March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hi Sicario

I actually set up a new March 2021 thread a few days back but its fallen down the threads so it was not seen (although I bumped it a couple of times).

Hi Atilla and Sicario 👋
BUT THE END IS IN SIGHT
^hold on to this Monkey! we will celebrate with you when the glorious day comes🎊🎉

@thanks for setting up the new thread, I get so much support here.

@Ulteregome hanging in. Social worker seen at 10am. Crone was as nice as pie. Three times a day someone will go round and feed the animal. Strangely, enough in preparation for this meeting, she was able to get up, get washed and dressed. Like a Lourdes miracle happened in the night. PMSL.

To us, she was typically vile on the way there and as soon as I shut the front door when social worker saint left. She was angling to stay at ours until the fracture healed but we pointed out she’s better off in her own flat and this is what the frigging care package is FOR. Subtext: fuck right off.

We cannot get her out fast enough. Major sulks on the sofa like a six year old this morning before the meeting. MM has taken her to the hospital to get her broken arm examined at the fracture clinic. I’m looking at the gin.

It’s her birthday today and she was typically ungracious about the present we bought her. She’s a fucking cunt and I can’t wait to see the back of her. She will make our lives hell as punishment for our rejection of her. She doesn’t reflect and see how her behaviour has meant our rejection of her.

I’m so, so, SO happy.

Thank you for the new thread :)

Hi everybody. @AttilaTheMeerkat - sorry I missed the new thread. Do we need to link it over here or shall we just carry on? In the words of Toy Story .... "grab a moving buddy and make sure nobody gets left behind".

Hi Sicario

Carry on with this new thread please.

Those words from Toy Story are lovely

I am absolutely exhausted.

With my bipolar I can conjure up tremendous amounts of energy to get things done so I’ve done all the sorting out of social care and keeping on top of my freelance work and the house. MM has always done his share and he’s dealing with the care of The Hag whilst she’s here. It’s “only” been a week since she arrived with her broken arm.

I think I peaked yesterday with the joyful news of a care package and meeting the social worker. Now the adrenaline has gone (I’m scared the care won’t start soon enough) so I’ve hit the flipside of bipolar which is a brick wall of tiredness. I’m sacking off work and I’m going to lie on my wonderful camp bed (it is a joy!) and read and listen to Radio 3. I feel spent and very low.

I want my normal family - guess who we got to bubble with!!! - and my friends. Just hit loneliness.

Meanwhile, the Hag is downstairs watching Heartbeat at 500 decibels. She’s being much nicer to MM when I’m not around (a plus but it just shows what’s possible). Maybe, it’s her clutching at staying by being nice. Fuck knows, there’s no making sense of her at all. And she ain’t staying. Clearly.

How the hell do people survive living in the same house with this kind of abuse 365 days a year?

This group is an absolute lifeline.

Hi Monkey. The blasting out TV would drive me up the wall. I suppose headphones are out of the question. Taking to your room sounds like the best option. I like taking to my room - it makes me feel safe. Hopefully the care package will come together quickly and you can hit the Hag Eject button.

@Sicario the Hag Eject button has really cheered me up! Thank you. Really made me laugh.

Yes, I’m in my room. I know exactly what you mean about feeling safe. It’s a tad teenage in the spare room/my office but I love my camp bed.

No cheering the Hag up. She’s stony faced on the sofa, MM has just had lunch with her. Still sulking. I faked one of my cluster headaches yesterday to get out of any engagement - gosh, I can feel another one coming on. Lol.

She knows that she’s going and who’s set the wheels in my motion. Me.

I’d never noticed how she asks about my health, but it’s so perfunctory. She’s not really interested in my answers. None of that “that must be painful” or in my case “you don’t let it get you down, do you”. Just waiting for it to be turned round to her. I went on at great length about all the brain scans I’ve had. No response.

Two can play at attention seeking. Lol.

Two calls from social services to me. They are on it!

Triggering a genuine cluster headache with some Green and Blacks now.

Hi 👋 I'm in a bit of a situation and would love some opinions. I'll try and keep it brief! I went NC with DM and her side of the family around 8 years ago because of emotional, psychological and physical abuse (not sexual). I have since had children but I have no support network. The other half of my family live in another country, my partners family aren't interested in helping us, and both of us have developed health issues in the last year. I have kept a very small social circle because I didn't want to be found...other friends have been approached etc.

I am still struggling with not having 'a mum' or any of the support that comes with...especially sharing the joys and help with my children. I find myself wondering if it was really all that bad, and then remember it was....but so were was the good stuff. I also feel much stronger in myself and able to 'see' manipulative behaviour etc now.

She messaged me through an old email recently after years of not trying. What would you do?

