March 2021 Well we took you to Stately Homes thread

[Sicario]

It's now March 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4030633-September-2020-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=40

Forerunning threads:
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Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Cecile

Where do you think your ghastly mother has hidden away your handbag?.

Can you surreptiously gather some items to getaway during hours of darkness?. Stuff can be replaced and you really do need to get the hell out of there before they destroy you further. Your so called parents are keeping you prisoner in this house of horrors and that is a crime. Can you e-mail an organisation like Womens Aid safely?.

@Cactus1982 if she drinks herself to death or does harm to herself in any other way, that is her responsibility. If it makes you feel any better, I am not proud of it but I have abused alcohol to a significant degree over the years and a bottle of wine a day does not kill you for a long while. My aunt is also a serious alcoholic and has managed not to die yet. In both of our cases it is our responsibility to stay sober and well. My mother also threatens to kill herself whenever someone doesn't do what she wants and has never harmed a hair on her own head. I think there is a strong instinct of self-preservation in amongst all the narcissism, somehow, and would be very interested to hear what others think about that?

@AttilaTheMeerkat I think she's hidden it with my grandparents or in their other house. My only reasonable course out is I think to wait until they've given it back or at least left the door open, or just move out in due course, because they've got my whole family and more problematically my employers convinced I'm insane and a danger to myself. It's a bit shit but having outside people to talk to convinces me it's not entirely in my head!

Yes, I think she’s probably a functioning alcoholic.

Cecile

Its not you, its them and what they are doing here to you is coercive control which itself is a crime.

I do not think you will get your bag back readily if at all. Don't forget all that stuff can be replaced and you can report the contents as stolen but I would do that only after you have left there. You need to leave there asap.

Do you think they have managed to convince your employers you are insane?. Have you ever talked with HR?.

Emotionally abusive people like your mother always threaten to kill themselves to get their own way.

She struggles to manage stress and self medictates with alcohol when things get tough. That’s what bothers me
But why does it bother you? It's her choice, let her do her own thing, you don't have to act as guardian.

@Cactus1982 bloody nightmare for you. You get no space. I can’t imagine what that’s like. My folks were really encouraging that we do our thing which was great. My dad died about 13 years ago and my mum is busy with her own life and spending our inheritance (lol - she says this and we’re glad she has a good life)

I think you’re right about being lined up - it’s like you’re entitled to no life. The Hag is like this. Her mother was a total fucking witch - I never had the pleasure, thank fuck. She even moved the family (The Hag, three sons) into her one bedroom flat and expected to be waited on hand and foot after Mr Monkey’s dad died when he was eight. It’s like a misery memoir. Apparently, it was non stop shouting and violence. Mr Monkey is wonderful, but I think he has CPTSD and I’m encouraging him to get therapy. He has terrible nightmares and flinches if I make sudden movements. I must admit I flinch when I hear the Hag sometimes as there’s a seething mass of anger just under the surface.

These people are so, so screwed up.

@Cactus1982 they have NO boundaries where you’re concerned and are hugely resentful of advice. Frigging nightmare with their self-centredness.

@CeciledeVolanges I’m so sorry you are having such a horrendous time.

Thanks @MonkeyfromManchester, I'm sorry you're going through it as well, it's absolutely the opposite of deserved by the sounds of it! I'm so glad the end is in sight. Flinching at sudden movements and having nightmares does sound a lot like CPTSD, I have it as well and that is one of the worst aspects. Even when I tried NC I still saw my mother in my dreams every night (that does sound a bit silly, feel free to laugh) and I jump at sudden noises or movements to an extent which is ridiculous, loads of people laugh at me when it happens. Not that I mind making light of it!

@Ulteregome

She struggles to manage stress and self medictates with alcohol when things get tough. That’s what bothers me But why does it bother you? It's her choice, let her do her own thing, you don't have to act as guardian.

