March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Loonymoony the extravagant gifts are typical of narcs. It's about them, not your children. And narcs have favourites based on the narc supply they get. My MIL (the Hag, an abusive witch ) does exactly the same. No contact then throws money at the DGC the children of her equally hated SIL (she stole GB) it's about her demonstrating her power and her as an amazing GM.

Maybe, you could invent dodgy wifi on Xmas day?

The gifts aren’t extravagant as such, but there’s quite a lot of them - like 6-8 things per child per birthday.

I have thought about asking her to send less, or just to contribute a small voucher to a shop the DC likes instead, but can’t find the right words. I don’t want to presume she’s getting them anything, then I also don’t want to make it sound like I expect her to get them something and then mis-set her expectations that we’ll then call her.

I have thought about trying to explain “presents when we are barely in touch feels strange, so please save your time and money” but then it really feels like I’m burning the only semblance of contact that we do have. And I suspect she’ll relish this as she’d then be able to play the victim even more (“I tried but they even rejected my gifts, I’m not even allowed to send presents to my grandchildren anymore”).

Damned if I do, damned if I don’t. It’s so complicated. We have a dc birthday coming up, so this is on my mind a lot right now.

Monkey is correct here; its all about your mother here rather than what your children want. Narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want. That way of thinking also applies to presents for your children. If you ask her to send less she'll instead send more and bigger things. Presents too should come with ribbons, not strings. She uses those as a hoovering technique; she is not going to let go of you and in turn your kids that easily. Your kids are an idea source of narcissistic supply for her.

If a friend treated you like this, what would you reaction be?.

She has trained you and you are still very much jumping to her tune by seeking her approval, approval she will never give you. You need to drop the rope that she holds out to you entirely; do not engage with her at all. I would cease all the video calls as of now and not acknowledge any items she sends. Acknowledging items too keeps a door open that should otherwise remain closed.

Oh the joy. Everything conducted on the pavement.

I think The Hag thinks she’s punishing/guilt-tripping us by not coming in the house. Nope. Or, maybe, it’s dawned on her that I don’t want her here after a hellish 10 weeks when she stayed here. Or, maybe, she knows the tables have turned. Or, maybe, she’s painting me as the ‘evil DIL’ to Mr Monkey and his BIL. Fuck knows. Past caring.

I stayed in the back garden happily stencilling garden furniture so avoided the moan/spleen fest.

I imagine if she came into the garden this furniture would be viewed as weird/self-indulgent.

I’m really proud of myself from disengaging from her and going LC. I’m nearly at NC.

Despite the rants here (years of pain - that I’ve suppressed - coming out and my utter pain/anger at seeing what she’s done to Mr Monkey leaving him with low self-esteem, nightmares, PTSD, and a spell in psychiatric hospital after a breakdown before we met), I feel, in general, much better for not seeing her. Yes, she can still press my buttons but the buttons are further from her reach. I hope I’m an ‘getting there’ positive example of trying to go LC.

I know, I know. I feel bad Atilla as you’ve typed all this out to me before but thank you again. The bit around hoovering - indeed, I can feel that the gifts are a means of staying in touch.

I want to say to her “I would much rather you spend time on trying to fix our relationship than sending presents” but then that also makes it look like I’m opening the door to a reconciliation… which I’m not, she won’t change so I just have to accept who she is and whether I accept all of that back into my life…. And currently, I don’t….

Hi @MonkeyfromManchesterim still loving the way you write. Dont answer if toi nosey but what role did your dh father have in the abuse by the hag. Im still reeling from a call to my parents theyvare utterly vile. The level if passive aggression, aggression and bile that spews from them is awful

I really think they especially my m lack any empathy are totally self aborbed and hyper critical of everything and everyone. It seems to get worse the older they get they are in their 80s. I do grey rock but it still upsets and damages me listening to their vile onslaught. Ive put it in my diary and plan not to speak to them for another 6 weeks, mentally i just cant deal with her. I do have 2 sisters that feel the same so we do support each other. Do you ever stop grieving for a nice and loving mum instead of a torrent of critisism. Is it a narc trait to always be right and unable to consider different points of view without getting aggressive. My mum was going on about the vaccine and my teens. Cue why am i filling their heads with rubbish, 17 and 19 well able to decide themselves. If i point out that i dont agree ir dont like what she says its oh right then, do you think so in a really aggressive way or the worst she if pulled up will laugh in that vile way, i feel like i could implode with suppressed rage. How dies anyone cope with this. I do grey rock as i dont want conflict but i still feel crap. What is the best reply to blatant passive aggression i just dont have the tools.
Thankyou again for this wonderful wise thread. Best help on the internet here xx

@Coconut80 like you, this place keeps me sane. Mr Monkey’s dad was a really lovely guy who died when MM was 8. The Hag played out all the emotional abuse with him but he was a good dad. When he died, she wouldn’t let him put a photo of his dad on his bedside table. THAT’s one of the hardest thing I've heard from MM. From that moment on, everything got worse and she manipulated BIL not to join the Navy aged 17 (his dream) but to stay with her. She's a witch. We've just had a series of calls because her new mobile isn't working. MM can spare the time to go round on Tuesdsy. Cue passive-aggressive huff where she was ‘going to walk round’ which is cue for MM to junk his chilled Sunday and go round. He didn't take the bait. She's not used her mobile in 3 weeks - this is about control. The self-obsession is endless.