@Wick I think for the sake of your sanity avoid. You might be able to see manipulative behaviour better now but the manipulative behaviour doesn’t end. In some ways actually seeing it for what it is makes it far worse, not better. One’s mental health has a huge impact on physical well-being. Better to expand your social circle than invite toxicity back into your life.

Wick

I would ignore any attempts made by your mother now to contact you. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she has not changed. And why contact you now?. She probably wants something from or of you, again ignore it and block this further way of she being able to contact you.

Would also second the recommendation to expand your social circle further and gradually; that can be easier to achieve when your children start preschool. Neither my parents or for that matter my inlaws were of much support re their grandchild and they did not change their overall attitude either. They did between them teach me an abject lesson in how not to behave!.

Hi Wick😊
Agree with everyone else!
You are not privy to what prompted her to contact you and if you were you would probably see that it's not in your interest to respond...
Will she have heard any whispers about your health issues?
If she thinks that you are in any way weakened or vulnerable that will tend to draw her in.... she will know that it's a good time to try and dominate you.
As said, in all likelihood she will not have changed, she may be able to restrain herself and play nice for a while but when she relaxes her old impulses to dominate and abuse will take over.

Thank you for responding, I've read all of them. I know you're all correct. If I was to guess, she's contacting me because she has no 'close' family left (no immediate) and she may have found out the only way she can now contact me is through an old e-mail. There's almost no chance she knows anything about my health. Her message is about missing me and asking to meet. It's short. This isn't her only attempt, she has used her family and friends to contact me, she's tried to contact my friends, but the last time she tried to contact me directly was a few years ago.

My partner thinks that I should use it as a chance to say anything I want to say to her.

My therapist has talked about the possible outcomes in theory. We have talked about that if I were to talk, she would have to admit to what she did. She would then have to attend family therapy with me. Or no deal.

It would both be easier and not easier to do nothing.

I still carry a lot of anger and sadness that I couldn't have a normal Mum/family but I have made a small life for myself....something she said I'd never manage/cope with.

Thanks again, really nice to have contact with people who are or have been in the same boat.

Wick,

I would strongly urge you to ignore this message from your mother; no good to you will come of at all responding to it. That door needs to remain firmly closed; any communication from you is a response and to such disordered of thinking people that is the reward.
Radio silence therefore from you needs to be maintained.

What your partner is proposing here re your mother is simply not going to work; how does he think that will go for you?. You cannot reason with the unreasonable and the rule book re familial relations goes out the window when it comes to dysfunctional families. Anything that you say, no matter how carefully worded, will be taken by her as an attack and toxic people like nothing more than a fight and or the last word. Again she was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she has not changed. She has also never apologised nor has accepted any responsibility her for her actions has she?.

Re your comment that I have separated out:-
"My therapist has talked about the possible outcomes in theory. We have talked about that if I were to talk, she would have to admit to what she did".

That will never happen; toxic people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Abusive people as well more often than not blame the non abusive person i.e. you in this instance for their actions; the old, "well you made me act that way, you were a difficult child" crap excuse or versions thereof.

"She would then have to attend family therapy with me. Or no deal".

A person should NEVER attend joint family therapy sessions with their abuser. You are not emotionally safe enough. The non abuser would co-operates but the abuser never does and the abuser could also try to get the counsellor on their side by manipulation. If your therapist has suggested this, even theoretically, I would be thinking about finding someone else to work with and or reporting them to their governing body (if BACP registered).

Its not your fault your mother is the ways she is and you did not make her that way. You will ultimately need to grieve for the relationship you should have had with your mother rather than the one you actually got. Work also on any residual FOG you carry (fear, obligation and guilt).

Welcome, Wick. I'm also of the opinion to stay clear. I know it's hard and that it causes all sorts of internal conflicts with oneself. You have made your own little family, and that's perfect.

Also with mother's day coming up, I expect lots of us will be experiencing internal conflict.

The best thing to do with mother's day on this thread is to honour ourselves by being the best versions of us we can be. And we are indeed bloody well good enough.

Its somewhat easier for me as my own mother does not like Mother's day but even so I would not readily buy her a card or flowers.

I’ve amused myself today by buying The Hag the most saccharine Mother’s Day card ever (MM is at home with the Hag in case she has a fall). It’s lurid pink and looks like Dame Barbara Cartland has exploded. It reads like one of her novels. I was rocking back and forth with laughter in the cards aisle in Tesco. People were giving me strange looks.

It will feed the narcissist. In close proximity with her, I realise how emotionally stunted she is. Yesterday she was talking to MM about his boss. “Does she know about me?”. “Monkey, has your mum asked about me?” “Has so and so asked about me?”

The contrast with my mum? Humorous card and a Fitbit. A brisk walk planned with a coffee.

I feel for anyone dealing with the emotions of Mother’s Day. Hopefully, the Hag will be back in her flat by then.