You are right, but it’s still so hard to detach. I know it’s her problem and not mine.

but it’s still so hard to detach
I know, we've been trained to feel a certain duty/obligation etc towards parents and it's hard to resist the impulse to follow training.
Maybe it never really goes, but if you can at least understand that these are impulses that were installed since childhood then you can examine them and think about whether this is reasonable, productive etc

Hello lovely ladies as mother's day approaches I've found myself as usual triggered and feeling very unsettled. I am vvvvLC with my narc DM and enabler father. I feel very teary reading elsewhere reading about nice and kind mothers. With narcs why do they deliberately hurt you is it for the attention or purely sadistic. I am still getting over a phone call with my mother. She can no longer get a reaction from me so she starts on my kids as she know I will defend them to the hilt and not let her rip them apart like she does to me. Kids are 16 and 19. Classically my worst crime in life is to be fat, she controls her portions at 80 still. It sounds innocuous but I know you'll get it, three times she said on the phone re ds oh his face is very round he's certainly filled out, smirking and saying yes his face is verrry round. Instantly I was defensive then after being barbed she's like oh well its nothing dismissing me completely.

It took me 2 weeks to settle after the call tieing myself in knots why does she feel the need to constantly criticise and hurt me. She has never given me a compliment or praise in my whole life, same with my sisters. My self esteem is terrible I spend far too long trying to find strategies to cope and covid and lc can help. I just can't fathom why a grown woman your mother would deliberately hurt you she is utterly bilious and critical about me. I was labelled the difficult child from birth and my sisters older than me were encouraged to join in. I really want to challenge her and tell her what a nasty vile cow she is and ask why was I labelled difficult and to tell her how she has hurt and damaged me. I know it is futile but I am still terrified of her rages she was verbally and physically abusive to me.
I am nearly 50 and I really want nothing to do with either parent as they are vile but then I always question myself and somehow feel I'm the one with the problem. She is hot and cold all nicely in emails then vile other days. I want no part of it
I realise the example I've given is minor but in the context of a lifetime of barbs and criticism and put downs I don't want to have to always be the bigger person letting cruel comments wash over me.
Thank you to this thread for being fantastic, I've read it for years and thank you for letting me spew it all out xx

Hi Coconut
Reading your post puts me in mind of my own 'dear' mother a more contemptuous poisonous Gorgon you could never wish to meet!
No point challenging them, dont waste your breath, she isnt worth the time and energy and she doesnt deserve the attention!
If she can't behave over the phone how about putting her on email only? Less triggering and much easier to be businesslike, would it be possible to think of her not as a parent (she hardly deserves the term after all) but as a more distant relative?
I know it's all easier said than done and it is very dismaying to still feel so intimidated by a parent.
I find that (out of earshot) loudly speaking about them in very caustic and language using the worst expletives helps, especially if you can find your inner east end gangster voice (or similar)

I’ve always thought this thread the most toxic thing on Mumsnet
Dropping into a support thread to tell us that you find it toxic, I wonder what your motivation is here? I think you may be the same poster who made similar remarks in the previous thread? are you still reporting our posts in hopes of getting the threads taken down?

Thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat and @CeciledeVolanges and @Sicario (and before posters I didn't mention before) You're all right. I won't respond to her.

Do any of you question if it was really that bad? For me the worst episode landed me in hospital with the doctors telling me I was lucky to be alive and in the least not paralysed. The police described the attack as 'sustained and brutal' but...it's not the same as other attacks I've seen the results of on TV even though they used the same description 'sustained and brutal'. Also, there were many good things. She has a good sense of humour and I was given loads of opportunities (including private education) and lots of experiences. I seem to go through this whole argument in my head sometimes until I exhaust myself. This cycle happens every now and then...does it go away? Is there something I can do to stop it? Thank you so much for the advice and support 🙏

There were many good things
Wick, this is how I think it works in her mind ...she does the good things to make herself feel better about the abuse that she subjected you to, even the good things were done for her benefit ....she did the good things so that she could focus on that and pretend that it somehow obscures the abuse
I think it's also a kind of hush money a way of bribing you into pretending she's a good mother
she thinks the good times cancel out the abuse
Actually it makes it worse, confuses the child, you don't know up from down, you never know what to expect, you are always disorientated and off balance, children need stability and constancy
A kind of trauma bond is formed, it can be difficult to untangle
It sounds extremely bad Wick, hard to believe a parent can treat a child like that, imo because it's hard to believe the impulse is often to try and rationalize it away, it's too disturbing, we have a reluctance to look at it

