this thread OP? I’m glad you’re happy with having had all the ‘sacred’ time you’ve had with your kids. Funded by your boyfriend. Posters on here act like it was doing him some kind of favour that he should now pay for but that clearly wasn’t the case, you wanted not to work much. The consequence is that you’re now in a worse financial position but you say you don’t regret it. Ok that’s fine then, so what do you want from the thread. It kind of sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it.

It doesn't matter the ins and outs. You aren't in love with him so leave him. There's really no other option if you want to be happy.

If it wasn’t for that they have already split up, this could have been my best friend’s story.

They postponed their wedding a few times because of an unexpected pregnancy, then wanting to lose the baby weight, then the venue they wanted was full, then another pregnancy. All her friends were silently screaming at the stupidity of it because it was far from a stable relationship but she was adamant they were ‘fine’ and even if they did split up, ‘he wasn’t that sort of guy’

Then the split up, and she got nothing. Zip.
He has £500k equity in a house, erratic self employed earnings and enough time on his hands to insist on roughly 50:50 but not to any schedule to allow her to work properly

He continues to live in his big house with a tiny mortgage, she rents a shoebox with housing benefit, and her mental health is in tatters

If they had been married, she would be mortgage free

it wouldn't make any difference now and that provided we have joint life insurance, joint finances etc, we're covered if something happens to the other one.

Do you actually have joint life insurance, joint finances etc? Have you seen them and understood their respective benefits?

Have you both made wills?

Your choice seems to be to try and make an independent life for yourself now. Or to carry on benefitting as much as you can financially now knowing he could leave you any minute leaving you with nothing.

@Pearlsawinger

It was absolutely 100% my choice to work part-time *@sunflowersandbuttercups*. There is absolutely nothing degrading or invaluable about being around to raise my young children. I would take rhe financial hit time and time again to have this sacred time with my kids. My second child of whom was breastfed until 2.5 years, so I place a huge amount of value on the mother being at home. I could go into the ins and outs of all this, the literature I've read, the maternal movements I've been a part of, but I really do not want to go there, as stated very clearly at the start of this thread.

I agree. And I never once said it was degrading OR invaluable.

But if you choose to do it, you need to make sure you're protected, otherwise you put yourself and your children in a very vulnerable position in the event of death or a break-up.

@sunflowersandbuttercups

Well you can believe that people who are duped by others only have themselves to blame if you wish. I personally think that is a totally bogus argument which means that anyone can treat anyone as crappily as they like and tell themselves they have a clear conscience. I think that's morally bankrupt.

But then I believe in honour. And that includes doing right by the people you enter into partnership with, including in relationships like this. Not saying, well she ain't got that bit of paper so I can fuck off with all the assets if I like and leave her shafted, as she's ' silly'.

Of course it's fine to work part time when your children are young but because you aren't married you have made you and your children very vulnerable financially. If he's used to you picking up the slack with the kids do you envisage a 50:50 split if you do separate? Working full time as a single parent of two small children is hard!

What are your circumstances? Do you own or rent? Do you have any savings or family support? Can you rely on your partner to support his children financially if you split? Remember he is likely to have new relationships and possibly more children in the future.

Is your relationship repairable? Do you want to repair it? Does he?

[quote MiddayMadDog]@sunflowersandbuttercups

Well you can believe that people who are duped by others only have themselves to blame if you wish. I personally think that is a totally bogus argument which means that anyone can treat anyone as crappily as they like and tell themselves they have a clear conscience. I think that's morally bankrupt.

But then I believe in honour. And that includes doing right by the people you enter into partnership with, including in relationships like this. Not saying, well she ain't got that bit of paper so I can fuck off with all the assets if I like and leave her shafted, as she's ' silly'.[/quote]
Well you can believe that people who are duped by others only have themselves to blame if you wish.

Well, I think people need to take some personal responsibility for their own choices, yes. I don't think that's particularly outlandish?

I personally think that is a totally bogus argument which means that anyone can treat anyone as crappily as they like and tell themselves they have a clear conscience. I think that's morally bankrupt.

People's conscience have nothing to do with it. Relationships end for all sorts of reasons - not necessarily because anyone has "treated anyone crappily" - they just end. Protecting yourself in the event of a break-up is just common sense.

But then I believe in honour. And that includes doing right by the people you enter into partnership with, including in relationships like this.

That's a lovely idea, but it won't protect you when it all goes tits up.

Not saying, well she ain't got that bit of paper so I can fuck off with all the assets if I like and leave her shafted, as she's ' silly'

It's not just to do with "shafting people and fucking off" though. People die unexpectedly. Relationships end for a whole load of reasons that aren't because someone is a dick. Protecting yourself is just the smart thing to do - however much you might believe in "honour".

He can make a will, but if he subsequently marries someone else that will means nothing. Can he be trusted to provide for his children? I took time out to raise my children, going back to work when the youngest was one year old. We made that decision so that DH could put in the hours to establish his career. Somebody has to look after the children and there is always a cost to that, whether one or both parents do it, or a paid carer. Presumably the decision to have a family was a joint one?

sunflowersandbuttercups I agree.
And honor won't protect her if husband dies