I am not posting to offer advice, but hope those who do can find it. One of my family members had an abusive relationship with a now deceased family member and would have valued a predecessor of this thread, had MN existed last century.

I posted at the tail end of the last thread regarding my enmeshed family. Basically both of my parents were raised in enmeshed families. My DM’s family were in particular were very tangled up in each other’s lives. This has resulted in my parents, but in particular my DM, clinging to DB and I for dear life and thwarting any attempts to be fully independent. She expects to be in constant contact with us, if not face to face the via text or social media. She uses gifts and money as a mean to manipulate us and make us feel obligated to her.

Recently DM decided she would like to live on the same eststae as DB and DSIL. This wasn’t to downsize, the houses are the same size as the one she lives in, just newer. She was genuinely shocked when I pointed out that maybe they didn’t want her to live right next to them. Thankfully DF has put a stop to this by saying he doesn’t want to go and live there. But this is just an example of what we have to put up with.

There is more. DM has never been emotionally available to us, growing up she was sulky unpredictable and moody. She had a stressful job and would take her bad days out on us. We never knew what we’d get coming home from school. She has never really encouraged us with hobbies. She put us both off going away to Uni, which resulted in my staying at home and commenting and DB not going at all and instead doing an apprenticeship.

I feel her self esteem is dependent on us being dependent on her. It causes her genuine distress to think of us not needing her, when in fact it just means we need her in a different way if that makes sense?

On the last great a few kind posters suggested that maybe we were being manouvered into place ready to fulfill carer roles when the time comes, and funnily enough I have long believed that I am being groomed to take care of them in old age. In fact I’ve even joked about it. DM’s mother in particular was very demanding and would fake illnesses and have ‘funny turns’ just before any of her children were planning to go away on holiday.

So here we are. I dread what she’s going to be like at 80 because if she’s anything like her own mother she will be a nightmare.

Hi Cactus, now that you're aware of her underlying agenda do you think you'll be able to put in place boundaries and strategies, perhaps start with basic things like not engaging on health issues except perhaps to point her towards professionals?

@Wick I agree with @AttilaTheMeerkat on the family therapy. The prospect of making yourself so vulnerable in a situation where the professional will presumably have no prior knowledge of the situation or the relationships involved is not a good or a healthy one, and I have always point blank refused to participate (I have had pretty massive panic attacks just at the though before). It is just another forum for them to manipulate, dominate and get validation and unless and until they are prepared to recognise who they are and what they have done and are willing to try to change or make up for it it will not help anyone else.

Currently in a bit of a Catch-22 situation myself as my mother has taken back various of her second-hand clothes (which she will not fit into again for a million years) and also taken away and hidden my handbag before locking me into the house, so I can't really get anywhere. I am in therapy and AA and reading about one self-help book every day so I can't get away unless I run away at midnight and leave the rest of my personal possessions, some of which I need to do my job and my studying. The problem is that quite a lot of getting well seems to involve doing the exact opposite of what is happening here. If I do ever get away I have learned my lesson and everything is going to change - my name, my number, my bank account, probably my job. Sorry, not really looking for advice as there is so much sensible advice here and I know it's my own stupid fault for ending up in this situation, but it's so dispiriting to be here all over again.

@Ulteregome

Hi Cactus, now that you're aware of her underlying agenda do you think you'll be able to put in place boundaries and strategies, perhaps start with basic things like not engaging on health issues except perhaps to point her towards professionals?

Hi, thanks for responding. To answer your question she is very sensitive of what she perceives to be criticism or people telling her what to do, even if it’s just advice. She has no interest in making things better for herself or taking any advice offered on board.

I’ve actually thought for a very long time that DM has undiagnosed mental health problems and would really benefit from counselling. She struggles to manage stress and self medictates with alcohol when things get tough. That’s what bothers me. If we distance ourselves what if she drinks herself to death? I actually think this is a possibility. Anything even remotely stressful results in her downing a bottle of wine. Sometimes even more than one.

She doesn’t understand boundaries I don’t tbink.

"If we distance ourselves what if she drinks herself to death? I actually think this is a possibility".

Do you think your mother is an alcoholic?. She certainly has an unhealthy relationship with alcohol but that is not of your doing either.
You are still not responsible for her ultimately, she is. I daresay too that your mother will never sit in front of a therapist because she likely thinks there is nothing wrong with her. Its all everyone else's fault in her head, never her own. As you have also stated she really does have no interest in making things better for herself at all.

We cannot save our mothers from their pain. Being a rescuer and or a saviour in a relationship never works. And you are also correct in that she does not understand boundaries either.

www.bethanywebster.com/blog/we-cant-save-our-mothers-from-their-pain/ is a good article about the enmeshed mother and daughter relationship.