@Coconut80

Hello lovely ladies as mother's day approaches I've found myself as usual triggered and feeling very unsettled. I am vvvvLC with my narc DM and enabler father. I feel very teary reading elsewhere reading about nice and kind mothers. With narcs why do they deliberately hurt you is it for the attention or purely sadistic. I am still getting over a phone call with my mother. She can no longer get a reaction from me so she starts on my kids as she know I will defend them to the hilt and not let her rip them apart like she does to me. Kids are 16 and 19. Classically my worst crime in life is to be fat, she controls her portions at 80 still. It sounds innocuous but I know you'll get it, three times she said on the phone re ds oh his face is very round he's certainly filled out, smirking and saying yes his face is verrry round. Instantly I was defensive then after being barbed she's like oh well its nothing dismissing me completely.

It took me 2 weeks to settle after the call tieing myself in knots why does she feel the need to constantly criticise and hurt me. She has never given me a compliment or praise in my whole life, same with my sisters. My self esteem is terrible I spend far too long trying to find strategies to cope and covid and lc can help. I just can't fathom why a grown woman your mother would deliberately hurt you she is utterly bilious and critical about me. I was labelled the difficult child from birth and my sisters older than me were encouraged to join in. I really want to challenge her and tell her what a nasty vile cow she is and ask why was I labelled difficult and to tell her how she has hurt and damaged me. I know it is futile but I am still terrified of her rages she was verbally and physically abusive to me.
I am nearly 50 and I really want nothing to do with either parent as they are vile but then I always question myself and somehow feel I'm the one with the problem. She is hot and cold all nicely in emails then vile other days. I want no part of it
I realise the example I've given is minor but in the context of a lifetime of barbs and criticism and put downs I don't want to have to always be the bigger person letting cruel comments wash over me.
Thank you to this thread for being fantastic, I've read it for years and thank you for letting me spew it all out xx

I dip in and out of these threads and can so sympathise with how you feel. My mother is not as bad as yours, but the criticism and spiteful ness is the same. Looking for a reaction, trying to hurt me. The crunch point came when she demanded I come over to look at a letter she had been sent. I dropped everything and went over, only to find it was completely unimportant. The conversation about my nieces got turned into an attack on me and I left , feeling very upset. She literally stood by the door as I left, openly gloating. My OH was there and he was just horrified. This was before the first lockdown I didn’t speak to her for a year after the event. Tried to go round and patch things up a year later. The second time we met she made spiteful remarks again. I am now barely speaking to her.

Yes, elderly people can be nasty and tactless, but my mother has been unkind all my life. Like yours she never praises unless in a very fake way. I have always been the black sheep. It would be easier to forgive if there wasn’t a whole lifetime of hurt in the relationship. I understand how you feel.

@Coconut80 I've just written a reply and deleted it! So sorry if this is a double post. Basically what I was trying to say is that it sounds like they are viewing you just as an object/puppet/extension of themselves and trying to control you, with the ultimate object of getting everyone to like them and think the best of them. As a result, they project their insecurities onto you and try to control you into conformity with them. It can be so hurtful and harmful because it denies you as a person who is independent and can make their own choices as to values and actions. Sorry, I think I put it better the first time! But hopefully you get what I was saying :)
@wick I'm so sorry that happened to you. In some ways, you have very strong proof to rely on that it was exactly as bad as you thought, and really it sounds like it crossed a line nobody can ever come back from. If an ex-husband had done that to you, you would probably be granted a restraining order, exclusive possession of the house, his contact with children would be limited and this despite the fact that police tend to underplay domestic violence, which makes your proof doubly convincing. It also sounds like they have kept you entrapped and obligated using money (presumably paying for private education and/or experiences) which is very easily done and doesn't really cost much apart from money. We literally don't allow animals to be treated the way she treated you, no matter how well they are kept, so why on earth would it be different for a human being?

@Ulteregome I see what you're saying, it's just really difficult to accept at times.

Coconut

I would further lower all contact levels with your parents to a point of zero sum. Neither bring anything positive into your life and both of them have failed abjectly as parents. Your dad is a weak man who has failed to protect you from his wife's excesses of behaviour; he is really the secondary abuser.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles; they made you the scapegoat for all their inherent ills. As a result your children get scapegoated as well.