I'm really sorry to hear about your parents. I don’t think abusers mellow with age (Hag has got worse). I think they feel more helpless and lash out more. Good on you for avoiding them. The current abuse takes you back to a damaged childhood (MM has that) I've found writing it down really helpful because in black and white, it’s even more blatant. My mantra is - would you take this from a friend? No. A partner? That's helped me box off The Hag.

We deserve good lives and these people are determined to shit all over our aspirations and happiness. We can win this battle. It's hard but we can do it. This forum is a life-line for so many of us.

@monkey thankyou for replying poor thing losing his dad at that age and being left with the hag. She sounds totally off the scale vile. You sound like a wonderful calming support for him. My dh is my rock he is calm and can talk me down when im catastrophising. It is utter shit having a narc mother but like you say this thread is my sanity. I cant tell any if my friends in real life what she is like except shes hyper critical and difficult and it is her choice to behave that way. I fully blame my enabler dad too he never has reigned her in as long as hes not getting the crap from her he is happy. We do deserve happiness and it is a choice to choose to be happy and make the most out of your life. Rather than choosing to be bitter and make nasty comments about everything. Solidarity ladies we are all doing brilliantly xx

@Coconut80 I sometimes feel bad about bitching about The Hag and then I think 1) I don’t say (very much) of what I think of her to her (except when she was in our house and being HIDEOUS for 10 weeks 2) where can I put this? MM is amazing to get through this. Like your other half, he’s amazing.

She phoned AGAIN when I was lying in the garden to complain about him putting the numbers for her family in her new phone ‘what did you do that for?’ (Er, cause you’re always whining that no one rings you) and THEN BIL phoned to ask the same question. (I’m starting to see him now as her enabler)

I know what you mean about people not being able to imagine how bad it is. It’s like a Misery Memoir! Xxx

Thanks @Sicario @Loonymoony @MonkeyfromManchester for your kind and helpful replies, they've given me some food for thought. I was at a low ebb this morning and it really helped to have an external perspective on what happened. I do think my mum has some fairly substantial narcissist traits although in some ways they are quite subtle. I think I need to get to a point where I no longer expect any emotional support from her, as it's the hoping for it and then feeling let down which I find so painful. Definitely doesn't help being heavily pregnant and hormonal! Fortunately I'm lucky enough to have a supportive DH although I don't think really understands the depth/complexity of my emotions recently regarding my mum. I think I will mention the tearfulness and low mood to my midwife this week and see if they are able to put some kind of support in place regarding my mental health- I feel as though I owe it to my kids to look after myself. Thanks again and to you all

I just want to put it out there that I've spent the evening eating a massive bakewell tart to myself. Like family-sized situation. Sometimes on a Sunday I think about regular families not at war who have Sunday lunch together. Then I come here and read/share all our stories.

Solidarity to all

@OMeOMy well done for asking for help, something I find pretty difficult, so bloody good for you.

@Sicario yes it’s tough wondering what kidnap family life is like. But Bakewell tarts are amazeballs.

Kidnap?! Should say normal!

@Sicario please send Bakewell tart to Manchester!

@Comeinoutoftherain

I'm sorry to those that are having a tough time of it at the moment. I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said by more eloquent posters.

@Iamaperiwinkle - I hope you are ok, it must be so hard living in such close proximity to your parents. I understand the ongoing wish to be able to have a relationship with them; but I suspect @AttilaTheMeerkat is right (as usual) and such a relationship would only make your life more miserable.

@CeciledeVolanges - how are you doing? I haven't seen you post in a while.

I'm feeling a bit of lingering sadness at the moment for the relationship I thought/wished I had with M.

The hard part of all the therapy I had, is that I'm not angry anymore. I understand that she's wired the way she is, and cannot be anything different.

I have done the hard work and I honestly forgive her for the way I was treated as a child. She did her best, and unfortunately her best fell short in painful ways, because of her upbringing.

If I didn't have children I think I could maintain a distant but relatively cordial relationship with her (most of the time).

But I do have children, and I've seen far too many times that she is incapable of correcting her mistakes, and was already beginning to treat my children the same way.

Plus she threatened court for access to the children, rather than actually accept that there might be a problem. Then backed out when I agreed to it, and put my side across. I was apparently inappropriate for daring to speak to her like that (honestly and openly, and respectfully).

We moved house (and then moved again - but keeping our house) and recently she's been posting about how she's been out nearby (when she shouldn't know where the house is). Not sure how the cat is out of the bag - but it doesn't really matter as I'm not there at the moment.

I'm sad because I wish there was a fix, but there isn't one. I've had to basically cut out my entire family because of endless flying monkeys.

I know logically that it's the right decision, but I wish it didn't have to be the only decision.