Re your comment:-
"With narcs why do they deliberately hurt you is it for the attention or purely sadistic".

Except for odd spells of heady euphoria unrelated to anything you can see, their affective range is mediocre-fake-normal to hell-on-Earth. They will sometimes lie low and be quiet, actually passive and dependent - this is as good as it gets with narcissists. They are incapable of loving conduct towards anyone or anything, so they do not have the capacity for simple pleasure, beyond the satisfaction of bodily needs. There is only one way to please a narcissist (and it won't please you): that is to indulge their every whim, cater to their tiniest impulses, bend to their views on every little thing. There's only one way to get decent treatment from narcissists: keep your distance.

Run for cover too when they start acting normal, maybe expressing a becoming self-doubt or even acknowledging some little fault of their own, such as saying they now realize that they haven't treated you right or that they took advantage of you before. They're just softening you up for something really nasty. These people are past masters of "come closer so I can hurt you again."

Wick

Thankfully you survived. Did the police take no further action here against your mother?. What level of support have you received since?.

Many toxic parents will and indeed do attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour.

Sorry for interrupting the flow of other conversations but I just wanted to sense-check something I am going to try to talk about with my therapist this week.
Basically my parents have no boundaries and are extremely controlling, but I'm living in their house right now and have in the recent past been extremely self-destructive in various ways, most recently with alcohol. I am not proud of it and am trying to change, and have done for several years. My dad would point out that I haven't suddenly got better by not talking to my family (although my mum would still contact me or my employers or friends very often so it wasn't exactly NC) so I can't argue that they are bad for me.
I don't want to go on and on about it but I really think at the very least they need to observe some boundaries and not control everything before I am going to make much progress with my therapy, etc. As I'm sure most of you are excellent parents I was just wondering if the following are acceptable or unacceptable in terms of boundaries?
First of all, as I've mentioned before, they have my handbag with all my necessities such as debit card, keys, and I am locked in the house. My mum was saying yesterday that she wasn't sure she could trust me to be here alone while they were both out (even if I'm locked in) but I would be actively locked in with her "secret" stash of alcohol. While she was talking my dad came in and surreptitiously closed the drawer all the cans were hidden in so he knows very well this is going on even while she boasts about not drinking any more.
They also really constantly use my name, every sentence, which I have repeatedly asked them not to do because at that frequency it is just bizarre and comes across as them talking down to me and telling me off. My dad also tells me I have no right to ask people not to come into my room, go through my stuff or take my stuff (e.g. clothes) because I haven't always done what they have said and because of my self-destructive behaviour. I would say that it is precisely because of this invasive and controlling behaviour that I want to blot things out with alcohol (I started drinking because it at least stopped repetitive nightmares about being trapped in places with my mother and things like that, I know that's not a justification but it was the reasoning) and I am definitely not going to get boundaries or improve self-esteem in this situation. I'm also prepared to accept that I am being completely ridiculous. I'm 28 years old and full-time employed and studying, by the way. Sorry to have gone on for such a long time about such trivial things, the gaslighting here is really constant and I find it quite hard to keep track of day to day reality in my own life let alone what is objectively reasonable!

@ultegome @golightlyontheEarth @ceciledevolanges @AttilaTheMeerkat

Thank you ladies for the understanding, validation and great advice you have given me. I find it very socially isolating not being able to tell people my mum is a cow because most of my friends mothers are nice kind and supportive. I feel it reflects on me somehow that I want nothing to do with her

Totally get the extension of them she gets irate if I say I no longer like nicola sturgeon and goes on the offensive. She will deliberately pronounce words wrong so we comment then she goes Irate like preeemier Inn rather than Premier Inn. She was always pointing out spelling werrors in menus to waitresses mortifying.
After the last call I do struggle with my mental health and am prone to depression so have decided I will never expose myself to having them for Christmas again, I will never suggest a meet up as it is always an ordeal with weeks of fallout for me sisters feel the same. My duty phonecall I've reduced to fortnightly and my dh will do alternate calls. I can't think much else I can do