My MIL appears to have forgotten that we aren't in contact (she's getting older and a little forgetful) and asked how my family were doing with Covid. I was noncommittal but felt that ache at knowing that I'm going to have to say (again) that we aren't in contact.

Its easier with new people, I just say I'm not that close to my family and no one even bats an eyelid. It's those people that know about the falls outs that make it hard.

I wonder if it is time for a bit more therapy, or whether these feelings will just ebb and flow a little from time to time.

Sorry, random musings today. x

@Comeinoutoftherain bless you for thinking of me.

I feel so selfish for posting without catching up with the thread so I will send love to you all and keep it brief.

Basically my parents are still blocked, I'm still in my house, been making some progress with my degree after my family have tried to stop me all year and gaslight me out of it.

Otherwise, I'm not too well. I ended up in the ITU with kidney failure and multiple calls to the cardiac arrest team about two weeks ago. I'm barely sleeping due to hallucinatory nightmares about my parents every single night. I feel broken, and toxic, and wondering when it will ever end, honestly. Even if all of that goes away I'm going to spend my whole life having once been an alcoholic, having once copied my parents' behaviours unconsciously, covered in scars, unable to have relationships, and so on. Sorry not to be more hopeful or positive, or reply to anyone else. I've been thinking of you all but too much of a coward to come on this thread. But I am still alive, just.

I am still alive
Hey Cecile (((💗))) I have also wondered how you've been doing, so sorry to hear about these health problems
you have been battered and bruised by life, you dont deserve to be, it is very tough to live with the accumulation of damage
you deserve a better life Cecile, it's good that you are making progress with your degree, well done!
What about sleep, what strategies are there that might help?

@CeciledeVolanges

I'm sorry you have been so sick. I know it must feel utterly hopeless right now, but please keep putting one foot in front of the other.

You will get better, you will get stronger and you will heal.

You've made huge changes and I'm so proud of you for pushing through.

You've got this, and we are here for you xx

@ceciledeVolanges, even by recognising that you were a former ...., had a ...., was a...is progress because it's putting it in the past enabling you to start separating it from your future so you've made massive progress on that alone even if it doesn't feel like it

Thanks everyone for your messages.

I think not being able to sleep is adding to everything really horribly, yesterday I just kept dissolving into tears at everything. I also keep crying at the most stupid things, like today I got an email from a site I subscribe to saying "you were doing the best you had with the tools you had" and just started crying again! It's ridiculous because it's so impersonal.

You all are an amazing bunch of people (hope "bunch" isn't too derogatory) and I regret being absent from this page for a while! I've read back a bit this morning and will keep up in future.

I don’t know your backstory @CeciledeVolanges but you sound incredibly strong actually, abd like you’ve got a heck of a lot to work through….

Something sad happened in my DM’s life last week, so I sent her a quick text saying I was sorry to hear that, hope she’s ok. Nothing back. I guess i wanted to show her that despite all she thinks, I do care about her, and that whilst our communication has completely broken down, I still care how how she feels.

I suspect it’s not enough. That if I really cared I wouldn’t be punishing her….

@LoonyMoony thank you. This thread is full of incredibly strong and resilient (mostly) women and next to them I'm a car crash! You're right that I've got a lot to work through though.

You did something very kind and brave there by messaging your mother. Unfortunately you're spot on that her reaction will probably be that. Nothing is ever enough and even if your every word and action is directed at placating them they will still set up tests to make you prove your devotion. Even then it won't be enough. Especially when sad things happen - only they are allowed to be sad and it has to be all about comforting them and attending to their drama.

I think the only thing to do is keep protecting yourself and living for yourself and those you love, while knowing you've done the right thing and have the moral high ground here.

Have you met my mother @CeciledeVolanges?! You are sooooo right.

I just wonder where it all ends? Is this it now? We just don’t speak? And the cracks become canyons? Is that really the way it has to be?

Hi LoonyMoony

I can only echo entirely what Cecile wrote here and particularly with reference to the last sentence in this paragraph she wrote:-

"You did something very kind and brave there by messaging your mother. Unfortunately you're spot on that her reaction will probably be that. Nothing is ever enough and even if your every word and action is directed at placating them they will still set up tests to make you prove your devotion. Even then it won't be enough. Especially when sad things happen - only they are allowed to be sad and it has to be all about comforting them and attending to their drama".

Had a not too dissimilar experience with narcissist MIL some years back when a sad family event occurred. My words (and all I said that I was very sorry to hear about FIL) meant less than sod all to her. And in this instance she further went onto make what was happening all about her along with trying to involve further people in her drama.

You need to keep emotional distance from her also

@LoonyMoony for the moment it might have to be. Unfortunately a lot of features of a narcissistic personality are the same things which make it impossible for them to realise they have a problem, come to terms with their effect on other people, and put any work in to change. It is a process of grief, accepting that the parent that you deserved and needed isn't ever going to exist. The main consolation is that it's not your fault, you have done nothing wrong and there is nothing wrong with you. You can live a happier and healthier life without her draining your energy constantly, and surround yourself with people who lift you up rather than pulling you down.